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#Post#: 18728--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colonialism as viewed by Westerners
DIR By: antihellenistic
Date: April 4, 2023, 4:10 am
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How "non-white" westerners see colonialism
Westerners's view of Colonialism (Rightist)
--- Quote ---
> Anonymous - I’ll have to go anonymous for fear of being
labelled a sell-out:) I can not speak for all countries, because
every country had a different colonial experience. As for my
country, which is Morocco, I would have to say that colonialism
was an entirely good thing. Yes, the French came as brutal
conquerors and oppressors, I’m not denying that, but the
Moroccan authorities were themselves brutal and oppressive, so
it was just another authority doing what our own leaders had
done for centuries. The Moroccan rulers who lost the country to
the French were corrupt, sectarian thugs. The only difference
was that your oppressor suddenly had another religion than
yourself. ‘
>
> The French invested quite a lot in Moroccan infrastructure,
building roads, railroads, docks and pumping out entire cities.
Casablanca is France’s gift to Morocco. We also have France to
thank for Morocco’s centralized, effective bureaucracy. Without
the French, Morocco would still be a Medieval feudal state.
>
> I can’t speak for our neighbors, but Algeria and Tunisia are
both countries that are much better off than Morocco, in terms
of development. The French did a lot to build up those countries
as well. Tunisia in particular is a French-built success story.
Because of France (and the Tunisians) it is the most developed
country in Africa.
>
> Other countries have entirely different experiences, but North
Africa really benefited from colonialism.
--- End Quote ---
Anti-westerners view of colonialism (1) (Leftist)
--- Quote ---
> [b]Khalid Elhassan- Good for the colonists, bad for the
colonized,[/b] with varying degrees of just how bad. E.g.; I
doubt there was any “good” done by Belgian colonizers that could
come anywhere close to balancing the horrors they visited upon
the Congo, where the natives were forced to work on plantations
as de facto slave labor,
>
> ...
>
> with widespread mutilation and murder as penalties for refusal
to joyfully slave away for the colonial authorities.
> ...
>
> About 10 million Africans died in the Belgian Congo as a
result of colonialism, with millions more mutilated and
tortured.
>
> Nor would the Hereros or Namas of German South-West Africa,
subjected by their German colonial masters to the now nearly
forgotten Herero and Namaqua genocide , have thought the
benefits of colonialism outweighed the costs.
>
> Except in the rarest of instances, enclaves that were created
from scratch by the colonialists such as Singapore or Hong Kong,
I don’t think any benefits of colonialism outweighed the costs
of colonization.
>
> Also, I think it’s a fallacy to simply assume that colonial
“benefits” such as infrastructure and education systems and what
have you, could only have spread to the colonized lands via
colonization. E.g.; Turkey and Iran were not colonized, but
still managed to get such benefits and they’re not doing so bad
by the standards of their neighborhood. Indeed, they’re doing
better than many other countries in the region that had been
colonized.
>
> Japan and China (except for tiny enclaves) weren’t colonized,
while India and Pakistan were. I don’t think India or Pakistan
are faring much better than China, let alone Japan.
>
> It is possible for countries to receive and enjoy the supposed
benefits of colonialism without having been colonized.
--- End Quote ---
False-Leftist view of Colonialism (1) (Centrist or Moderate)
--- Quote ---
> Jakub Handlíř- I think that the views on colonialism are
often very extreme
>
> Your opinion is extreme in a way that you forget the
suffering, exploitation and injustices that the colonial powers
often brought on their colonies.
>
> The other extreme stance is that colonialism was a pure evil
that’s responsible for everything that’s wrong with this world.
This stance is often represented by many of the citizens and
also rulers of the former colonies who find it more easy to
blame the evil Western colonial powers than admit their own
mistakes and faults.
>
> This stance is also connected to the myth of “noble savage”
which is idealisation of the pre-colonial life of the native
people while ignoring all negative aspects of that life.
>
> My own opinion is that the colonial powers did what countries
were doing for the entire history; expanding their territory and
bending the weak countries to their will.
>
> Sure, some colonial powers brought better technology, medicine
etc. to their colonies but it wasn’t done from the goodness of
their hearts but because of an feeling of superiority that it’s
the colonial power’s moral burden to civilize the natives
whether they want to or not.
>
> But this feeling isn’t unique. All civilizations thought that
they were superior to other. The Western powers just had such a
massive technological advantage that it allowed them to expand
their colonial empires further than anyone has ever done before.
