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#Post#: 1958--------------------------------------------------
Faith and Works
By: Kerry Date: June 27, 2025, 8:11 pm
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Why did Jesus tell his disciples he was going to stop calling
them servants but would call them friends? What changed?
John`15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant
knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends;
for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known
unto you.
Today's Western culture is at a disadvantage since the idea of
indentured servants is foreign to us. There were various
reasons someone could become such a servant. Criminals were
sometimes made indentured servants to pay for past crimes.
Someone who borrowed money and couldn't repay it were too.
Others wanted to learn a craft and were willing to work for next
to nothing doing whatever their master told them to do. Note
please that under this system, nothing was free.
Now let us look at what Moses wrote of Hebrew servants.
Exodus 21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall
serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
The period the disciples "served" was shorter; but the point
remains. When their apprenticeship was over, they owed Jesus
nothing and he could treat them more like equals. Moses goes
on:
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he
were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him
sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her
master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my
wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also
bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master
shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him
for ever.
Eleven of the twelve loved Jesus so much, they wanted to serve
him for ever. They didn't owe him anything or even need him
again; they loved him.
What does Jesus expect from us today after we come to him? He
doesn't expect us to be perfect all at once. His disciples
weren't; but he does expect us to learn if we happen to stumble.
Obeying the Golden Rule can be confusing at times. Sometimes we
realize we broke it only after things turn out poorly. That is a
sin of ignorance and easily repented of. If we sin however
knowing we're sinning, Jesus won't bear that burden for us. We
will have to bear it ourselves and pay for it ourselves. It
doesn't mean we're damned for it, but Jesus isn't going forgive
it for us and then bear the burden.
The people who accused Jesus of having an unclean spirit knew
better. They had enough guidance from the Spirit to know that;
and they rejected the guidance, placing themselves in great
jeopardy. Note carefully this sin does not condemn someone to
eternal damnation but only puts them in danger of it.
Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto
the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall
blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never
forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
To sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth
about a matter is dangerous indeed, and don't expect Jesus to
pay the bond or bail.
2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known
the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to
turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb,
The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was
washed to her wallowing in the mire.
I repeat this does not mean they're eternally damned. It just
makes it harder for them when it comes to that sin. We see some
ministers afflicted by this weakness or that. Jesus won't help
them if they knew what they were doing when they did it.
They're on their own. He may have paid for it once; but don't
commit the sin of presumption that he'll do it again. He did
not rescue us from sins so we could continue to "wallow" in
them.
#Post#: 1959--------------------------------------------------
Re: Faith and Works
By: Kerry Date: June 27, 2025, 8:49 pm
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Let us not imagine that God is not fair. God is not like a
partial parent who excuses poor behavior of his children. We
should not want Him to be unjust, showing favoritism to us over
others. We will all ultimately be judged by our deeds, both good
and evil. Some people seem to want to be Christians so they can
get away with sinning. That is not repenting. That is wanting
to do it but not pay for it by having a corrupt judge.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand
before God; and the books were opened: and another book was
opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out
of those things which were written in the books, according to
their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and
they were judged every man according to their works.
Jesus found a way to help us ultimately pay for our own sins by
temporarily bearing them as a burden and to show us how to do
more good deeds and fewer evil ones.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is sometimes dismissed as
depicting something in an unreal way. However it depicts hades
the way the Jews do. Jewish theology may help explain it too.
Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in
purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid
at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the
rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by
the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was
buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth
Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and
send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water,
and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime
receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things:
but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf
fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot;
neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou
wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest
they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let
them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them
from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the
prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from
the dead.
God is completely just. We all have a mixture of good and evil
deeds; and ultimately we will receive the rewards and
punishments. Lazarus had more good deeds than evil; and he
"paid" for his evil deeds by suffering in this world. He had
not yet received his rewards while in this world but got them in
the world to come. The rich man was the opposite with more evil
deeds than good and fewer punishments than rewards. Thus in the
world to come, he still had punishments coming to him.
Note too that the rich man could have made his fate easier in
the world to come had he showed compassion for Lazarus. He
still hadn't repented of that sin of lacking compassion so we
see him wanting Lazarus to enter the fires to bring him a drop
of water. He was asking for Lazarus to help pay for his lack of
compassion.
You may be amazed to learn that being in hades like that needn't
be so painful. The flames that were causing the rich man pain
were the Flames of Love. He was resisting Love. If he could
have relaxed and accepted his fate, he would have repented and
the Flames of Love would have burned away all impurities on his
heart.
