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#Post#: 2580--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you think you'd like Judas if you met him?
By: Helen Date: October 30, 2025, 9:15 am
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[quote author=Rita link=topic=84.msg2578#msg2578
date=1761809705]
I always thought he returned the money out of guilt, but we know
that the disciples thought Jesus would overthrow the Romans.
They honestly believed that the kingdom he spoke of was a
worldly one. It’s a shame he acted straight away as we know
Peter also felt ashamed but Jesus later came alongside him , so
pretty sure the same would have happen with Judas.
I see with Peter and Judas a picture of how things can pan out,
one waited but found the other disciples and was reconciled with
Jesus while the other faced it alone and gave into the guilt. (
I have started to notice that this often happens in scripture -
where two ‘ brothers ‘ or ‘ kings ‘or situations occur and they
have similar experiences but the outcomes are different
depending on what choices they make )
[/quote]
Amen..agree , good thoughts here :)
#Post#: 2581--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you think you'd like Judas if you met him?
By: Dave Date: October 30, 2025, 12:23 pm
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Like us all Judas answered his call with his problems, joining
the 'church' of his day gave him the chance to address his
problem and Jesus giving him the bag was his opportunity.
In Ex 21 -35 In verse 32 we read the penalty for an ox pushing a
slave, the master receives 30 pieces of silver as was the price
of a slave.
Does the make Judas A slave when he asks for the 30 pieces which
ends up buying a potters field. He never asked the real potter
to remake his vessel.
30 is presented in Hebrew numbering as 3 x 10,
3 is represented as the letter Gimel, alluding to divine
perfection or completeness.
10 is represented as the letter Yod , symbolising a divine
ordained period of time of spiritual transition or fulfillment.
30 in the hebrew is a highly favoured number.
The Aaronic priests started at 30.
Abraham bargains with the God for Sodom with a bid of 30
righteous if they can be found.
King David begins his reign at 30 and there are many more 30's.
Zec 11 vs's 12 and 13 are the Judas fulfillment, so 30 is also
divine fulfillment.
The great question being were Judas's books cooked from the
beginning???
#Post#: 2582--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you think you'd like Judas if you met him?
By: KerryD Date: October 30, 2025, 2:56 pm
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[quote author=Helen link=topic=84.msg2579#msg2579
date=1761833648]
Hi there .
No I don’t believe ‘it had to be him’, but someone had to do it.
And obviously he had a weakness. [/quote]
Why did anyone need to betray Jesus? Didn't the Jews know who
he was? As Jesus pointed out, they had had the opportunity to
arrest him before but passed on on it.
[quote]You said - “ David was there to replace Saul , if needed
“
Can’t agree with you there Kerry .
Samuel was sad that Israel kept demanding a king ‘like other
nations had ‘. He knew that GOD Himself was the Ruler of Israel
..it wasn’t time, but they demanded one, so God gave them Saul.
Saul only marked the time until God was ready to anoint David
in His stead. Which I believe He intended to do all the time.
Just my opinion…..
[/quote]So do you believe King Saul was predestined to sin the
way he did? His sin was also connected with worldly goods.
Samuel said of it:
! Samuel 15:26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with
thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord
hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.
27 And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the
skirt of his mantle, and it rent.
28 And Samuel said unto him, The Lord hath rent the kingdom of
Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of
thine, that is better than thou.
29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for
he is not a man, that he should repent.
The lesson I draw from it is that Saul could repent and be
forgiven; but that didn't mean he was free to repeat his
mistake. I could see Judas being forgiven, but he would have
been arrogant to want to retain his position as one of the
twelve.
I believe if we sin and repent, often the best way to avoid
repeating it is by having temptation and opportunity removed
from us. Saul had shown his weakness, so it was God's Mercy not
to want him in a position where he would not be tempted like
that again.
#Post#: 2583--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you think you'd like Judas if you met him?
By: KerryD Date: October 30, 2025, 3:01 pm
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[quote author=Rita link=topic=84.msg2578#msg2578
date=1761809705]
I always thought he returned the money out of guilt, but we know
that the disciples thought Jesus would overthrow the Romans.
They honestly believed that the kingdom he spoke of was a
worldly one. It’s a shame he acted straight away as we know
Peter also felt ashamed but Jesus later came alongside him , so
pretty sure the same would have happen with Judas. [/quote]
Would he have felt guilty if Jesus had resisted arrest and had
his disciples fight, sparking a rebellion? Or would he have
been pleased at how he had fooled the Jews>
[quote]I see with Peter and Judas a picture of how things can
pan out, one waited but found the other disciples and was
reconciled with Jesus while the other faced it alone and gave
into the guilt. ( I have started to notice that this often
happens in scripture - where two ‘ brothers ‘ or ‘ kings ‘or
situations occur and they have similar experiences but the
outcomes are different depending on what choices they make )
[/quote]They were quite similar, aren't they? I see Peter as
being willing to do what Jesus told him while Judas had his own
ideas and resorted to trying to manipulate Jesus into setting up
an earthly kingdom.
#Post#: 2584--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you think you'd like Judas if you met him?
By: KerryD Date: October 30, 2025, 3:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I have another problem swirling about in my mind. John's Gospel
doesn't mention a kiss from Judas. John says Judas led the band
of men sent to arrest Jesus to the Garden but that Jesus
identified himself. It doesn't matter that much to me if Judas
betrayed Jesus with a kiss; but I am curious. I tend to believe
John's account and figure the other three Gospels had things
added; but I don't know.
