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#Post#: 2346--------------------------------------------------
Reincarnation
By: Kerry Date: September 28, 2025, 6:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=77.msg2338#msg2338
date=1758995019]
First response by me would be to ask whether reincarnation
happens for everybody or is it by Divine selective intervention?
Second would be "do the reincarnated ever get re-reincarnated"?
Does that help you to "Know where to get started"?
[/quote]Reincarnation happens for most people. There is one
exception I know about and that when the soul goes into such a
deep sleep, it stays with the last body it inhabited. There
are, by the way, two types of sleep. The first is a light sleep
and doesn't last that long. The second is a deep sleep which
can last for centuries. Trauma tends to be cause of the deep
sleep. Before Jesus' accomplishments, persecuted saints could
sleep for centuries. This effectively prevented them from
reincarnating and moving on to perfection.
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice,
yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from
the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks
rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints
which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went
into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
I read the rending of the veil spiritually not physically. I
also do not think physical bodies came out graves.
The souls of those saints heard something -- call it the Voice
of God, the Word of God, a trumpet sound -- and came out.
What about the souls of sinners who were sleeping? Jesus
predicted:
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the
which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection of damnation.
Trapping the souls of sinners in a sleeping state also prevented
them from turning aside from their evil ways in another
lifetime.
The saint who dies unperfected needs to be born in another body
to continue his journey. In the days of Enoch, there was enough
time for someone to do this in one lifetime; but when the life
span was shortened, it was next to impossible. Paul gives us how
it works when a saint in reincarnated. Note that the word
"foreknow" means to have a relationship with. God knows about
sinners, but He doesn't "knew" them the way He "knows" the
saints.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good
to them that love God, to them who are the called according to
his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be
conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the
firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and
whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.
Heaven helps plan things for the saint. Parents are picked,
and circumstances are looked at. This is predestination. Can
the saint benefit from this lifetime, and can he or she do what
God wants? The parents may even be informed of what kind of
child is coming in a vision or dream. The saint in the new body
will likely not know nothing about the relationship with Heaven
until something happens to inform him. He is "called." If you
are one of Jesus' sheep, you hear and come. Remember the story
about the one lost sheep? Jesus will find you if you're one of
his, no matter what it takes.
Past sins or mistakes from childhood tend to be minor for the
elect soul; and things are then made "right" -- justification.
This is in preparation for the final lifetime and glorification
following the achieving of perfection.
The uncorrected soul is not under the protection of Heaven. The
uncorrected soul in many cases will look for any pregnant woman
to find a body. It probably won't be a saintly woman picked as
mother since she is under the protection of Heaven. That can
happen but only if Heaven permits it. (Why Cain was wicked as
firstborn and Able righteous needs discussed as does Esau and
Jacob.) In most cases, I would say the uncorrected soul finds
parents in sad circumstances. Look at areas where Voodoo and
similar religions dominate.
#Post#: 2348--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Kerry Date: September 28, 2025, 8:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Here is something to think about. I think the problem of
psychopathy may be relevant. Psychopaths are extremely evil, of
course. Lucky for society, they are relatively rare. The
Psalmist wrote:
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go
astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
This is not the kind of child Jesus was talking about.
Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be
converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter
into the kingdom of heaven.
Science continues to grapple with whether psychopaths are born
or made. Here is a link to an article on that question.
HTML https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/understanding-the-evolution-of-behavior/202411/are-psychopaths-born-or-made
#Post#: 2349--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Mike Waters Date: September 28, 2025, 9:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=78.msg2346#msg2346
date=1759057992]
Reincarnation happens for most people. There is one exception I
know about and that when the soul goes into such a deep sleep,
it stays with the last body it inhabited. There are, by the
way, two types of sleep. The first is a light sleep and doesn't
last that long. The second is a deep sleep which can last for
centuries. Trauma tends to be cause of the deep sleep. Before
Jesus' accomplishments, persecuted saints could sleep for
centuries. This effectively prevented them from reincarnating
and moving on to perfection.
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice,
yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from
the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks
rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints
which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went
into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
I read the rending of the veil spiritually not physically. I
also do not think physical bodies came out graves.
The souls of those saints heard something -- call it the Voice
of God, the Word of God, a trumpet sound -- and came out.
What about the souls of sinners who were sleeping? Jesus
predicted:
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the
which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection of damnation.
Trapping the souls of sinners in a sleeping state also prevented
them from turning aside from their evil ways in another
lifetime.
The saint who dies unperfected needs to be born in another body
to continue his journey. In the days of Enoch, there was enough
time for someone to do this in one lifetime; but when the life
span was shortened, it was next to impossible. Paul gives us how
it works when a saint in reincarnated. Note that the word
"foreknow" means to have a relationship with. God knows about
sinners, but He doesn't "knew" them the way He "knows" the
saints.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good
to them that love God, to them who are the called according to
his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be
conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the
firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and
whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.
