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#Post#: 2053--------------------------------------------------
Garments of Jesus
By: Kerry Date: July 4, 2025, 4:11 am
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Paul wrote that all scripture is "profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. . . .
" Is there a doctrine to be drawn from how the garments of
Jesus were parted? It shouldn't be a "mere fact." There should
be a lesson behind it.
Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments,
casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the
prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture
did they cast lots.
It was an important enough detail to have been prophesied as
Matthew pointed out.
Psalm 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon
my vesture.
What does it mean?
#Post#: 2056--------------------------------------------------
Re: Garments of Jesus
By: Pat Date: July 4, 2025, 9:26 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=65.msg2053#msg2053
date=1751620290]
Paul wrote that all scripture is "profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. . . .
" Is there a doctrine to be drawn from how the garments of
Jesus were parted? It shouldn't be a "mere fact." There should
be a lesson behind it.
Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments,
casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the
prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture
did they cast lots.
It was an important enough detail to have been prophesied as
Matthew pointed out.
Psalm 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon
my vesture.
What does it mean?
[/quote]
Interesting thought.
#Post#: 2058--------------------------------------------------
Re: Garments of Jesus
By: Dave Date: July 4, 2025, 2:48 pm
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We know part of the purpose ofJesus was to be the fulfillment of
the law, Psalms and prophets, he drives the devil away with 'it
is written' in his quote 'time' of temptation.
John pens in chp 19 vs 23 & 24 that the soldiers made 'four'
parts, the coat is the most interesting being seamless, woven
from top throughout; at His rising the veil was rent top to
bottom. Four is a cardinal number and was known as sacred and
complete but I'm sure the soldiers would not have known that.
Over to you Kerry for the WOW bit.
#Post#: 2061--------------------------------------------------
Re: Garments of Jesus
By: Kerry Date: July 4, 2025, 6:15 pm
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[quote author=Dave link=topic=65.msg2058#msg2058
date=1751658525]
We know part of the purpose ofJesus was to be the fulfillment of
the law, Psalms and prophets, he drives the devil away with 'it
is written' in his quote 'time' of temptation.
John pens in chp 19 vs 23 & 24 that the soldiers made 'four'
parts, the coat is the most interesting being seamless, woven
from top throughout; at His rising the veil was rent top to
bottom. Four is a cardinal number and was known as sacred and
complete but I'm sure the soldiers would not have known that.
Over to you Kerry for the WOW bit.
[/quote]
I am still undecided what the four means in the Book of John.
Could it be referring to the four corners of the earth? I'm
thinking it might. The soldiers were Gentiles, of course. Was
something being passed from the Jews to the Gentiles? There may
a a clue about that in Psalm 22. It helps to know that Gentiles
were sometimes called "dogs" by the Jews.
Psalm 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the
wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Now back to your "four." The word four may not be explicitly
there, but is it implied? I think it is.
Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn
unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship
before thee.
We also have these passages to consider.
Zechariah 8:23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it
shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all
languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of
him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have
heard that God is with you.
Matthew 9:20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an
issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the
hem of his garment:
Matthew 14:36 And besought him that they might only touch the
hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly
whole.
Perhaps more later since I'm running behind schedule in things I
need to do. I found the mention of "four" interesting. Thanks
for bringing that up.
#Post#: 2078--------------------------------------------------
Re: Garments of Jesus
By: Dave Date: July 8, 2025, 6:52 pm
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It's seems there is a vast spectrum of thought on this seamless
garment that Jesus didn't need, mainly as too it's value more
than it's significance.
This led me to the parable of the Ten Virgins, all the parables
speak to the Kingdom that was to be a lost cause for Israel.
Christianity uses it a foretaste of what's to come with the
admonition on having extra oil on hand.