The saints experiences such flames as Love as in:
Luke 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he
vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within
us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to
us the scriptures?
If someone winds up in hell, he should remember God is Love and
the experience of hell is meant for his benefit. God is in hell,
yes.
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I
make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
#Post#: 1962--------------------------------------------------
Re: Faith and Works
By: Kerry Date: June 28, 2025, 1:49 am
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I am somewhat reluctant to share a vision I had of gehinnom; but
I will. Just please don't think I'm a prophet or meant to be a
prophet. The experience was given to me for my benefit when I
was still confused about certain things.
When my Mother died, naturally I was curious about where she was
and what she was doing. Let me explain first however that when
I wake up groggy, I know anything I saw in a dream was not from
Heaven. Dreams or visions from God always have the person
returning to earthly consciousness completely alert. Anyway I
found myself in a place I didn't recognize and my Mother was
there on what I could best describe as a bed of flames. I was
alarmed, I admit it. I asked my Mother if she wanted me to ask
Jesus to rescue her. She said no. The flames weren't hurting
her at all, and she did have a lovely expression on her face.
She said impurities were being burned away and she was glad.
That was about it. I returned to my body and woke up totally
alert.
My Mother had a troubled life. There are still things I don't
know about with much certainty; but I know her father was a
nasty man who used to bother almost daily after my Grandmother
died. We lived just down the road from him so he could do that
easily. He had always hated my Father, and I won't go into that
long story; but I'm guessing he kept preaching to my Mother how
she never should have married him. Maybe not for all I know
since y Father cheated on my Mother. The details? Perhaps the
critical detail was when he confessed to her having an affair
with a woman when he was in the military. He likely wanted to
come clean about it so my Mother would forgive him. I don't
think she could find it in her to forgive and forget. She was
cold with him; and then he started to wander about. There was a
girl in my class in high school who may have been my stepsister
since my Father hung out with her mother. Even more surprising
was the day when they were having a spat. I don't know how it
started; but I'm thinking my Father wanted sex and my Mother
said no, she didn't want to have sex with him. At that, he flew
into a rage and said he and a guy I'll call E here didn't need
women. They could give each other pleasure. E and my Father
were neighbors when they were kids, so I'm guessing they had sex
when boys.
Was that story about him saying he didn't need women right?
Probably since one evening I went visiting with my Father where
E often hung out with another man and his wife. That night was
hot and the woman was wearing only a white bra for a top. My
Father chatted with her for a while and then E showed up. My
Father said he and E had something to do and he left me alone
with the woman watching TV in her bra. My Father did come back
in probably 15 to 20 minutes.
These things drove my Mother crazy. She was institutionalized
twice. I suspect other things were also on her mind; but the
pressure meant she wasn't in her right mind. I could say I
think she should have forgiven him, but I can understand why
perhaps she couldn't in the frame of mind she was in. Even when
she got out of the institution, she tried to live right and I
think she was a very loving person but she was still never quite
herself. I hope my vision was right, that this impurity was
being burned away by the Flames of Love in hades.
It's okay with me if you don't believe in my vision since I
believe it was to benefit me. I loved God after that; and I
figure if a belief makes me love God more, it's probably true.
#Post#: 1963--------------------------------------------------
Re: Faith and Works
By: Mike Waters Date: June 28, 2025, 2:54 am
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Responses by me will be on a different 'tack'.
That is not to say which 'tack' is the better, or whether either
'tack' is right or wrong.
Just that each is different.
For my part I'm a firm believer that we live in a new
'denomination' of Divine Communication, that I believe to have
begun at the moment of Christ's 'Glorification'.
When he gave the 'reigns' of communication to the Holy Spirit in
a new and stronger way than ever before.
By which I mean the implantation of the 'REAL' Word of God into
the "fleshy tablets of Man's Heart".
(No longer via Tablets of Stone, and no longer necessarily or
always via words written on scrolls of Papyrus.)
For that reason, whilst the real Word of God gets implanted into
'MY' heart via numerous written or spoken sources, not all will
come from what we call 'Scripture'.
Hence I will write what is 'in my heart', which I will not
necessarily always try to authenticate by quoting 'pen on
papyrus' chapter and verse.
Nevertheless much of what I write will be recognised as being
sourced from 'New Testament Scripture' without me quoting
chapter and verse.
Can you all please try to 'make room' for my convictive modus
operandi?
#Post#: 1964--------------------------------------------------
Re: Faith and Works
By: Kerry Date: June 28, 2025, 3:39 am
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[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=61.msg1963#msg1963
date=1751097243]
Responses by me will be on a different 'tack'.
