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#Post#: 2331--------------------------------------------------
Judas
By: Kerry Date: September 27, 2025, 12:02 am
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One of Mike's comments sparked this question about Judas.
[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=2.msg2330#msg2330
date=1758897482]
Adding to my thoughts.
"The phrase "before the foundation of the world" appears in
several New Testament scriptures, notably Ephesians 1:4, which
states that God chose believers in Christ before the world was
created to be holy and blameless. This concept also appears in
John 17:24 where Jesus refers to the glory given to Him by the
Father, which existed "before the foundation of the world," and
in 1 Peter 1:20, where Christ was known "before the foundation
of the world".
[/quote]
I believe Judas was was one of those chosen by God "before the
foundation" to help Jesus redeem the world. I cannot believe
Jesus erred in picking Judas to be one of his disciples. Thus I
believe Judas will eventually returned to the "holy and
blameless" state he was in "before the foundation."
I have heard suicide called an "unforgivable sin" -- and that is
based on the belief that when our physical body dies, our fate
is sealed eternally. If that is so, we have a problem since he
died in a rather unholy and blameworthy state.
Let us not believe that these chosen ones can never sin. No,
they were going to be sent into a perilous world; and I think it
fair to say all of them sinned (except one) when they took on
human bodies. It is like health care workers volunteering to
go to an area with highly contagious disease. I believe that
such generous beings who had already achieved salvation before
would be left stranded for making mistakes here on earth. No
matter what happens, God will not permit any one of them to
perish.
Since I believe in reincarnation, I believe Judas was given
another chance in another lifetime. Could he not be forgiven if
in another lifetime he chose to lay down his own life?
#Post#: 2332--------------------------------------------------
Re: Judas
By: Kerry Date: September 27, 2025, 1:14 am
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Another perplexing problem is that John tells us in Revelation
that this group of those who were chosen from the foundation of
the earth had 144,000; and he says that there were twelve
sub-groups which corresponded the twelve tribes of Israel.
Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me,
What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came
they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have
washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the
Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him
day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne
shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither
shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed
them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and
God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
If they had to wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb, they
had fallen into some sin themselves. No problem for Heaven's
plan. Jesus carried that burden temporarily for them until they
could repay it themselves; and many of those original 144,000
did repay the debt for their errors by laying down their own
lives.
How do we reconcile this number with the 600,000 given for
Israel when they left Egypt? Quite simple really, and we see
how well God's plan worked even back then. Only 70 souls sent
down into Israel (70 of the 144,000) and so many "Gentiles" got
added that the number swelled to 600,000. Some of that was
through intermarriage and some by conversion. We humans may not
be able to discern which was which; but God knew which souls
were members of the original Israel and which got added.
It would be impossible for anyone who had belonged to the
original group to be lost. Thus Paul wrote:
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away
ungodliness from Jacob:
That same guarantee did not apply to the added souls. Again, I
refer to Paul who refers to this kind of soul as being "after
the flesh." Just because someone can trace his physical
ancestry back to Abraham doe not mean he was a member of Israel
from before the foundation.
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Nor should we assume that just because someone was born in a
Gentile body, it is impossible for him to have been part of the
group "foreknown" by God from before the foundation. If God has
a plan which requires someone in a position to do what His plan
calls for, one of his servants may be born as a Gentile to it.
Surely, Cyrus was one of the original Israel, but born as a
Gentile.
Isaiah 45:Thus saith the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose
right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I
will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved
gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
#Post#: 2333--------------------------------------------------
Re: Judas
By: Kerry Date: September 27, 2025, 2:13 am
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I do not understand fully how some numbers are calculated for
the spiritual significance of words; but I was amazed that the
number 288 has significance in Genesis 1.
HTML https://www.gematrix.org/?word=creation
A famous Jewish mystic saw the same number in the word "moved
upon" and concluded that there were 288,000 holy sparks to begin
with. I'd say multiply by a thousand to get 288,000, double the
144,000. That number of 288,000 is counting each saint twice,
since the saints in perfection are neither male nor female are
divided so they can become male and female in human incarnation.