This took me to have a look at Lev 16 and the most important day
for the nation Israel, Yom Kippur.
the day of Atonement when traditionally God seals the books of
life and death for the coming year, we know the story of the two
goats. one chosen to life and one chosen to die, the scapegoat
is then taken by a gentile, Azazel is said to be a strong steep
cliff where the goat is thrown over carrying the sin of the
nation, a scarlet thread had been attached to the temple and is
not removed util the man returns with news that the goat is
dead, then a white thread replaces the red. Everything is on
hold 'until' and no one knows the hour until the tarrying
bridegroom makes his appearance after maybe the white thread has
appeared. During this period the High Priest changes clothes
from linen to Priestly garments and one would be similar to the
one Jesus wore.
#Post#: 2079--------------------------------------------------
Re: Garments of Jesus
By: Kerry Date: July 9, 2025, 4:26 am
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[quote author=Dave link=topic=65.msg2078#msg2078
date=1752018743]
It's seems there is a vast spectrum of thought on this seamless
garment that Jesus didn't need, mainly as too it's value more
than it's significance.
This led me to the parable of the Ten Virgins, all the parables
speak to the Kingdom that was to be a lost cause for Israel.
Christianity uses it a foretaste of what's to come with the
admonition on having extra oil on hand.
This took me to have a look at Lev 16 and the most important day
for the nation Israel, Yom Kippur.
the day of Atonement when traditionally God seals the books of
life and death for the coming year, we know the story of the two
goats. one chosen to life and one chosen to die, the scapegoat
is then taken by a gentile, Azazel is said to be a strong steep
cliff where the goat is thrown over carrying the sin of the
nation, a scarlet thread had been attached to the temple and is
not removed util the man returns with news that the goat is
dead, then a white thread replaces the red. Everything is on
hold 'until' and no one knows the hour until the tarrying
bridegroom makes his appearance after maybe the white thread has
appeared. During this period the High Priest changes clothes
from linen to Priestly garments and one would be similar to the
one Jesus wore.
[/quote]
It seems that "thread" may mean a strip of cloth. The red strip
was supposed to change from red to white on its own. Jewish
tradition (not Christian) says that this miracle stopped
happening 40 years before the destruction of the Temple in 70
AD. That would mean the first time it failed to turn white was
30 AD. Does that connect with the Crucifixion?
HTML https://www.sefaria.org/Yoma.39b.6?lang=bi
The Sages taught: During the tenure of Shimon HaTzaddik, the lot
for God always arose in the High Priest’s right hand; after his
death, it occurred only occasionally; but during the forty years
prior to the destruction of the Second Temple, the lot for God
did not arise in the High Priest’s right hand at all. So too,
the strip of crimson wool that was tied to the head of the goat
that was sent to Azazel did not turn white, and the westernmost
lamp of the candelabrum did not burn continually.
Another thing to consider is that there were two goats. One was
driven over a cliff. Were Jesus and Judas the two goats, one
sacrificed and one dying by falling off a cliff? It seems that
the thread not changing to white meant that animal sacrifices
were no longer acceptable?
It is not clear to me if there was only one strip. Depending on
how the lots fell, perhaps the red strip was tied to the goat
driven out to its death? If the lots fell the other way, the
red strip stayed in the Temple and turned white?
#Post#: 2104--------------------------------------------------
Re: Garments of Jesus
By: Dave Date: July 12, 2025, 12:25 pm
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Kerry did the goats have to undergo scrutiny for this ritual, I
liked your thought on Jesus and Judas!!!
In the story of the woman with the issue of blood, she pushed
through to touch 'His garment' but did she know there was no
virtue in the garment; but she did know, it was her only way to
Him to be healed.
I believe she had moved from wishing ( spent all) to wanting.
Wanting involves and requires something from her it was to 'stop
the bleeding' in this life if you want to 'stop the bleeding'
(what ever that entails) you have to want it bad enough to pay
the price, in the story it is told He was walking away from her,
paying the price took her closer to the Lord and her healing.
It's the truth that Jesus did it all, to walk with Him has a
price and the price is not a one size fits all.
