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#Post#: 2505--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cleaving
By: Rita Date: October 20, 2025, 5:28 am
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[quote author=Dave link=topic=82.msg2502#msg2502
date=1760902134]
This is an interesting subject as it's recorded in Gen 2, it
seems it's Adam who quotes verse 24, odd scenario as neither had
a 'father or mother' cleave = to cling to, a strong affection
for; is he to cling to his wife until love blossoms. There was
no Tim LaHaye manuals for them.
And God blessed them, and God said unto 'THEM'; Be Fruitful, and
Multiply, and Replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have
dominion over---------. but no admonition to love each other and
they were not ashamed.
The question being did 'they fulfill' what God blessed them for
or look we for another?
As to the tree blame, was it just a ploy for the 'seed;' so was
it a no blame action to further, the plan and purpose of the
Lord? TBC.
[/quote]
I don’t think Adam did quote that verse Dave. The quote from
Adam is verse 23. It’s the writer of Genesis that has added
verse 24, from the prospective of time and aligning to this
verse and comparing it marriage and two becoming one. It says ‘
Therefore……… ‘ ( like saying , as a result this is why )
I have never looked at that command and recognised that it would
naturally be a command that Jesus would adhere to as the ‘
second Adam ‘ - we know as early as genesis chapter 6 that they
failed as The flood came as a result of what was going on ………….
‘ subdue ‘ can mean different things, but one meaning is to use
resources for the benefit of others ( use it in a controlled way
)
I found it interesting that in the NIV and ESV it uses the word
‘ fill ‘ but the KJ say ‘ Replenish - which can also mean fill,
but it kind of makes it interesting that this is exactly what
Jesus has to do, he has to start over and redo things, change
things to the way they are meant to be ………….
I find this fascinating to consider , thank you for adding that
verse and comments as it definitely gave me food for thought
this morning xx
#Post#: 2506--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cleaving
By: Rita Date: October 20, 2025, 5:59 am
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Hi Kerry
Was Adam with Eve - well in ESV, NIV and KJ it all states that
Adam was with her when she took the fruit ( 3:6 )
The trees- were they the same?
2:9 states that the tree of life was in the centre of the garden
and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Also later on in 3:22 it states ‘ now lest he reach out his hand
and take Also of the tree of life and eat and live forever ‘
therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden.
This gives the impression of two separate trees and that no
fruit had been taken from one giving eternal life.
One running theme throughout scripture is about Man’s will and
wisdom verse God will and wisdom - having those conflicts for
eternity was not an option , hence why we were banished.
Jesus conforms us to the will of God - changing us from within
to choose Gods wisdom and will rather than what we consider to
be right in our own eyes. So in His Kingdom it’s the right way.
Cleaving, living together
Yes, I perhaps should have worded it differently. A son living
with his parents would consider His parents needs, and that
would have still remained relevant, but His wife’s needs would
be top of the list. Living together meant living close , a bit
like living in a house together but having separate rooms ( in
this case separate tents ) There still would have been
responsibilities within that community or group.
Adam and Eve
I still do not see that Eve had any other needs as after they
were both created God saw that it was good, very good , yet
before that God recognised that Adam had a need for
companionship , so Eve was created to fulfil that need.
The motive behind why he took the fruit doesn’t really seem
relevant to me, neither of them would have understood what death
was or exactly what the consequences were and Adam was given
responsibility over Eve which he way we’ll have not completely
understood. However God had given them clear instructions which
both of them failed to follow.
I have heard many different interpretations about Adam not
being as guilty and Eve being blames more ( that was even the
reason I was blamed for my husband going astray by a JW uncle ,
because I was an ‘ Eve ‘ It must have been my fault as a women )
I don’t buy it, as far as I am concerned they both failed
#Post#: 2507--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cleaving
By: KerryD Date: October 20, 2025, 12:50 pm
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[quote author=Rita link=topic=82.msg2506#msg2506
date=1760957956]
Hi Kerry
Was Adam with Eve - well in ESV, NIV and KJ it all states that
Adam was with her when she took the fruit ( 3:6 )
[/quote]I need time to absorb this. I've seen pictures of both
of them and the serpent but thought the artists were mistaken.
The word translated as "with" almost always means that in
English. I think it fair to think the translators got it right
and I had it wrong. Thanks for that correction, Rita.
#Post#: 2508--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cleaving
By: Rita Date: October 20, 2025, 1:49 pm
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[quote author=KerryD link=topic=82.msg2507#msg2507
date=1760982621]
I need time to absorb this. I've seen pictures of both of them
and the serpent but thought the artists were mistaken.
The word translated as "with" almost always means that in
English. I think it fair to think the translators got it right
and I had it wrong. Thanks for that correction, Rita.
[/quote]
I don’t know if Adam was with her when the serpent tempted her,
that is not clear and as I said yesterday in your response, I
think she took the fruit at a later time - and that was when
Adam was with her.
It’s a bit like paintings and pictures of the nativity, they put
everyone with Mary when Jesus was born, I believe the wise men
arrived much later.
However it still depicts who was involved in the story. It could
be the same with the artwork depicting the fall.
#Post#: 2509--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cleaving
By: KerryD Date: October 20, 2025, 2:22 pm
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[quote author=Rita link=topic=82.msg2508#msg2508
date=1760986147]
I don’t know if Adam was with her when the serpent tempted her,
that is not clear and as I said yesterday in your response, I
think she took the fruit at a later time - and that was when
Adam was with her.
