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#Post#: 488--------------------------------------------------
Matching the Gun to the game.
By: USARMORER Date: November 27, 2012, 8:23 pm
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Great article by Chuck Hawks:
HTML http://www.chuckhawks.com/gun_game.htm
#Post#: 490--------------------------------------------------
Re: Matching the Gun to the game.
By: Yote59 Date: November 27, 2012, 8:37 pm
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Great article with some great info. I think more of my .17HMR
now that I read this article. I do think the .22-250 with a 70
gr. bullet will down a deer with ease....well....lets just say I
know it will. A friend down a small buck this past season @ 585
yards with his .22-250. I ranged it myself or would not have
believed it.
#Post#: 504--------------------------------------------------
Re: Matching the Gun to the game.
By: GrandLordKhorne Date: November 28, 2012, 7:26 am
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Ya, a 22-250 will take a deer cleanly with a proper shot
placement, but so will a .223 or a .22LR subsonic, but as a
gunsmith and a hunter with over 20 years experience in the field
I would not recommend any of them. I will explain in a min.
The .17 is under rated, but only because people don't think
about it.
I’m not really impressed with the article but let me explain.
He talks a lot about energy and sectional density but neither
have anything to do with killing cleanly. Far starts, every
action has an equal and opposite reaction, which is to say
bullet impact is equal to or less than the recoil, so if you can
survive the recoil the impact of the hit its self won’t kill
you, it’s simple Newtonian physics. It has been a huge myth for
years that Energy has a lot to do with killing an animal. In
reality what kills the animal is tissue destruction, stopping or
preventing vital organs from functioning. Thus effectively the
only factors that can realistically be relied on to contribute
to animal death are permanent wound canal and penetration depth.
The first thing that must occur to create a clean kill is that
the bullet must impact the target animal in a vital area. That
is to say the shot must be properly placed. Next the bullet
must penetrate to a depth that it reaches the vital organs of
said animal and creates damage in said area. Third and probably
most important, the bullet must damage said organs enough to
cause a cease of function.
So lets talk about the factors, First of all shot placement,
that is all about the hunter and equipment being appropriate. I
will not delve into that conversation. Instead I concentrate on
the other 2 factors as they are more relevant to a discussion of
cartridge selection.
So next you have penetration. Penetration is driven mostly by
bullet design and velocity. If you take an equal caliber with 2
different bullet designs, even if they are of equal mass you can
get two different penetrations. A fantastic example of this is
a Varmint Grenade vs. a TSX bullet. A varmint grenade bullet is
designed to fragment quickly creating a shallow but violent
wound. This is highly effective on smaller animals with little
distance from skin to vital organs. By comparison a TSX
penetrates much farther and the wound canal starts much deeper
in the animal extending much further. Essentially if you shot a
squirrel with little thickness with a TSX because of the
penetration you may as well have shot it with a FMJ because it
will not expand fast enough. At the same time if you shot a
bear with a varmint grenade it will fragment just under the
surface damaging the muscle tissue but not the organs beneath.
So bullet design is critical. Velocity being critical because a
bullet must be within an effective velocity window to penetrate
and work properly. An example of this is if I threw the worlds
best designed 180gr medium game bullet at you by hand and it
struck you in the chest it would be meaningless. Primarily
because the bullet did not have enough velocity to penetrate let
alone expand and make a wound canal. At the same time, if I
took the same bullet and fired it at you with a velocity north
of 6000fps it would probably pass right threw you either
fragmenting and causing little damage or not even expanding.
The example I like to give of too much velocity is light TSX
bullets at close range with high velocity magnums. They expand
rapidly the petals shear off and the bulk of the round passes
threw the target much like a FMJ would with a significantly
diminished wound canal.
The third factor being permanent wound canal. A lot of people
like to talk about how big the temporary wound canal is, but it
is meaningless when it comes to killing unless it is directly
affecting the brain or spine. The temp wound canal is
meaningless simply because it represents the expansion of tissue
within it’s elastic range and then the tissue returns to it’s
initial state without tearing, so essentially undamaged. The
permanent wound canal is a segment that is torn or otherwise
permanently damaged by the passage of the bullet. If the heart
is passed by in the temp wound canal area the heart will return
to normal function, if it is part of the permanent wound canal
and the heart is damaged it can no longer pump blood
efficiently, resulting in death. Pretty simple when you get
right down to it. So what drives wound canal size? Well
primarily bullet design and diameter (so long as you penetrate
and are within the functional velocity range). The larger the
diameter of the bullet within the same design the larger the
wound canal, end of story, no discussion needed. Without
getting into a lengthy technical discussion Bullets designed for
medium game work with general medium game parameters and bullets
designed for dangerous game work with others and varmint bullets
work a little differently than even those, so buy a bullet that
suits the type of game. This is to say, buy V-maxes or varmint
grenades for varmints/predators, buy TSX, game kings, ballistic
silvertips or the like for medium game and things like the
sledgehammer for stuff like rhinos.
Ok so now that we have talked about how the bullet kills lets
talk about how to select a cartridge. The parameters for
hunting are primarily what are you hunting and at what distance.
So the short answer is pick a cartridge with a bullet that will
be traveling within the functional velocity range (general rule
of thumb 1600-3000fps) at the point of impact and produces a
large enough wound canal to take the chosen game efficiently.
But there is a problem with the short answer, which is that not
all things always work perfectly. For example, you head out
west with a big magnum in your hands expecting long shots, than
you see the animal of you’re dreams at 37.6 meters so now if you
shoot it the bullet is traveling above it’s effective range and
the wound canal suffers because of it (I would pull out my
sidearm and take it that way). Or less in your control, unknown
to you there is a slight manufacturing error in your bullet and
it fails to expand to spite being in the appropriate velocity
range (I have seen it happen, a couple of times). So this means
there needs to be some sort of safety factor, to say that if the
bullet fails in some way it will still most likely do the job.