John 18:3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers
from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with
lanterns and torches and weapons.
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him,
went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I
am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went
backward, and fell to the ground.
7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus
of Nazareth.
8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye
seek me, let these go their way:
9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them
which thou gavest me have I lost none.
#Post#: 2585--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you think you'd like Judas if you met him?
By: KerryD Date: October 31, 2025, 2:24 pm
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Another thing popped up about Judas. What does "son of
perdition" mean? Were Jesus and Paul using it the same way?
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in
thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of
them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might
be fulfilled.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for
that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
#Post#: 2586--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you think you'd like Judas if you met him?
By: Mike Waters Date: October 31, 2025, 4:52 pm
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What ever would we do without Kerry's vast range of inter
related insights.
Quite breath taking and so gratefully received IMO.
#Post#: 2587--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you think you'd like Judas if you met him?
By: Rita Date: November 1, 2025, 6:20 am
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Must admit Kerry that I don’t understand why you presume that
someone else has added something just because the other gospels
don’t convey exactly the same wording.If you look at all four
accounts and put them together you get four perspectives and get
a bigger picture on what happened. None of the other gospels
mention how the soldiers reacted, yet you presume that it must
be the other gospels that have been added to…….
Each gospel gives us a side of Jesus , and so they are all
written to convey that, Matthew displays Jesus as a King , Mark
as a servant, Luke as a humanitarian, John as God. As a whole
you get the full picture of Jesus.
I always look at each gospel account and use the differences to
give me more information. John doesn’t state the kiss but it
doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. It was the customary way for a
person to great a teacher. Jesus wasn’t alone and it was dark,
Judas greeted him with a kiss so that the soldiers would see who
to approach. Then, it stands to reason with me, that Jesus then
spoke to the soldiers.
#Post#: 2588--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you think you'd like Judas if you met him?
By: Rita Date: November 1, 2025, 6:27 am
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Hi Kerry,
In my ASV Bible it’s uses the phrase ‘ son of destruction ‘ in
both John 17:12 and 2 Thessalonians. In the later verses it is
clearly talking about the anti Christ, and we know that Judas
was not him. However maybe the same phrase is used because they
were both serving the enemy in what they will do and what they
did.
Must admit that I don’t know enough to add anymore - so that
response is very basic x
#Post#: 2589--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you think you'd like Judas if you met him?
By: KerryD Date: November 1, 2025, 7:40 am
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[quote author=Rita link=topic=84.msg2587#msg2587
date=1761996045]
Must admit Kerry that I don’t understand why you presume that
someone else has added something just because the other gospels
don’t convey exactly the same wording.If you look at all four
accounts and put them together you get four perspectives and get
a bigger picture on what happened. None of the other gospels
mention how the soldiers reacted, yet you presume that it must
be the other gospels that have been added to…….
Each gospel gives us a side of Jesus , and so they are all
written to convey that, Matthew displays Jesus as a King , Mark
as a servant, Luke as a humanitarian, John as God. As a whole
you get the full picture of Jesus.
I always look at each gospel account and use the differences to
give me more information. John doesn’t state the kiss but it
doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. It was the customary way for a
person to great a teacher. Jesus wasn’t alone and it was dark,
Judas greeted him with a kiss so that the soldiers would see who
to approach. Then, it stands to reason with me, that Jesus then
spoke to the soldiers.
[/quote]
Checking it again:
Matthew 26:47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the
twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and
staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.
48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever
I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and
kissed him.
Mark 14:43 And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas,
one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords
and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the
elders.
44 And he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying,
Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he; take him, and lead him
away safely.
45 And as soon as he was come, he goeth straightway to him, and
saith, Master, master; and kissed him.
Luke 22:46 And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest
ye enter into temptation.
47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was
called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near
unto Jesus to kiss him.
48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man
with a kiss?
John doesn't mention them sleeping. Indeed he gives us a long
prayer (chapter 17) made by Jesus just before Judas showed up.
That's when he called Judas "son of perdition." Then onto the
next chapter where we also learn darkness was not a big problem
since they had lanterns and torches:
John 18:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with
his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into
the which he entered, and his disciples.
2 And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus
ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from
the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns
and torches and weapons.
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him,
went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I
am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went
backward, and fell to the ground.
7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus
of Nazareth.
8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye
seek me, let these go their way:
Jesus identified himself by telling the band of men he was the
one they were looking for. Judas led them to the place but
didn't identify Jesus with a kiss. That could have been his
plan; but John's account says Jesus "went forth" to meet them,
asked them whom they were seeking and then identifying himself.
I rely on John since he was an eyewitness. Matthew, Mark and
Luke were not.
The accounts don't square. Logically they can't all be
"literally" true. It's like the discrepancy in how Judas died.
John doesn't mention it; but Acts conflicts with Matthew. They
both have a "field" in their accounts; but one has Judas buying
it while the other has Jews buying it. One has him hanging
himself while the other has him plunging to his death in the
field. I tend to see Matthew as having the most additions. You
tell me where this is in the book of Jeremiah:
Matthew 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the
potter's field, to bury strangers in.
8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this
day.
9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the
prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the
price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of
Israel did value;
The reference is actually to:
Zechariah 11:11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor
of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of
the Lord.
12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and
if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of
silver.
13 And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly
price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces
of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.
The reference also doesn't seem to fit too well if you read the
entire chapter in Zechariah. I consider that passage in Matthew
an addition by some Gentile scribe who was only vaguely familiar
with the Hebrew Scriptures.
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