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#Post#: 3068--------------------------------------------------
Defending Your Position
By: Tech G Date: May 28, 2017, 6:59 pm
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Hi Guys,
So one of the other leagues I raced with had a very helpful
discussion on racing and sim racing etiquette when it comes to
defending your position and it turns out a lot of people had
different ideas on this. As there are some new drivers here I
thought it would be interesting to post a few article links
here. In sim racing this is particularly important, as we don't
have much the peripheral vision. So if you believe another car
is pulling up along side you, hold your line, do not cut across
them or make a late move.
Blocking vs Defending
Defending is putting your car in an area that makes the opponent
have to take the longer/slower line. You can move offline to
cover the inside, and if your opponent is clear, move back to
the racing line.
Blocking is moving in such a way where your opponent has to slow
down or otherwise react to not cause a collision. Late moves as
someone is about to pull along side you or in the braking zone
is blocking.
The idea is to make sure all action on track is clean and
incident free, so sudden movements or quick lane changes, while
other cars are around you, increases the chance of an incident.
HTML https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/
HTML https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAdn4g6Ga8A&app=desktop
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAdn4g6Ga8A&app=desktop
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnnR6ubhrHg
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnnR6ubhrHg
#Post#: 3069--------------------------------------------------
Re: Defending Your Position
By: Chad Brown Date: May 28, 2017, 7:08 pm
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Thanks for the post Tech.
#Post#: 3077--------------------------------------------------
Re: Defending Your Position
By: Tig_green Date: May 29, 2017, 2:15 am
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Good videos, thanks.
I don't totally agree with some of the situations in the first
video where there wasn't double line change. For example
situation seen in 5:45 was pretty ok to me. He started braking
after he changed his line so the car behind could have change
his line to inside or backed off more imo but was too stubborn
to do it. Sure you need to be careful in those situations as a
car in front. But defending should be something else too than
the obvious choose inside/outside in the middle of a straight,
IMO.
Video number 2 highlights the right to defend but not
dangerously of course.
Both the car in front and the following car has resposibility to
ensure clean racing. Ramming someone from behind when you know
he is going to defend (use his one move while your aren't beside
him) isn't cool either.
-Matt
#Post#: 3080--------------------------------------------------
Re: Defending Your Position
By: Tech G Date: May 29, 2017, 10:09 am
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[quote author=Tig_green link=topic=225.msg3077#msg3077
date=1496042119]
I don't totally agree with some of the situations in the first
video where there wasn't double line change. For example
situation seen in 5:45 was pretty ok to me. He started braking
after he changed his line so the car behind could have change
his line to inside or backed off more imo but was too stubborn
to do it. Sure you need to be careful in those situations as a
car in front. But defending should be something else too than
the obvious choose inside/outside in the middle of a straight,
IMO.
-Matt
[/quote]
Thanks for the comments guys and I am glad these videos are
useful.
It is worth having the discussion, so we can try to agree what
the right approach is. In the particular situation you
mentioned Matt, I agree that this one is a little grey area, but
if you notice the Mclaren starts to drift back on to the racing
line but leaves a little gap on the outside, then as they brake
and the guy behind goes into that gap, the Mclaren drifts
slightly further forcing him more off. This is what I don't
think is ok. The Mclaren should have made his intention clear
and gone all the way outside in the first place not keep
drifting, but the guy behind should also have thought that gap
is to small and backed off
Pretty much everyone agrees you can make one defensive move, or
get in a defensive position, then only move back to the racing
line if it is safe to do so, without causing the guy behind to
have to take any avoiding action. As one of the drivers said
don't be a moving chicane, drifting around and making defensive
moves to late, does not prompt safe, fast and close racing.
#Post#: 3085--------------------------------------------------
Re: Defending Your Position
By: Tig_green Date: May 30, 2017, 4:11 am
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[quote author=Tech G link=topic=225.msg3080#msg3080
date=1496070551]
[quote author=Tig_green link=topic=225.msg3077#msg3077
date=1496042119]
I don't totally agree with some of the situations in the first
video where there wasn't double line change. For example
situation seen in 5:45 was pretty ok to me. He started braking
after he changed his line so the car behind could have change
his line to inside or backed off more imo but was too stubborn
to do it. Sure you need to be careful in those situations as a
car in front. But defending should be something else too than
the obvious choose inside/outside in the middle of a straight,
IMO.
-Matt
[/quote]
Thanks for the comments guys and I am glad these videos are
useful.
It is worth having the discussion, so we can try to agree what
the right approach is. In the particular situation you
mentioned Matt, I agree that this one is a little grey area, but
if you notice the Mclaren starts to drift back on to the racing
line but leaves a little gap on the outside, then as they brake
and the guy behind goes into that gap, the Mclaren drifts
slightly further forcing him more off. This is what I don't
think is ok. The Mclaren should have made his intention clear
and gone all the way outside in the first place not keep
drifting, but the guy behind should also have thought that gap
is to small and backed off
Pretty much everyone agrees you can make one defensive move, or
get in a defensive position, then only move back to the racing
line if it is safe to do so, without causing the guy behind to
have to take any avoiding action. As one of the drivers said
don't be a moving chicane, drifting around and making defensive
moves to late, does not prompt safe, fast and close racing.