Heaven helps plan things for the saint. Parents are picked,
and circumstances are looked at. This is predestination. Can
the saint benefit from this lifetime, and can he or she do what
God wants? The parents may even be informed of what kind of
child is coming in a vision or dream. The saint in the new body
will likely not know nothing about the relationship with Heaven
until something happens to inform him. He is "called." If you
are one of Jesus' sheep, you hear and come. Remember the story
about the one lost sheep? Jesus will find you if you're one of
his, no matter what it takes.
Past sins or mistakes from childhood tend to be minor for the
elect soul; and things are then made "right" -- justification.
This is in preparation for the final lifetime and glorification
following the achieving of perfection.
The uncorrected soul is not under the protection of Heaven. The
uncorrected soul in many cases will look for any pregnant woman
to find a body. It probably won't be a saintly woman picked as
mother since she is under the protection of Heaven. That can
happen but only if Heaven permits it. (Why Cain was wicked as
firstborn and Able righteous needs discussed as does Esau and
Jacob.) In most cases, I would say the uncorrected soul finds
parents in sad circumstances. Look at areas where Voodoo and
similar religions dominate.
[/quote]
Kerry
I fear that we are verging on the "Thus saith the Word of God"
versus "no it doesn't, it saith thus", game of Divine monopoly.
IMO God is 'not up' for being' thus dissected.
I've said many times that if you play the 'thus saith the word
of God' game, then you will find that most 'theologies' that can
be underpinned by certain scriptures, can equally well be
undermined by others.
For my part I rely on the repitching of the way God now
'speaks', having passed the baton for dong so on to the Holy
Spirit, at the point of Christ's Glorification.
I now rely on stuff being implanted into the fleshy tablet of my
heart, be it from secular sources, or from selected bits of
scripture (many call it 'cherry picking', to which I respond
"and why not if I rely on God's Holy Spirit to do the cherry
picking")
#Post#: 2350--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Kerry Date: September 28, 2025, 10:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=78.msg2349#msg2349
date=1759069671]
Kerry
I fear that we are verging on the "Thus saith the Word of God"
versus "no it doesn't, it saith thus", game of Divine monopoly.
IMO God is 'not up' for being' thus dissected.
I've said many times that if you play the 'thus saith the word
of God' game, then you will find that most 'theologies' that can
be underpinned by certain scriptures, can equally well be
undermined by others.
For my part I rely on the repitching of the way God now
'speaks', having passed the baton for dong so on to the Holy
Spirit, at the point of Christ's Glorification.
I now rely on stuff being implanted into the fleshy tablet of my
heart, beit from secular sources, or from selected bits of
scripture (many call it 'cherry picking', to which I respond
"and why not if I rely on God's Holy Spirit to do the cherry
picking"
[/quote]
I would say that any doctrine which are underpinned by some
Scripture but undermined by others is likely in error somehow.
I hope we can agree that many passages in the Bible can be read
more than one way. Thus it can be dangerous to take one
passage which could be read in more than one way and base a
belief on it. If we read another passage which undermines our
interpretation, we should question our initial interpretation.
The example of Jesus healing on the Sabbath comes to mind. He
was accused of breaking the Sabbath. Was he, or were his
accusers relying on a naive understanding which did not take
into account other Scriptures? God is Love, and any commandment
of His is based on Love. Thus Moses said to choose rightly and
live. If someone is dying on the Sabbath and we do nothing to
save his life, surely we failed to understand what the
commandment about the Sabbath was.
It is written, "Be still and know that I am God." For six days
of the week, we can be busy with earthly things. Thus setting
aside a day to "be still" on has a wonderful purpose. We also
need to reflect that the Sabbath represents our final coming to
rest and ceasing from earthly labors. I argue that by healing
on the Sabbath, Jesus was actually observing it and helping the
healed people observe it by removing troubles which drew their
attention to earthly woes, preventing them from "being still" so
they could begin perceiving the spiritual reality.
When Jesus was tempted to do something evil by Satan, he quoted
a passage we need to keep in mind.
Luke 4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God,
command this stone that it be made bread.
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall
not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Thus cherry-picking is not a recommended course. I would also
say that the safest course in many cases is to heed our
consciences. If we have the Spirit and are guided by it, we do
need not written words. Nor would anyone need the Law of Moses.
Think about our speeding laws. They were given to us to help
save lives since if too many people are speeding, we'd see many
more accidents. Yet ambulances are allowed to speed. Taking
that one rule too literally without seeing the motive behind it
would mean people died since ambulances weren't speeding.
Another question is why people before Moses did not need written
words. I'd say the children of Abraham were mostly elect and
able to hear the Voice of God for themselves. When so many
souls of Egypt were added on, many of them could not, thus Moses
gave them written laws -- along with the commandment that they
were to be written on their hearts.
#Post#: 2351--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Mike Waters Date: September 29, 2025, 4:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Only an 'age of enlightenment' reformation of the Reformation
can get us out of 'thus saith the (Written) Word of God'
controversy.
We might just as well have stayed with the Bible in Latin and
only to be read and interpreted by the Catholic (can't remember
what their 'select group' was called).
Signed 'X'
#Post#: 2352--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Mike Waters Date: September 29, 2025, 4:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=78.msg2351#msg2351
date=1759136466]
Only an 'age of enlightenment' reformation of the Reformation
can get us out of 'thus saith the (Written) Word of God'
controversy.