Thus in a somewhat obscure way, I see Genesis and Revelation
agreeing. Now note what John wrote about these saints.
Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with
women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the
Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men,
being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
The word in Greek for "virgins" in that verse means either an
unmarried woman or a woman who has never had sex. That is what
it means; and that is how it is used elsewhere in the New
Testament.
HTML https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3933/kjv/tr/0-1/
So John is saying first that they're male, but then he uses a
word used for women! What is the answer? They are both male
and female. They have returned to their original undivided
state before they incarnated as male and female.
Thus in human incarnations, there would be 288,000 of this
original group foreknown by God before they were born. Half
would be male, half female. I think this explains how Esther
and other women could be considered to belong to this group. If
you clicked on the link above, you saw how "Esther" also has the
number 288. I say, "How appropriate!"
#Post#: 2334--------------------------------------------------
Re: Judas
By: Mike Waters Date: September 27, 2025, 6:08 am
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Kerry, your powerfully and heavily derived thoughts are either
so commendable, or so beyond our allotted 'need to know'
parameters. that I know not how to respond.
I retreat to
"I am not skilled to understand
What God hath Willed, what God hath Planned
I only know at His right hand, Stands one who is My Saviour"
Maybe 'Judas' is but a typification of similar carnations
throughout the ions of time.
For me 'Scripture' is but the product of the fallible followers
of one particular 'Religion' which Christ completely repitched
at the moment of his 'Glorification'.
From where do I derive that inclination?
Paradoxically from 'Scripture'... or was it from stuff implanted
into the fleshy tablets of my heart (albeit that scripture was
merely the tool the God used in that particular instance).
#Post#: 2335--------------------------------------------------
Re: Judas
By: Kerry Date: September 27, 2025, 6:28 am
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[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=77.msg2334#msg2334
date=1758971291]
Kerry, your powerfully and heavily derived thoughts are either
so commendable, or so beyond our allotted 'need to know'
parameters. that I know not how to respond.
I retreat to
"I am not skilled to understand
What God hath Willed, what God hath Planned
I only know at His right hand, Stands one who is My Saviour"
Maybe 'Judas' is but a typification of similar carnations
throughout the ions of time.
[/quote]I agree it's largely beyond our need to know; but I
think if we want to delve more into things, or if we begin to
lose faith without certain answers, those answers can be found.
Judas reminds me of Saul. Saul was also tempted by greed.
I believe, by the way, that when God has a plan that needs a
servant on earth, He sends at least two. Then if the first one
strays, the second can step up to do the job.
#Post#: 2336--------------------------------------------------
Re: Judas
By: Mike Waters Date: September 27, 2025, 8:34 am
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Kerry, For my part I would welcome a friendly thread regarding
Reincarnation.
Would you be 'up for it'.?
I would have many questions and, like so many of us, would be
burdened by a lifetime of our particular 'indoctrinations'.
But hopefully all of us would remain reasonably 'open minded'.
I know what it's like to be out of kilter with 'mainstream',
having been indoctrinated by the difference between the 'Gift'
of Eternal life in God's ultimate New Jerusalem, sitting
comfortably alongside the interim 'Prize' of being "accounted
worthy" to reign with Christ for a metaphoric 'thousand' years
via a selective 'Rapture'.
Being mindful of this Forum's URL
HTML https://unitedindiversity.createaforum.com/
#Post#: 2337--------------------------------------------------
Re: Judas
By: Kerry Date: September 27, 2025, 10:56 am
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[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=77.msg2336#msg2336
date=1758980040]
Kerry, For my part I would welcome a friendly thread regarding
Reincarnation.
Would you be 'up for it'.?
I would have many questions and, like so many of us, would be
burdened by a lifetime of our particular 'indoctrinations'.
But hopefully all of us would remain reasonably 'open minded'.
