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#Post#: 2511--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul
By: Mike Waters Date: October 20, 2025, 3:31 pm
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After being drawn to Paul's letters to Timothy I am beginning,
after almost 80 years of Christian Faith, to feel uncomfortable
with Paul's tone of self adulation, and self pride.
And suddenly I now seem to feel the same towards so much of my
indoctrination that has been based on Paul's similarly presented
theology.
I don't know how I am going to cope with that.
Take Paul out of the Bible and there ain't much left.
But I now remember there being a past member who did just that!!
#Post#: 2512--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul
By: Mike Waters Date: October 20, 2025, 4:03 pm
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So, I did a Wikipedia and here's what I found.
Throughout history, various individuals and groups have
disregarded the writings and words of the Apostle Paul. Their
reasons vary, from theological and historical arguments to
specific moral objections.
Early Christian anti-Pauline groups
Ebionites: This early Jewish-Christian sect rejected Paul
entirely, seeing him as an apostate from the Mosaic Law. They
insisted that all Gentile Christians must follow Jewish customs
like circumcision. The Ebionites viewed Jesus as the Jewish
Messiah and a prophet, but not as divine, and argued that Paul
corrupted the original message.
Marcionites: Founded by Marcion of Sinope in the 2nd century CE,
this group is a notable historical example of selective
rejection of scripture. While not disregarding Paul entirely,
Marcionites rejected the entire Old Testament, believing the
wrathful creator God within it was a separate, lesser deity than
the benevolent God of Jesus. Marcion accepted a heavily edited
version of the Gospel of Luke and ten of Paul's epistles, which
he considered the only authentic Christian teachings.
Other Judaizers: Paul's own letters mention other
Jewish-Christian groups, sometimes called "Judaizers," who
opposed his teachings that Gentiles were saved by faith alone
and did not need to follow Jewish law.
Enlightenment-era critics
Thomas Jefferson: The third U.S. president famously created his
own version of the Gospels by literally cutting out all
references to miracles and supernatural events. Jefferson wrote
that Paul was the "great Coryphaeus, and first corrupter of the
doctrines of Jesus," alleging that Paul introduced superstitions
and falsehoods.
Leo Tolstoy: The Russian novelist was another prominent critic
who believed Paul distorted the teachings of Jesus. Tolstoy
argued that Paul introduced an emphasis on divine authority and
miracles that detracted from Jesus's original message of simple,
anarchic love.
Modern and contemporary critics
Secular and academic critics: Some modern scholars,
philosophers, and secular writers argue that Paul's theology
represents a shift or distortion of Jesus's original message,
claiming Paul's writings were influenced by Greek thought.
Anti-Pauline Christians: Today, small groups of Christians
reject some or all of Paul's letters, particularly those who
struggle with passages on women's roles, homosexuality, and the
interpretation of the law. Some prefer a "red-letter
Christianity" that focuses only on the recorded words of Jesus
in the Gospels, though many scholars would note the difficulty
in separating Jesus's message from its early interpretation by
figures like Paul.
#Post#: 2513--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul
By: KerryD Date: October 20, 2025, 4:26 pm
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[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=34.msg2511#msg2511
date=1760992319]
After being drawn to Paul's letters to Timothy I am beginning,
after almost 80 years of Christian Faith, to feel uncomfortable
with Paul's tone of self adulation, and self pride.
And suddenly I now seem to feel the same towards so much of my
indoctrination that has been based on Paul's similarly presented
theology.
I don't know how I am going to cope with that.
Take Paul out of the Bible and there ain't much left.
But I now remember there being a past member who did just that!!
[/quote]
Paul does seem to focus on himself and his importance a lot. I
think perhaps that was because he was a small and frail man, so
he tried to compensate as many men like him do by bragging.
He seems to think it important to tell people he didn't bother
getting the approval from the Apostles.
Galatians 3:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to
see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's
brother.
20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I
lie not.
What does Acts say? First off, it says after "many days," not
three years. Then there's this:
Acts 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to
join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him,
and believed not that he was a disciple.
27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and
declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that
he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus
in the name of Jesus.