For my part I'm a firm believer that we live in a new
'denomination' of Divine Communication, that I believe to have
begun at the moment of Christ's 'Glorification'.
When he gave the 'reigns' of communication to the Holy Spirit in
a new and stronger way than ever before.
By which I mean the implantation of the 'REAL' Word of God into
the "fleshy tablets of Man's Heart".
[/quote]From the beginning, the Word of God was meant to be
heard by men and women and to be written on their hearts. Thus
Adam and Eve could hear the Voice of God clearly. Noah and
others also heard it. I would say the ones who could hear it
were part of Israel from the beginning with their names written
in the Book of Life from the beginning. They were God's sheep.
We have to ask why Israel needed written words. Israel had the
"old covenant" while the Gentiles didn't. (So the covenant
Jesus was bringing would be a "new covenant" for the Jews but
not for Gentiles since they hadn't had the "old one" or broken
its terms; thus they hadn't hardened their hearts by rejecting
it. Am I making sense?)
Deuteronomy 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day,
shall be in thine heart:
At Sinai, all 600,000 people who left Egypt -- some were of the
original 144,000 and some were Gentiles who had been added on --
but all heard the Voice of God. The problem was most had hearts
which were too hard to understand the spiritual Voice. Moses
heard it all clearly, Joshua heard more than the people; but the
average person heard and understood only Ten Words, or Ten
Sayings. Decalogue is a better term than the Ten Commandments
since there were 613 commandments. The average person felt
threatened since they heard it as a loud trumpet.
For their own safety, the average people with impurities in
their hearts were told not to approach the mountain top. When
the trumpet waxed loud and strong, it frightened the people so
much they asked Moses to go talk with God somewhere else.
Exodus 20:9 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we
will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to
prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye
sin not.
Thus the "Written Torah" was given as a substitute for the Oral
Torah or Oral Law. The written words in our Bibles are not the
actual Word of God; but they were in human language which people
could understand better than the Voice which frightened them. By
studying the written words, people could come to see some of
their sins; and if they repented of them, God would remove the
stony parts from their hearts and replace it with spiritual
flesh.
Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit
will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out
of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
The purpose of wearing written words in objects worn on the hand
and between the eyes was to remind them of the need to soften
their hearts and to remove also impure thoughts from the
imagination of the inner eye. They also needed to use what they
learned to do good deeds. The same was also on other things to
remind them.
Deuteronomy 11:18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in
your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your
hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
19 And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when
thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way,
when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
20 And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house,
and upon thy gates:
No one can write down with complete accuracy in human words the
Word of God. Until we understand something and see God's Wisdom
and Goodness in a particular written law, we can struggle along
doing the best we can.
John wrote:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with
God, and the Word was God.
Back to Genesis now:
Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in
the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid
themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees
of the garden.
When Eve hearkened to the voice of the serpent and Adam to her
voice, both were hardening their hearts. Yes, the voice was
walking in the garden as it says. It is easy to believe God
cursed the serpent and the earth; but did He? Or had Adam and
Eve, who had been given dominion over the earth, curse it? Was
God informing them of what they had done?
#Post#: 1965--------------------------------------------------
Re: Faith and Works
By: Mike Waters Date: June 28, 2025, 9:33 am
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Kerry, I have to confess that my simple overview is the result
of my need to rationalise my doubts as I have struggled with the
endemic forum chaos of "Thus saith the plenary Word of God"
versus "oh no it doesn't, this is what it says".
I am unable to fault your overview which puts mine to shame.
The stage is yours, Bro.
#Post#: 1966--------------------------------------------------
Re: Faith and Works
By: Mike Waters Date: June 28, 2025, 10:39 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=61.msg1962#msg1962
date=1751093341]
I am somewhat reluctant to share a vision I had of gehinnom; but
I will.
[/quote]
Now I'll try my hand at what I have known as 'Gehenna'.
To the best of my research it refers to the valley immediately
outside of the walls of Jerusalem which was used as the dumping
ground for all manner of waste.
In those days 'spontaneous combustion' was unknown, and the heat
generated was superstitiously regarded as destructive punishment
which some even equated to the heathen God of Molec who had to
be placated by the human sacrifice in Gehenna of babies.
All but one of the New Testament words translated as 'Hell' were
in fact 'Gehenna' and the translation derived from the medieval
conviction of "Hellfire" as being God's punishment for 'sin'.
