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#Post#: 1513--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Mike Waters Date: May 26, 2025, 3:19 pm
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So, You made it Ivor despite your lack of digital tools!!
And very happy I am ... especially with your old trademark
wisdom.
Bless you Bro (and Yvonne)
#Post#: 1515--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Amadeus Date: May 26, 2025, 3:54 pm
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[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=36.msg1510#msg1510
date=1748288354]
Amadeus (John) Brilliant to fellowship together again.
I pray that God will fortify you, my very dear old forum friend.
Mike ... (Hugs)
[/quote]Even so my dear friend and brother in Christ.
#Post#: 1516--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Kerry Date: May 26, 2025, 6:26 pm
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[quote author=Helen link=topic=36.msg1462#msg1462
date=1748028020]
You may disagree with me here , but I ( as you may remember )
see a difference between pre cross and post cross.
In my book , post cross the only transgression is against Love .
“ This is the work of God , that ye believe on Him who He sent
“ -
“ God so loved the world that He sent …’
Jesus came to fill what our flesh is to weak to walk in ….but
we press on toward the high calling …
And thank God for His cleansing fire .
Obviously I could be totally wrong about it! :)
[/quote]
What changed post cross? My question is why did saints who had
died come out of their graves where they had been sleeping after
Jesus was resurrected?
I believe those saints died having forgiven other human beings
and after doing their best to be forgiven of their own missteps;
but that was on the purely human level. They still needed to be
reconciled with God.
Imagine that I killed a child with my car by accident; but
before he died, he told me he forgave me since he knew I didn't
mean to kill him. Perhaps too he would add he too hadn't been
as careful as he should have been. At this one-to-one level, I
would be okay with this child, but what about his parents? They
were grieving. I had harmed them too. I had injured someone
they loved.
I rather see God as similar to the parents. We cannot really
harm God Himself in the way we harm each other. The harm to God
is when we harm others He loves. How could we regret offending
God if we don't even understand the Divine Love and how we
offended? We could do it again and again if we didn't
understand how we offended. Thus I also believe the Holy Spirit
plays a role. The Spirit is there to protect us from offending
by breaking the Law of Love. According to John's Gospel, the
Spirit can teach us.
#Post#: 1518--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Mike Waters Date: May 26, 2025, 8:00 pm
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Good to see you here Kerry.
I, for one, am much appreciative of your profundity.
Much needed by those of us who often just 'skim along' on the
surface (relatively speaking).
Bless you Bro ... Mike
#Post#: 1526--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Kerry Date: May 27, 2025, 2:06 am
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[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=36.msg1518#msg1518
date=1748307620]
Good to see you here Kerry.
I, for one, am much appreciative of your profundity.
Much needed by those of us who often just 'skim along' on the
surface (relatively speaking).
Bless you Bro ... Mike
[/quote]Thanks for the kind words. Let me go on then about
Genesis. Why didn't God tell Adam and Eve he forgave them? Was
God angry with them for defying Him? I don't think so.
Notice that neither Adam nor Eve express regret. Both are caught
up in the shame and blame game. Eve blamed the serpent and Adam
blamed her. God gave them free will, so we can't expect God to
take back His gift and say He had made a mistake by giving them
free will. As long then as they had free will and didn't repent,
God couldn't tell them they were forgiven.
So what mistakes had they made? Many people say Eve started it;
but I say Adam was too slow to obey the commandment to cleave to
her. Note that Eve wasn't told to cleave to him but he was told
to cleave to her. He was slow to do that, and she then was open
to being beguiled or seduced by the voice of the serpent. She
lacked the spiritual covered Adam was to provide. As an aside,
let me say my life experiences tell me it's easier for a woman
to love any man who really loves her than the other way around.
A woman may love a man, but he still can stray.
Had Adam obeyed and cleaved to Eve, the two would have become
one. Why, we must ask, did God first divide the one into two
and then tell them to become one again? In one way, it doesn't
make sense; but in another way, it does. We are used to
thinking of God as male; but Genesis is clear that's a matter of
convenience when using human language. They were created and
made male and female in the image and likeness of God -- and
then divided. Find it hard to believe? Elohim is the feminine
Eloh- with a plural masculine -im ending.
Love is not possible when there is only one. Thus God wanted
beings like Himself that He could love; and they needed to start
off small, learning how to love at a lower level. If they
learned that, they would understand much more about how to Love
God.
What was that "forbidden" tree doing there anyway? We cannot
possibly believe God put it there to tempt them to sin. Is it
not written that God does not tempt people to sin? Thus the
tree served a good purpose, so I believe; and the idea I finally
accepted was that God did want them to become like Him, knowing
good and evil but not by eating solely of it.