28 And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem.
#Post#: 2514--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul
By: Rita Date: October 21, 2025, 2:08 am
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Sorry but I have never felt that Paul should be disregarded from
scripture. His testimony on the Damascus road , and the
transformation afterwards and his whole journey show the Lord at
work through him.
Of course he had to prove himself after such a drastic
turnaround, and he had way further to fall from where he was to
where he was brought to faith and how that turned his whole
world upside down. Trying to prove yourself is not the same as
placing yourself above everyone else and bragging.
Mike be careful that you don’t chuck the baby out with the bath
water - All of us come to faith with personalities, cultural
backgrounds and attitudes, Paul was as much a work in progress
as the rest of us. He actually states that the thorn in his side
was to stop him from being arrogant , it humbled him.
His life as a Pharisee would have developed certain attitudes
with regards to authority, his conversion and experiences of
being imprisoned over the years would have changed him, like
Joseph ( who was very arrogant).
#Post#: 2515--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul
By: Rita Date: October 21, 2025, 2:12 am
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Why is the heading of this thread coming up as ‘ Trump ‘ on my
subject line , and ‘ Paul’ yours and Kerry’s posts !!
#Post#: 2516--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul
By: Mike Waters Date: October 21, 2025, 2:30 am
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Well said Rita.
Hopefully I would have got there myself, given time to do a more
complete study of Paul.
#Post#: 2517--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul
By: Rita Date: October 21, 2025, 2:44 am
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Mike, there are many things about Paul’s theology that goes over
my head a bit and I have differing thoughts on his attitudes to
women in church ( but I do believe that cultural norms dictated
in many aspects of)
I tried to do a Bible course on Paul , from the London Bible
College , and just couldn’t get into it without it making my
head hurt !
Dan and I are working through acts at the moment , and are just
at the point of Paul’s conversion. He is an interesting
character, but I can only imagine all that his encounter with
Jesus brought his way- His whole way of life changed. Then
dealing with blindness and having to be suddenly led by someone
else, he was a proud Pharisee on what he thought was a Godly
mission to destroy those who were conveying a different truth.
In the matter of days everything he had stood for was now
flipped , and the reality that he was not serving God as he
thought.
Maybe in our modern day it would be like an isis leader meeting
Jesus and suddenly seeing he was so very wrong in what he was
doing
#Post#: 2518--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul
By: Rita Date: October 21, 2025, 3:19 am
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Mike , what aspects of his theology is making you feel uneasy ?
As I said some theology goes over my head, but perhaps we can
discuss certain passages and see where it leads us
#Post#: 2519--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul
By: Rita Date: October 21, 2025, 3:23 am
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Kerry, going to look at the passages you shared this morning x
#Post#: 2520--------------------------------------------------
Re: Paul
By: KerryD Date: October 21, 2025, 3:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Rita link=topic=34.msg2517#msg2517
date=1761032687]
Mike, there are many things about Paul’s theology that goes over
my head a bit and I have differing thoughts on his attitudes to
women in church ( but I do believe that cultural norms dictated
in many aspects of)
I tried to do a Bible course on Paul , from the London Bible
College , and just couldn’t get into it without it making my
head hurt !
Dan and I are working through acts at the moment , and are just
at the point of Paul’s conversion. He is an interesting
character, but I can only imagine all that his encounter with
Jesus brought his way- His whole way of life changed. Then
dealing with blindness and having to be suddenly led by someone
else, he was a proud Pharisee on what he thought was a Godly
mission to destroy those who were conveying a different truth.
In the matter of days everything he had stood for was now
flipped , and the reality that he was not serving God as he
thought.
Maybe in our modern day it would be like an isis leader meeting
Jesus and suddenly seeing he was so very wrong in what he was
doing
[/quote]So you're in Acts 9? We read:
Acts 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless,
hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Later in a speech, Paul says:
Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and
were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to
me.
My explanation, for what it's worth, is that someone added that
speech later. I doubt someone was writing down what Paul said.
I think it got added by a scribe who imagined what Paul might
have said. I think maybe other scribes also added other things
to the books Paul wrote.
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