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#Post#: 1598--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Kerry Date: May 29, 2025, 1:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=36.msg1596#msg1596
date=1748495575]
I think that there are three 'dispensations' of Divine
communication.
Firstly... The 'Word of God' carved on tablets of Stone.
[/quote]
What purpose did they serve? They were put inside the Ark of
the Covenant. Why?
[quote]Thirdly..The 'Word of God' written on the fleshy tablets
of man's heart (commencing at the point of Christ's
Glorification when he sent the Holy Spirit to thereon be the
'communicator')[/quote]
For Gentiles, I could agree in large part with you; but Israel
was told centuries before to write them on their souls and
hearts.
Deuteronomy 11:18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in
your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your
hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
#Post#: 1600--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Kerry Date: May 29, 2025, 3:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=36.msg1553#msg1553
date=1748375956]
It was quite some time before Revelation was accepted into the
'canon of scripture'
(that's just my frequent, non spiritual inclination)[/size]
[/quote]
I believe it was not adopted until later because it had been
written in Hebrew originally. I don't know if anyone else
believes that or even had the idea; but I will give you two
reasons I do believe it.
The first is the huge number of variations in the texts we have.
There are more variations in this book than in the rest of the
New Testament put together. That wouldn't make sense if scribes
had been making copies from an original text.
The other reason is peculiar language. The one that comes to
mind right now is the odd language here:
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans
write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true
witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
The odd feature doesn't show up in English or in Greek. If you
could read it in Hebrew, it would be clear at once. Remember
that Hebrew doesn't have vowels except as additions to the root
word.
Amen = AMN
HTML https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h543/kjv/wlc/0-1/
Faithful and true = AMN
HTML https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h539/kjv/wlc/0-1/
If that were written without the vowels as Hebrew texts often
didn't have, you would be seeing the same word twice, perhaps
three times since other words formed from the root word mean
truthful, etc.
#Post#: 1613--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Amadeus Date: May 29, 2025, 5:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=36.msg1586#msg1586
date=1748465949]
Amadeus, best response that I can give to your many questions is
to tell you that they are identical to so much that preoccupies
my thoughts and convictions.
I conclude that 'great minds think alike' ... or more to the
point great minds are led similarly by the Holy Spirit.
Your quote from Jeremiah is constantly brought to my attention
by the Holy Spirit and is one of the 'milestones' of my walk of
faith.
God bless you ... Mike
[/quote]
I believe that God always has more for anyone who is seeking
more in the right way. Men are always limited but God is without
limits. Just within the written Book of what we call scripture
there are unfathomed depths. Are there also things of or from
God that are not included in written Scriptures?
1jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not
yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall
appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
How like Him can we be?
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also
which shall believe on me through their word;
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me,
and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world
may believe that thou hast sent me.
About whom was Jesus praying? Was it about you and me? He and
His Father were one! If Jesus was praying for us, would we or
could we then in all points become as He is? Consider this in
terms of being like or even part of a Trinity. Does this not
raise questions as to what the Trinity is or even if there is
such a thing?
#Post#: 1614--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Amadeus Date: May 29, 2025, 6:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=36.msg1592#msg1592
date=1748493995]
Notice that the "new covenant" is with Judah. Many people read
it as referring to Gentiles, but I do not.
Gentiles never hear the Voice of God -- or the Divine Word -- as
Israel did. Moses heard it all and understood it all. Joshua
understood more; but the people heard and understood only the
Decalogue often called the Ten Commandments. There were far
more than ten given however. The ten sayings or ten words were
what Israel could understand.[/quote]
Who are the Gentiles other than the heathen unbelievers? Do they
not consist of many of the natural children of Jacob as well
other natural offspring of Adam?
[quote]They did not want to hear the Voice of God. It was too
loud and threatening to them. If they had been totally perfect
or even willing to be totally perfect, it would have been a
"profound silence." They rejected God then in large part in a
way Gentiles never did since they didn't face this test.
[/quote]
Why insist on a natural separation between Jew and Gentile
according to the natural bloodlines? Do such differences
ultimately make any difference to God?
[quote]The "written laws" Moses produced then were in the human
language. It was not the Living Word however. It was the "Word
of God" only in a limited way, the best a human language could
convey the Truth. The Living Word is Eternal, will never pass
away. It was Perfect from the beginning and there was never any
reason to change any of it or to drop parts of it. David and
Jesus were referring to the Spiritual Law and not to the written
words of humans when they wrote:[/quote]
I believe I understand your meaning and I agree with you. The
letter of Scripture left alone, unread and not understood is
dead to men. If it has come to Life, it has done so by the
quickening of the Holy Spirit.