We might just as well have stayed with the Bible in Latin and
only to be read and interpreted by the Catholic (can't remember
what their 'select group' was called).
Signed 'X'
[/quote]
Did a search
"According to Catholic belief, the task of authentically
interpreting the Word of God has been entrusted exclusively to
the Sacred Magisterium of the Church."
#Post#: 2353--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Kerry Date: September 29, 2025, 4:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=78.msg2351#msg2351
date=1759136466]
Only an 'age of enlightenment' reformation of the Reformation
can get us out of 'thus saith the (Written) Word of God'
controversy.
We might just as well have stayed with the Bible in Latin and
only to be read and interpreted by the Catholic (can't remember
what their 'select group' was called).
Signed 'X'
[/quote]
The need for reformation may go back further than the
"Reformation." The Church soon fell into error and rebellion
much as Israel fell into rebellion not too long after leaving
Egypt. It was predictable. Jesus predicted it, and John
recorded his words.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is
day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
The night did indeed come rather quickly. My estimate if 40
years. If Jesus left the earth in 30 AD and the earthly Temple
fell in 70 AD, we get that number.
What could that possibly mean? Well, if a thousand years is as
a day, it could mean the Seven Days of Genesis correspond to
history too -- and that would mean the Fourth Day ended about 70
AD. Since days in Biblical terms begin with the night, we would
see the world entering the Fifth Day.
God's plan does not expect perfection from us immediately. It
takes time; and as long, progress is being made, His plan is
succeeding. Thus the Apostles did remarkably well before the
night fell. Their followers were not perfect, nor would I think
all their teachings would be perfect. Indeed, we see confusion
entering the Church even as the New Testament was being written.
It is curious indeed that the Fifth Day is about birds and fish
-- creatures of the air and water. Peter was well suited for
the task. He had a background of being a fisherman; and the
deaths of the martyrs were like using bait on a hook to catch
fish. When Jesus said he would make Pater a fisher of men, I
believe he foresaw Peter's end.
When someone sins, most of the time he's not completely innocent
or guilty. The other party usually also has a flaw. God does
not intervene to hook men as long as they have the smallest
excuse. Thus it was necessary for Jesus to be guiltless. Had
he given the Jews the slightest reason to act against him, they
wouldn't have been hooked.
If someone offends against you and you are completely innocent,
you have a wonderful opportunity to put him on the "hook." If
you can bless those who curse you, you have the spiritual
authority over them. They just gave it to you. It's not as
hard as it sounds in some cases. I was walking on the street
one day, and someone I didn't know decided to insult me for some
unknown reason. I didn't put on pious act of blessing him aloud
-- rather I silently asked God to bless him. Of course, that
didn't demand the courage the martyrs had.
I would say that somewhere around 1000 AD to 1500 AD, there was
another night, the night of the Sixth Day. Around 1500, the day
part of Day Six began. This is the era when "man" is being
formed. Man's number is 6, of course. Progress was and is
being made; God's plan is working even if flaws remain. When
man is ready to receive the truth which will bring him to
perfection, it will be revealed. Until then, revealing truth
too soon to those unready to receive it means they will reject
it and stumble. Thus God hides some truth from us so we don't
reject it. Our sins then are sins of ignorance which are far
less serious than knowing the truth and rejecting it.
#Post#: 2354--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Kerry Date: September 29, 2025, 5:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=78.msg2351#msg2351
date=1759136466]
Only an 'age of enlightenment' reformation of the Reformation
can get us out of 'thus saith the (Written) Word of God'
controversy.
We might just as well have stayed with the Bible in Latin and
only to be read and interpreted by the Catholic (can't remember
what their 'select group' was called).
Signed 'X'
[/quote]
I find it interesting that Paul advised Timothy, ordained as a
bishop, to take care of what he said.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a
workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the
word of truth.
If an ordained bishop needs to be careful so that he rightly
divides the word of truth, how much more so the ordinary layman.
Why assume the Spirit is guiding us so we can each sit down and
rightly divide the word? Another passage that seems to confuse
many is what Jesus told his disciples about the Spirit leading
them into all truth. He said that to them, not to us so why
should we assume we are the equals of his disciples?
John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot
bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide
you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but
whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew
you things to come.
Let us not ignore the context. His disciples were unable to
bear some truths when Jesus spoke those words. Why then should
we assume we are able to bear all truth and that the Spirit of
Truth will reveal it to us? I also wonder about people who
rebel against established churches to make their own and claim
they possess this kind of all truth. Have they ever foretold
the future correctly? We see more so-called prophets who make
bad predictions. We should not heed such people.
Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the
Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the
thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath
spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
#Post#: 2355--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Mike Waters Date: September 29, 2025, 8:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Kerry
With that post, our feelings concur much more.
#Post#: 2356--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Kerry Date: October 1, 2025, 11:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=78.msg2355#msg2355
date=1759151407]
Kerry
With that post, our feelings concur much more.
[/quote]
I think so. For some reason, my mind today is in some kind of
fog so I don't feel like focusing.
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