Let me divert a little now to the subject of salt, a symbol of
the holy. It is made of sodium and chlorine, both of which can
kill you if taken separately. Yet we need salt (to some extent)
in our diet for our bodies to work right. Compare now to the
two trees at the center of Eden. Some say the two trees were
intertwined -- meant to be one, just as Adam and Eve were.
After Adam and Eve became one, he was to pluck the fruit of one
tree and she the other, and they were to eat of both at the same
time. It would have been safe for them to become like gods
then; and that is what God wanted.
People may ponder why they didn't eat of the Tree of Life first,
becoming immortal. I don't have a satisfactory answer to that;
but I would be horrified if I found out I was in a wretched
fallen state and immortal and incapable of changing for the
better. Perhaps that's the misery of those spiritual beings we
call demons?
Did Adam and Eve "die" the same day they ate the forbidden
fruit? I answer yes. They had become spiritually dead. The
Light of God which had been their garments left them. They
became naked. Had they repented immediately instead of falling
into blame and shame, perhaps God would have resurrected them
then and there; and their spiritual bodies would have been alive
again. As it was, God mercifully put them into animal bodies.
Note that most translations say God gave them "coats of skins"
as if God killed animals. The Hebrew doesn't say that. It says
"skin" -- singular. God created and made Adam and Eve in His own
imagine and likeness, and that tells me they weren't originally
trapped in physical bodies.
#Post#: 1531--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Ivor Date: May 27, 2025, 8:23 am
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Sin leads to death so a way to resolve it was needed. Satan
raised the question do we serve God willingly or for want, is it
really so questioned god's honesty in front of all the angels.
There wasn't an easy way to return paradise and encapsulate all
future questions but by sending Christ the redeemer.
#Post#: 1532--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Mike Waters Date: May 27, 2025, 8:35 am
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IOW by partaking of the antidotal 'Tree of life', (was it
witheld until Christ?)
It's very complex and part of the "Mystery of Godliness".
However trust and obey for there's no other way
Coupled with:-
I am not skilled to understand
What God has willed, what God has planned
I only know, at God's right hand
Stands one who is my Saviour.
#Post#: 1533--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Kerry Date: May 27, 2025, 9:37 am
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[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=36.msg1532#msg1532
date=1748352912]
IOW by partaking of the antidotal 'Tree of life', (was it
witheld until Christ?)
[/quote]
I can think of three others who "attained" while in physical
bodies on this earth; but the world was not ready yet to receive
the Gospel in full. Enoch, Moses, and Elijah all partook of the
Tree of Life, I would say. Why were they here if the world was
not ready yet? To prepare the world in part, and to intercede
also, and to pass down their annointing as Elijah did to Elisha.
Yet the Cross should be seen as a physical symbol of the
spiritual Tree of Life.
Also of interest is how Eve was drawn from the side of Adam --
again our Bibles tend to mistranslate that saying she was made
from one of Adam's ribs -- but it's from the side. Compare
that now to the blood which came from the side of Jesus at the
Crucifixion. Surely this represents the Spiritual Blood of
Christ -- and the Bride of Christ was formed from it.
#Post#: 1534--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Kerry Date: May 27, 2025, 9:38 am
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Even the serpent will eventually get its place back. (I do not
talk about physical snakes here.) The serpent did not
originally wiggle along on the earth. It also fell. I say it
lost its wings. A clue this passage should not be taken too
literally in physical terms is that serpent don't "eat dust."
Ah, but the fallen serpent does.
Genesis 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because
thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above
every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust
shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Several cultures know about the winged serpent; and Malachi
spoke of it too although indirectly.
Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of
righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go
forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
We have all seen the caduceus in physicians' offices; but we
seldom relate it to Genesis. It was something I'd say the Greek
did get right. There are, however, two serpents in it, both
going around the wooden staff (symbol of the Tree of Life), and
the Sun Malachi mentioned is at the top. Most put the wings on
the staff and not on the serpents.
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Caduceus.svg/250px-Caduceus.svg.png
#Post#: 1535--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forgiveness
By: Helen Date: May 27, 2025, 9:56 am
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[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=36.msg1532#msg1532
date=1748352912]
IOW by partaking of the antidotal 'Tree of life', (was it
witheld until Christ?)
It's very complex and part of the "Mystery of Godliness".
However trust and obey for there's no other way
Coupled with:-
I am not skilled to understand
What God has willed, what God has planned
I only know, at God's right hand
Stands one who is my Saviour.
[/quote]
Haha…we have so many great subjects mentioned in this one thread
. I am thinking this needs a thread of its own.
I don’t believe that any of us have yet eaten of the tree of
life , as we are still bone and blood.
We have drunk of the living water , and have ‘ tasted and seen
that indeed He is good’ …yet …
I believe as Rev shows , The Tree of Life is in the Heavenly
City , yet to come.
I could be wrong
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