[quote]Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the
soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth
pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,
till all be fulfilled.
How else could Gentiles do the things "in the law" and be
rewarded for it? If they obeyed their consciences, they could.
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by
nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the
law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their
conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean
while accusing or else excusing one another;)
I say it's not really Scripture until it's written on the heart
as Jeremiah wrote.
Deuteronomy 11:18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in
your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your
hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
These physical objects were meant to remind Israel to lay up
God's words in their hearts and souls.
[/quote]
Types and shadows are here to hopefully lead to reality. The
Living Word of God is Reality. The letter of even the scriptures
is dead and like man himself following any lead other than the
Holy Spirit remains a fiction until and if quickened.
#Post#: 1615--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Kerry Date: May 29, 2025, 9:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Amadeus link=topic=36.msg1614#msg1614
date=1748559895]
Who are the Gentiles other than the heathen unbelievers? Do they
not consist of many of the natural children of Jacob as well
other natural offspring of Adam?
[/quote]I see a difference. I believe the original Israel
consisted of 144,000 souls. Their names were written in the Book
of Life from the foundation of this world. The Lamb was also
slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship
him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb
slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and
shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:
and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were
not written in the book of life from the foundation of the
world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet
is.
We often call people Jews when they worship as Jews. They got
"added on" but they do not have the same guarantee as the
original Israel -- they can be fooled.
The original Israel were like Jesus' sheep. Not one can be
lost. If one got lost, it was temporary. The shepherd would go
find him. No matter where the original 144,000 may have wound
up (even being born among Gentiles at times), not one could
possibly be lost forever.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be
ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own
conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until
the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There
shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away
ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away
their sins.
These sheep knew Jesus from the foundation of the world. Thus he
could call them and they came. "My sheep hear my voice and come
at my call." They were his sheep before he called them. They
took a vow to help Jesus from the foundation of this world.
They volunteered for the job, knowing it could cause them many
problems. Some might become blinded by the world and fall into
error; but God would never permit them to be lost. The agreement
gave Jesus the right to interfere with their so-called free
will. Their true will was to honor their vow; and if they fell
into error, it would be a "false will" giving Jesus the right to
interfere.
Consider now how the numbers of "Israel" swelled in Egypt. What
was it, 600,000 came out with Moses? We see that many Gentiles
had been added on then; and we also see it caused problems.
Yes, the original souls suffered; but it was worth it since so
many souls got added on. As Paul put it, many of the original
Israel were "blinded." But it paid off well.
Christians usually read Isaiah 53 as referring to Jesus while
Jesus read it as referring to Israel. I think it's both.
The uniqueness of the original Israel is also shown here:
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the
throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man
could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four
thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
#Post#: 1642--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Amadeus Date: June 1, 2025, 9:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=36.msg1615#msg1615
date=1748573281]
I see a difference. I believe the original Israel consisted of
144,000 souls. Their names were written in the Book of Life from
the foundation of this world. The Lamb was also slain from the
foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship
him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb
slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and
shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:
and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were
not written in the book of life from the foundation of the
world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet
is.
We often call people Jews when they worship as Jews. They got
"added on" but they do not have the same guarantee as the
original Israel -- they can be fooled.
The original Israel were like Jesus' sheep. Not one can be
lost. If one got lost, it was temporary. The shepherd would go
find him. No matter where the original 144,000 may have wound
up (even being born among Gentiles at times), not one could
possibly be lost forever.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be
ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own
conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until
the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There
shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away
ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away
their sins.
These sheep knew Jesus from the foundation of the world. Thus he
could call them and they came. "My sheep hear my voice and come
at my call." They were his sheep before he called them. They
took a vow to help Jesus from the foundation of this world.
They volunteered for the job, knowing it could cause them many
problems. Some might become blinded by the world and fall into
error; but God would never permit them to be lost. The agreement
gave Jesus the right to interfere with their so-called free
will. Their true will was to honor their vow; and if they fell
into error, it would be a "false will" giving Jesus the right to
interfere.
Consider now how the numbers of "Israel" swelled in Egypt. What
was it, 600,000 came out with Moses? We see that many Gentiles
had been added on then; and we also see it caused problems.
Yes, the original souls suffered; but it was worth it since so
many souls got added on. As Paul put it, many of the original
Israel were "blinded." But it paid off well.
Christians usually read Isaiah 53 as referring to Jesus while
Jesus read it as referring to Israel. I think it's both.