[/quote]
I agree that the leading car could have moved more to the right.
There is another thing here that happened that is against the
ethics of clean racing imo: the following car knew he carries
more speed because of the draft so he should have braked earlier
once the car in front started his defensive move by moving to
the right. This also applies is you share the same line with a
car which you know has a earlier braking point than you or you
don't know his braking point. Any of that rear bumping is nasty.
#Post#: 3957--------------------------------------------------
Re: Defending Your Position
By: Tech G Date: August 10, 2017, 10:22 am
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Just bumping this post for the start of the new season, I for
one can't wait ;D
#Post#: 3958--------------------------------------------------
Re: Defending Your Position
By: Guiga Date: August 10, 2017, 11:34 am
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Moving back over to the line despite being the lead car, and
braking almost immediately is not cool. The chasing car has its
line and braking points worked out, they could even be planning
to brake later and do an undercut. The chasing car is forced to
brake reacting to the car or change its line.
The onus to keep things clean is still a little on the chasing
car in this situation. You can flick it to the inside as the car
ahead moves over, and beat them on braking. But speaking from
experience, the wandering to-be-passed person will turn normally
into the corner as if they're alone because they'll also have
little time to react and check their surroundings, and will hit
the passing car.
What I like to do if being chases is keep to the middle of the
track. Never commit much one way or another. I work out the
possible lines and actions the chasing car may take and my
middle-ish positioning reflects that and the next set of
corners. Then I simply don't move at all, and brake in a
straight line, not doing it early nor overshooting the corner.
Of course you're still susceptible to the other person lacking
race craft and collecting you for a variety of reasons, but
they'll be at fault.
Where Tom, H2H, and I often raced, we would get a revolving
collection of guys (admins, regulars, one-offers) just missing
awareness and racecraft, and being a massive nuisance to the
couple of serious guys. Nice videos to share, by the way!
ps: The above statements don't always apply to go-karting. :-P
#Post#: 3967--------------------------------------------------
Re: Defending Your Position
By: Ibby Date: August 11, 2017, 12:41 am
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As a relative newbie I'm starting to learn a bit more about this
sim racing thing. I have an opinion to share on defending and
racing in general.
At the beginning, I always wanted to drive the "perfect" line
and thought that would keep me going the fastest and give me the
best chance of best position in the race. But after I
unintentionally cut someone off in a corner, I realize that's
not the best way to "play". You see, afterward, I felt like shit
that I had just bumped someone off the track. And it could just
have easily gone the other way, and I could have been shunted
into the dirt. Either of those situations results in the same
outcome... no more racing with that guy! I'm starting to learn
that the alternative of seeing someone behind you trying to
pass, and leaving room on the inside of the turn in case they
try a pass, leads to a lot more enjoyment! Sure, you are no
longer on the best line and will end up slowing and giving your
opponent an even better chance to pass you. But it will be a
clean pass that will be exhilarating for both of you! And if
everyone plays this way, there will be lots of safe overtaking
back and forth and a really exciting, fun race!
Chad really likes people to "blog" about their race afterward in
the forums. From reading everyone's posts I observe that any
time there is an incident people feel terrible about it. I also
observe that once someone's closest competitor has come off
track, the other guy's blog goes something like "it was a great
race until my opponent got bumped off. Then it was a LONELY
BORING drive to the finish line." The idea is to have fun. And
for most people that means as much close wheel to wheel action
as you can get. The safer we are and the more room we leave for
each other, the more close action we all get!
Okay, opinion over. I'll go back to being a backmarker and
mowing the grass now. :-)
Paul (Ibby) Ibbotson
#Post#: 3968--------------------------------------------------
Re: Defending Your Position
By: Chad Brown Date: August 11, 2017, 1:16 am
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Paul, a very astute observation. A lonely race is a boring race.
You are, at that point, racing against the track and your own
time. The best races I have had have not resulted in me taking a
podium or win. They have been the races that give me the most
wheel to wheel action against a similarly skilled opponent. For
me the best racing is the racing I get when I am close to
someone an there is drama and skill necessary to keep in
proximity to someone else while going fast as possible. I
believe most of the membership here believes this as well. I
hope we can get more close racing at the front of the field so
guys like Mike F and Scott can have that type of race more
often.
#Post#: 3996--------------------------------------------------
Re: Defending Your Position
By: Tech G Date: August 11, 2017, 2:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ibby link=topic=225.msg3967#msg3967
date=1502430105]
I'm starting to learn that the alternative of seeing someone
behind you trying to pass, and leaving room on the inside of the
turn in case they try a pass, leads to a lot more enjoyment!
Paul (Ibby) Ibbotson
[/quote]
I totally agreed Paul, sim racing is not like regular racing due
to glitches that can happen when there is contact or lag. It's
always best for the guy in front to make their intention clear
and the guy behind to do the same, so both can enjoy the close
racing. If in doubt always leave room. I also learned that
early in a race if the guy behind is obviously faster than you,
it is often better to let them pass and then follow them which
magically make you faster, so less chance of the rest of the
field catching, as defending only slows you both down ;D.
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