It is exactly for that reason that I don’t suggest .22X”
diameter anything on deer size game. What ever you pick for the
job, should have appropriate velocity at the range you expect,
appropriate bullet design with appropriate penetration but also
needs a base diameter that if it dose not expand dose the job.
Doing the job means being efficient, that means both and entry
and exit wound (2 holes of the same size bleed at least twice as
fast as 1, also, exits generally bleed a lot faster than
entrees, blood loss kills) On the other end, too big means too
much recoil and reduced control which means less shot placement.
Also, too big means most costly ammo and is wasteful/stupid if
not necessary. If you are mister mega money bags with ultimate
recoil control there is nothing wrong with buying appropriate
rounds for your .375H&H mag (in this case that would be lighter
bullets of medium game designs) and hunting deer with it, I
don’t suggest it but go for it. If you think you are the mega
sniper who never misses and you want to hunt deer with your
.223, than go out and by medium game bullets and do it, I don’t
suggest it because no one is perfect, S@#*$ happens, but go for
it. If you are a reasonable person who believes in safety
factors and wants a pleasant hunting experience, I will general
suggest something between a 6.5mm and a .338” for deer like game
in a cartridge with a velocity appropriate for the distance you
hunt at. If you think your cartridge is marginal for what you
want to do, it probably is.
I will close by saying appropriate min wound size per game
animal size and wound canal sizes by bullets/velocities are avl
on line if you look. Caution: check who is providing the info,
this is the internet and there are some blithering morons out
there. There are people who ruff guestimated the hole in there
deer based on the length of there thumb and present it as fact
for bullet performance. If you want the info, I can point you
in the right direction.
Sorry about the length, it’s a subject I’m passionate about.
#Post#: 506--------------------------------------------------
Re: Matching the Gun to the game.
By: Prairie blaster Date: November 28, 2012, 7:32 am
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::)
Humm! I just use the 45/70 for anything bigger then a coyote
and even that I'll implode a dog with it after fur season.
#Post#: 521--------------------------------------------------
Re: Matching the Gun to the game.
By: MasterBlaster Date: November 28, 2012, 1:38 pm
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I'm with you PB. My model 70 Winchester 300wsm has taken
everything from elk on down. I call it AT&T because, long
distance is the next best thing to being there. ;D I would like
to video you whacking a squirrel with that 45/70. :o
#Post#: 524--------------------------------------------------
Re: Matching the Gun to the game.
By: Prairie blaster Date: November 28, 2012, 3:45 pm
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[quote]I would like to video you whacking a squirrel with that
45/70[/quote]
Not as impressive as it sounds... A blistering fast 60 gr
22/250 make for better viewing. It will fling them up and spin
them around. My 45/70 even maxed out with a 300 gr going 2500
fps will just kind of mash them in to the ground.
#Post#: 531--------------------------------------------------
Re: Matching the Gun to the game.
By: ShootingStixs Date: November 28, 2012, 6:52 pm
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[quote author=USARMORER link=topic=80.msg488#msg488
date=1354069399]
Great article by Chuck Hawks:
HTML http://www.chuckhawks.com/gun_game.htm
HTML http://www.chuckhawks.com/gun_game.htm
[/quote]
I really enjoyed this article. Thanks for posting.
#Post#: 549--------------------------------------------------
Re: Matching the Gun to the game.
By: 22-250 Date: November 29, 2012, 3:34 am
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[quote author=MasterBlaster link=topic=80.msg521#msg521
date=1354131526]
I'm with you PB. My model 70 Winchester 300wsm has taken
everything from elk on down. I call it AT&T because, long
distance is the next best thing to being there. ;D I would like
to video you whacking a squirrel with that 45/70. :o
[/quote]
AT&T....I like it. 8)
#Post#: 559--------------------------------------------------
Re: Matching the Gun to the game.
By: USARMORER Date: November 29, 2012, 2:39 pm
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I agree with Chuck Hawks, Me personally, I have see attempted
head shots on deer with 17 HM's and 22lr's. Results in some
cases, deer leave with broken jaws. left to starve to death. No
quick kill is guaranteed, but don't lessen the odds by using a
ground hog round to engage large animals. This is not the
1800's where you had to use what you had. Sometimes, we have to
be seasoned professional hunters and responsible adults rather
than kids shooting at "Junior" the neighbors great dane with
air soft guns.
Years ago, I killed a 9 point white tail~Using a 270 Win.~
Dropped in his tracks. At his left shoulder, I seen a small hole
in the hide outside of the shoulder bone. I pulled a 223 round
out of that bone. A perfect example of wrong round for the wrong
game and I am sure the animals suffered from it. Don't need to
hear about the shooter or shot placement> the 223 should not
have been used.
PS> Leave the sniper rifles to the professionals for use. And by
the way, zombies to not exist.
#Post#: 576--------------------------------------------------
Re: Matching the Gun to the game.
By: USARMORER Date: November 29, 2012, 4:47 pm
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They master, do you reload the short mag? i had the 270 WSM, I
do not reload, ammo costs for premium ammo broke the bank. I
traded it and switched back to the 7 mag.
[quote author=MasterBlaster link=topic=80.msg521#msg521
date=1354131526]
I'm with you PB. My model 70 Winchester 300wsm has taken
everything from elk on down. I call it AT&T because, long
distance is the next best thing to being there. ;D I would like
to video you whacking a squirrel with that 45/70. :o
[/quote]
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