His admonition from the beginning is Him walking away saying
"Come follow ME"
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9FqFC0WA-o.
#Post#: 2108--------------------------------------------------
Re: Garments of Jesus
By: Kerry Date: July 12, 2025, 11:55 pm
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[quote author=Dave link=topic=65.msg2104#msg2104
date=1752341125]
Kerry did the goats have to undergo scrutiny for this ritual, I
liked your thought on Jesus and Judas!!![/quote]
I'm short on time and hope to discuss your other point later.
All animals were inspected for physical defects, at least for
burnt offerings.
Leviticus 22:23 Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing
superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for
a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.
24 Ye shall not offer unto the Lord that which is bruised, or
crushed, or broken, or cut; neither shall ye make any offering
thereof in your land.
Peter compares the blood Jesus to that of a lamb without
blemish.
1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb
without blemish and without spot:
I have a problem I haven't quite resolved.
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was
bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was
upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
The word for "bruised" in different from the one in Isaiah; I
can't see much difference although the passage in Leviticus
likely refers to bruised testicles or to other problems of the
sort like castrated animals.
Free will offerings could be less than perfect physically. Does
this mean Jesus offering himself up as a free will offering?
According to Hebrews, yes.
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who
through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God,
purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Or does it mean that Jesus bleeding physically was not when he
offered up his blood? After all, at the Last Supper which
preceded the crucifixion, he also offered his blood and body in
the act we now call Communion.
#Post#: 2113--------------------------------------------------
Re: Garments of Jesus
By: Kerry Date: July 14, 2025, 1:58 am
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[quote author=Dave link=topic=65.msg2104#msg2104
date=1752341125]
In the story of the woman with the issue of blood, she pushed
through to touch 'His garment' but did she know there was no
virtue in the garment; but she did know, it was her only way to
Him to be healed.
I believe she had moved from wishing ( spent all) to wanting.
Wanting involves and requires something from her it was to 'stop
the bleeding' in this life if you want to 'stop the bleeding'
(what ever that entails) you have to want it bad enough to pay
the price, in the story it is told He was walking away from her,
paying the price took her closer to the Lord and her healing.
It's the truth that Jesus did it all, to walk with Him has a
price and the price is not a one size fits all.
His admonition from the beginning is Him walking away saying
"Come follow ME"
[/quote]I draw a few other conclusions.
She would have been unclean by Jewish law; and anything she
touched would be too. The passage says she touched his garment,
but then Jesus said she had touched him. He sensed that because
he felt "virtue" or "power" leaving him. I read that to mean
something like an electrical connection was made.
[b]Mark 5:25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood
twelve years,
26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had
spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather
grew worse,
27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and
touched his garment.
28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be
whole.
29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and
she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had
gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who
touched my clothes?
31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude
thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this
thing.
33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in
her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee
whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.[b]
I rather think his garment was holy the way priests' garments
were considered holy.
So did his "power" or her "faith" cure her?
#Post#: 2118--------------------------------------------------
Re: Garments of Jesus
By: Dave Date: July 18, 2025, 10:08 pm
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And he said unto her " Daughter, THY faith hath made thee whole;
go in peace, and be whole of thy plague"
This lady is the only one Jesus calls 'daughter'; her 'faith'
had taken her the whole way until she is unable to go further,
why is it we wait for the end to draw nigh, then we turn to the
Lord?
I think her journey to Jesus had had the thread of faith in what
she had tried.
The virtue was not in the garment but she knew the power was in
Jesus and just which hem did she touch?
She in a sense meant nothing to Him but He calls her Daughter.
It would appear in this incident that it was a combination of
her 'faith' and the resident 'power' of the Lord.
Jesus told the 12 that they would receive power after the Holy
Ghost came upon them, but they had been empowered at the call to
come and follow Him.
And they marvelled that the signs that they did, but they were
very often rebuked on the 'faith' bit.
But this Daughter pushes through in spite of the crush, how does
one measure faith is a good question.
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