The uniqueness of the original Israel is also shown here:
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the
throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man
could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four
thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[/quote]
Thank you for the scriptures and the explanation of where you
are on this. To me it seems that your position/belief would be
making God a respecter of persons, which I do not believe Him to
be. It would boil down to a OSAS belief only with regard to the
144,000 natural children of Jacob.
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive
that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:34
"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes,
shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is
given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have
committed much, of him they will ask the more. Luke 12:48
#Post#: 1659--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Kerry Date: June 2, 2025, 7:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Amadeus link=topic=36.msg1642#msg1642
date=1748788660]
Thank you for the scriptures and the explanation of where you
are on this. To me it seems that your position/belief would be
making God a respecter of persons, which I do not believe Him to
be. It would boil down to a OSAS belief only with regard to the
144,000 natural children of Jacob.
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive
that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:34
"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes,
shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is
given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have
committed much, of him they will ask the more. Luke 12:48
[/quote]No, I absolutely believe God is no respecter of persons.
Nor do I believe all the "natural children" of Israel are part
of the true Israel.
Most people are hard pressed to explain how God knew two sons
representing two nations were about to be born to Rebekah and
how they would turn out. Ever wonder why Esau and Cain were
older but turned out poorly? Why have the bad sons born first?
Why let them start off with the birthright?
Why did God love Isaac but hate Esau? The word "hate" should
probably be translated as "avoided" in the passage.
Malachi 1:2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say,
Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith
the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage
waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Maybe a new thread would be in order? I can deal with it either
way since "forgiveness" is still involved.
We find the book of Job starting off by saying he was perfect.
So why was Satan given power over him? And when Job repented,
what did he repent of? If Job represents Israel, why was he
told to sacrifice then for his three Gentile friends?
#Post#: 1682--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Amadeus Date: June 3, 2025, 7:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=36.msg1659#msg1659
date=1748865696]
No, I absolutely believe God is no respecter of persons. Nor do
I believe all the "natural children" of Israel are part of the
true Israel.
Most people are hard pressed to explain how God knew two sons
representing two nations were about to be born to Rebekah and
how they would turn out. Ever wonder why Esau and Cain were
older but turned out poorly? Why have the bad sons born first?
Why let them start off with the birthright?
Why did God love Isaac but hate Esau? The word "hate" should
probably be translated as "avoided" in the passage.
Malachi 1:2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say,
Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith
the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage
waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Maybe a new thread would be in order? I can deal with it either
way since "forgiveness" is still involved.
We find the book of Job starting off by saying he was perfect.
So why was Satan given power over him? And when Job repented,
what did he repent of? If Job represents Israel, why was he
told to sacrifice then for his three Gentile friends?
[/quote]
For each of your questions and mine, God has answers, but the
answers for you may not work for me and vice versa. God has
lessons, I believe for each of us in accord with what we are and
where we are at the moment. I believe there have been a lot of
studies done with regard to hating Esau, but probably not so
much about the older children turning out poorly. I had thoughts
myself about the perfection of Job, but not lately. I have
considered him as perfect early with what he had in the way of
gifts and experiences. He then went through trials allowing him
the opportunity to grow some more.
#Post#: 1684--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Mike Waters Date: June 4, 2025, 1:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Amadeus link=topic=36.msg1682#msg1682
date=1748996457]
For each of your questions and mine, God has answers, but the
answers for you may not work for me and vice versa. God has
lessons, I believe for each of us in accord with what we are and
where we are at the moment.
[/quote]
And that is precisely what I regard as being the 'Real Word of
God' for this dispensation of words 'Written on fleshy tablets
of man's heart'; which was particularly compounded at the moment
of Christ's Glorification, when the work of the Spirit of God
took on an especial significance.
#Post#: 1685--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Mike Waters Date: June 4, 2025, 2:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Amadeus link=topic=36.msg1583#msg1583
date=1748461864]
Has the world, that is the people in the world, ever been ready
to grow more like God?
What is the "Gospel in full"?
What is the Word of God? When the NT had not been written or
compiled or translated into a languages we could understand, did
God communicate with men? Were men listening to or asking
anything of God?
As a man, Jesus was growing? Lu 2:52 And Jesus increased in
wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
As men have some of us been growing? Are we closer to being like
God than we were before? Are we growing only toward what men
once were or is it toward something higher than men have ever
been?
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will
make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house
of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their
fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them
out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although
I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with
the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will
put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
[/quote]
And did not the 'Day' to which Jeremiah referred, begin with the
30 odd year incarnate 'Day of Christ'?
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