The misunderstanding led to the Jewish conviction of Gehenna
being a 'lake of fire' and the term 'Bottomless Pit' derived
from the discovery of actual fire whenever anyone dug deeper
into the smouldering remains of compost.
The superstition was so deeply imbedded into Jewish tradition
that it pervaded the hallucinations of the 90 years old John, as
he laid on his bed hewn from rock and wrote Revelation, during
his Patmos confinement.
Nuff said for now to earn me excommunication.
#Post#: 1967--------------------------------------------------
Re: Faith and Works
By: Rita Date: June 28, 2025, 2:11 pm
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Your visions ties in with something I have believed for some
time, about there being a refiners fire - to take away all the
impurities. Since reading a book that Dave and Helen sent me
years ago ‘ love wins ‘ I found myself looking at the whole
issue of hell ect.
I don’t share my views very often as I equally know it’s not the
norm, but to me it makes more sense xxxxxx
#Post#: 1968--------------------------------------------------
Re: Faith and Works
By: Kerry Date: June 28, 2025, 4:04 pm
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[quote author=Rita link=topic=61.msg1967#msg1967
date=1751137884]
Your visions ties in with something I have believed for some
time, about there being a refiners fire - to take away all the
impurities. Since reading a book that Dave and Helen sent me
years ago ‘ love wins ‘ I found myself looking at the whole
issue of hell ect.
I don’t share my views very often as I equally know it’s not the
norm, but to me it makes more sense xxxxxx
[/quote]It seems nothing impure can keep existing in its impure
state in the Presence of God. Whatever is impure will burn away
yes, just like the fire refines gold or silver.
Exodus 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because
the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof
ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked
greatly.
Hearts can burn gently if we want to love God more and do not
resist His Love?
Proverbs 17:3 The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for
gold: but the Lord trieth the hearts.
Thus we feel sometimes a warmth in our chest area when praising
God. We may even feel that warmth when we love others -- as
selfish traits are being burned away. I believe when we love
others, we are allowing God to act through us. He made us like
Him originally; and when we choose love, we are choosing to let
go of the impurities.
#Post#: 1969--------------------------------------------------
Re: Faith and Works
By: Kerry Date: June 28, 2025, 4:40 pm
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[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=61.msg1966#msg1966
date=1751125180]
Now I'll try my hand at what I have known as 'Gehenna'.
To the best of my research it refers to the valley immediately
outside of the walls of Jerusalem which was used as the dumping
ground for all manner of waste.
In those days 'spontaneous combustion' was unknown, and the heat
generated was superstitiously regarded as destructive punishment
which some even equated to the heathen God of Molec who had to
be placated by the human sacrifice in Gehenna of babies.
All but one of the New Testament words translated as 'Hell' were
in fact 'Gehenna' and the translation derived from the medieval
conviction of "Hellfire" as being God's punishment for 'sin'.
The misunderstanding led to the Jewish conviction of Gehenna
being a 'lake of fire' and the term 'Bottomless Pit' derived
from the discovery of actual fire whenever anyone dug deeper
into the smouldering remains of compost.
The superstition was so deeply imbedded into Jewish tradition
that it pervaded the hallucinations of the 90 years old John, as
he laid on his bed hewn from rock and wrote Revelation, during
his Patmos confinement.
Nuff said for now to earn me excommunication.[/quote]
I'd need to do more research about the various words translated
"hell"; but when Jesus used it in the story of the rich man and
Lazarus, the word is "hades." His depiction is extremely close
to the Jewish one which says Paradise and Hell are next to each
other. Hades is depicted there as having flames.
The theory that the spiritual idea of hellfire came from the
physical fire might be reversing things. Maybe the trash pile
outside of Jerusalem got named after the spiritual idea? Even
today we hear people describe situations or places as "hell" to
communicate an idea.
What is the gulf described by Jesus? My guess is it's a gap in
space and time. I lack words to define it since it seems to be
outside of time and space. My understanding of it is only Jesus
can safely venture there. Someone can get out of hades only
when he speaks the Word. For others to attempt it risks falling
into a bottomless pit where time and space no longer exist --
the way things were before creation.
You and many others have a lot of explaining to do why John's
book of Revelation was accepted as inspired if it was so crazy.
Of course, many are also hard pressed to explain how "hell"
could be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
So what is "death" in that verse? "Hell" is "hades" while
"death" is "thanotos" The three are not the same then.
We probably need to look at how ideas evolved in Christianity.
What we know is that the early churches believed in what they
called purgatory. Most churches with Apostolic succession still
do. What happened?
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