It’s a bit like paintings and pictures of the nativity, they put
everyone with Mary when Jesus was born, I believe the wise men
arrived much later.
However it still depicts who was involved in the story. It could
be the same with the artwork depicting the fall.
[/quote]You gave me more to think about. I am also pondering
why she saw the fruit was "pleasant" but Adam apparently hadn't
noticed. Did she notice that because the serpent drew her
attention to the tree and its fruit?
#Post#: 2510--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cleaving
By: Rita Date: October 20, 2025, 2:38 pm
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[quote author=KerryD link=topic=82.msg2509#msg2509
date=1760988161]
You gave me more to think about. I am also pondering why she
saw the fruit was "pleasant" but Adam apparently hadn't noticed.
Did she notice that because the serpent drew her attention to
the tree and its fruit?
[/quote]
I definitely think that was the case.
#Post#: 2529--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cleaving
By: Dave Date: October 21, 2025, 7:12 pm
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The Tlot Phinkens in my mind, chp 2 vs 7 is the pattern of the
man that the Lord God formed, very detailed like the birth of
the second Adam, especially I might add compared to the woman
who the Lord God made for him.
vs 8 & 15 relates that it was the "Lord God who planted a
garden" eastward in Eden, he then takes the man and puts him
there, to dress it and keep it, I wonder what that would entail?
now we have the two trees although only one is mentioned and
Adam is only told of the consequence of eating from that tree of
'the' knowledge of------------. interesting to note, that right
up to the forming of Adam it is God said, then it becomes the
Lord God until their eviction from the garden and the real blame
game happens.
If you don't know the and 'thou shalt surely die' bit why would
you fear the serpent!! one thing about the serpent it has a good
sales pitch, 'You shall not surely die: and his promise of ' ye
shall be as gods,-----' a sure winner after being just made in
the image and likeness of God.
Many years ago I read 'Pawns in the game' a conspirecy book on
the world bankers at that time going
back to Simon Whieshart sp and the Rothchilds. Could we put A
and E down as pawns, like our man Judas, the serpent, and the
garden?????
We used to sing a song, not one of Helens fav's
God is a farmer he planted a garden,
The invisible things of Him are quite clearly seen,
If we sow to the flesh we reap corruption,if we sow to the
spirit;
we reap everlasting life.
Every seed brings forth after it's kind, what you sow you reap.
The first Adam had to sow the "seed".
Kerry sorry old mate, I mean't to reply on Enoch, Moses and
Elijah I put then under 'all died'
#Post#: 2531--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cleaving
By: KerryD Date: October 22, 2025, 1:01 am
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[quote author=Dave link=topic=82.msg2529#msg2529
date=1761091954]
Kerry sorry old mate, I mean't to reply on Enoch, Moses and
Elijah I put then under 'all died'
[/quote]Hebrews 11 is another mystery to me.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not
see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:
for before his translation he had this testimony, that he
pleased God.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises,
but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and
embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and
pilgrims on the earth.
#Post#: 2532--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cleaving
By: Dave Date: October 22, 2025, 2:26 pm
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Kerry many eons ago we had the book of Enoch, I wonder if it
alluded to his translation.
Translation= to move from one place to another, Paul died and so
did Enoch. We have an Indigenous band here called the Enoch Band
I wonder who named them?
And he doesn't make it to the Mount of Transfiguration, maybe
lost in translation ;) ;) ;) Well he was before the law and
the prophets.
The most remembered clave must be Ruth and Naomi, Orpah failed
to 'cling to Naomi' Ruth like Eve was part of the plan for the
seed.
#Post#: 2534--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cleaving
By: KerryD Date: October 23, 2025, 12:24 am
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[quote author=Dave link=topic=82.msg2532#msg2532
date=1761161210]
Kerry many eons ago we had the book of Enoch, I wonder if it
alluded to his translation.
Translation= to move from one place to another, Paul died and so
did Enoch. We have an Indigenous band here called the Enoch Band
I wonder who named them?
And he doesn't make it to the Mount of Transfiguration, maybe
lost in translation ;) ;) ;) Well he was before the law and
the prophets.
The most remembered clave must be Ruth and Naomi, Orpah failed
to 'cling to Naomi' Ruth like Eve was part of the plan for the
seed.
[/quote]I have a copy of the Book of Enoch; but there are
various forms of it, so I can't be sure the one I have is
accurate.
So what does translating Enoch so that he should not see death
mean?
I suggest that there are "three pillars." That is shown by
having Moses, Elijah and Jesus. The text does not say so, but I
believe Peter received the position under Jesus there while
James received Moses' and John Elijah's.
Matthew 7:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and
John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain
apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as
the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking
with him.
James and Moses would have been on the left of Jesus and John
and Elijah on the right.
Why call them pillars? Well, they were becoming Heaven's
connections with the earth. I agree with Paul (in part anyway)
for a change and use his language.
Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be
pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave
to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should
go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Galatians has enough problems without fancying the word "seemed"
is an insult. It has to do with how Paul perceived them,
perhaps in a vision!
I wouldn't take the "heathen" and "circumcision" too literally.
Remember Peter had a vision about converting a Gentile! He
started it, more of less. Rather I think James, Peter, and John
visited areas with Jews and probably went to synagogues, working
to convert the Jews first who then could later work to convert
Jews -- while Paul went more to Gentile areas.
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