I know what it's like to be out of kilter with 'mainstream',
having been indoctrinated by the difference between the 'Gift'
of Eternal life in God's ultimate New Jerusalem, sitting
comfortably alongside the interim 'Prize' of being "accounted
worthy" to reign with Christ for a metaphoric 'thousand' years
via a selective 'Rapture'.
Being mindful of this Forum's URL
HTML https://unitedindiversity.createaforum.com/
[/quote]
I hope I can collect my thoughts enough to be able to present my
beliefs on reincarnation. At the moment, I don't know where to
start. Perhaps a good starting point is why it seems so few
people achieve the perfection of a Moses, an Enoch, or an Elijah
or even of John. Their cases are different, of course; but they
also share some things in common.
#Post#: 2338--------------------------------------------------
Re: Judas
By: Mike Waters Date: September 27, 2025, 12:43 pm
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First response by me would be to ask whether reincarnation
happens for everybody or is it by Divine selective intervention?
Second would be "do the reincarnated ever get re-reincarnated"?
Does that help you to "Know where to get started"?
#Post#: 2339--------------------------------------------------
Re: Judas
By: Mike Waters Date: September 27, 2025, 12:51 pm
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Here's the AI overview.
While there is no scientific evidence for reincarnation,
different religious and spiritual traditions offer varying
perspectives on who is reincarnated and if it is an ongoing
process.
Reincarnation for everybody vs. selective intervention
Hinduism:
All souls are in a cycle of rebirth (samsara)
For everybody:
All living things possess an eternal atman (soul) that is
repeatedly born in different bodies until it achieves liberation
(moksha).
Divine selective intervention:
Rebirth is determined by the law of karma, the cause-and-effect
relationship between a soul's actions and its future life. The
circumstances of one's new life—whether in a higher or lower
form, or a different realm—are the direct consequence of the
accumulated karma from past lives. This process is not a random
or divine selection but rather an automatic moral law of the
universe.
Not a permanent cycle:
The ultimate goal is to reach moksha, a state of spiritual
realization where the soul is freed from the cycle of rebirth
and reunited with the ultimate reality, Brahman.
Buddhism:
All beings are caught in a cycle of rebirth (samsara)
For everybody:
Like Hinduism, Buddhism teaches that all sentient beings are
caught in an endless cycle of birth, death, and rebirth.
Dependent on karma:
The specific realm one is reborn into—including heavens, the
human world, or animal and hell realms—is determined by their
kamma (karma), or intentional actions, in their previous life.
Good actions lead to better rebirths, while bad actions lead to
worse ones.
"Rebirth," not "reincarnation":
While many use the term "reincarnation," Buddhists prefer
"rebirth" to emphasize that nothing permanent, like a soul or
atman, transmigrates. Instead, a stream of consciousness or a
bundle of karmic traces is passed to the next life, similar to
how one flame lights another.
Not a permanent cycle:
The cycle of rebirth is viewed as something to be escaped. The
ultimate goal is to achieve enlightenment and reach nirvana,
thereby ending the cycle of suffering and rebirth.
Do the reincarnated ever get re-reincarnated?
Yes, in the cyclical view of reincarnation, a soul is born again
and again in a continuous chain of existences, unless it
achieves liberation.
The cycle continues until liberation:
In traditions like Hinduism and Buddhism, the cycle of rebirth
(samsara) is the default state of existence. A soul or
consciousness will continue to be reborn into different forms
across many lifetimes.
The cycle is not eternal:
The process is not infinite for any one soul. The cycle ends
only when the being achieves a state of spiritual realization
(moksha or nirvana) and is liberated from the need for further
reincarnation.
No predetermined number of lives:
There is no strict rule on the number of lifetimes a soul will
experience. The journey continues until spiritual maturity or
enlightenment is reached. One may be reborn only a handful of
times or for thousands of lifetimes.
#Post#: 2340--------------------------------------------------
Re: Judas
By: Dave Date: September 27, 2025, 2:30 pm
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As one who has been indoctrinated with the belief of 'For as in
Adam all died even so in Christ shall all be made alive.'
I'll have to leave you to your re-incarnation indoctrinations
lol.
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