>
> But the colonial past isn’t an excuse for the current state of
affairs. Especially if the population of the former colonies
often doesn’t know European history and think that all European
countries had colonies. It’s quite the opposite in fact.
>
> ...
>
> My entire point is that colonialism is a complicated issue
that can’t by extreme stances. Nothing in the world is purely
white or purely black. Everything is in the various shades of
grey. Colonialism included.
--- End Quote ---
False-Leftist view of Colonialism (2) (Centrist or Moderate)
--- Quote ---
> Mithun Karmakar- Ruined? can’t say for sure.
>
> destroyed intrinsic cultures? yes.
>
> killed millions in the process? yes yes.
>
> Drained of their resources? Yes yes yes.
>
> In Australia they reduced indegeneous population by 90% ..
over 7million dead
>
> In America Natives were reduces by 95%.. Over 130 millions
dead.
>
> In Africa, over 9 million dead and countless taken as slaves.
>
> …just a few examples. With them gone their cultures and
values.
>
> Where would the world be if Europeans were not a mass
murdering colonizing burglars? Well, a lot of people today would
probably wont be dieing of hunger and having to live in a
crippled economy.
>
> Technology would have spread way better due to having more
ability to buy, advancement of human values would have advanced
much better if they didnt have to recover from 100s of years of
colonization backlog, Countries in the world would have better
cooperation and collaboration if colonizing conflicts didnt have
to give birth to a hundred other problems.
>
> Did it ruin though? probably!
--- End Quote ---
Anti-westerners view of colonialism (2) (Leftist)
--- Quote ---
> Harshhh Agarwal. - When I went to UK last year, I looked the
city and beautiful building, beautiful street great
infrastructure and many great things.When I saw these giant
cities I also think about other side of it ,i think of famine of
bengal our ancestor struggle to british,jute worker in
india,sending jute to britisher.I think of human who was slaved
in Africa brought from other cities of Africa,all profits are
sponged in city like london.Within 200 year britisher stoled 45
trillion dollar,we never got paid for that in compensation.When
britisher left India ,our literacy rate was 13 percent,so much
of so called civilization,our land were destroyed,people were
killed,coil was foisted on India.Then they left us in such
condition where we can never think how to reorganise us.When I
listen people like boris johnson,joe biden,immanuel macron
lecturing us on human right.How condoscending u are ,you
condoscended to us for 400 years.They are condoscending today
too bcz these have colonial mentality and for them colonoialism
in past was a so called civilization.These people want to lecure
us that we are responsible for our colonization bcz they will
never accept that they are the people who are to be blame.They
want to make us believe that we all were together in this
colonization .They love lecturing us bcz they have a colonial
mentality.They lend us money and every time say that we are
lending u ,it was ours money.
>
> There are climate justice movement in which they try to tell
us that we have a future,what future u are talking about
children in africa,asia,latina america dont have a present.These
children are not worried about future because they dont have
present.Its a western illogical bourgeois slogan to justify
everything.2 billion people dont have food to eat and they are
lecturing us on future and reduce your consumption.Have they
ever thought how does it sound to a child who havent eat from
few days.These people want to tell u what are their issue is but
are they willing to listen?
>
> They want to justify every thing.
>
> Every monument of civilization is monument of barbarism.
--- End Quote ---
False-Leftist view of Colonialism (3) (Centrist or Moderate)
--- Quote ---
> Andrés Parzanese - Edit: The question’s details before the
merge contained something along the lines of: “It brought
technology to primitive societies. I think people who think it’s
bad need a history lesson.”
>
> Yeah maybe it was a good thing, after all.
>
> But I think you should get off your cloud because you are the
one who needs a history lesson.
>
> Are you aware that some of those “Primitive societies” were
actually culturally rich? And that some of them, like the
Aztecs, had fortunes that were sacked and taken back to Europe?
>
> Did you know that whole empires and civilizations were
destroyed because of Colonialism?
>
> When you are the bully things seem great, but I think that
exterminating people is also pretty primitive.
>
> Things aren’t black or white, Colonialism might have the good
effect you, in your condescending manner mention but it also
brought instability and death to many regions.
>
> Ultimately I think things could have been done better, but
sadly things were different back then.
--- End Quote ---
Source :
HTML https://www.quora.com/On-the-whole-was-colonialism-a-good-or-bad-thing
Homeworks, match their views to Hitler's view. Which views are
same like Hitler's view on colonialism?
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/5e1670c61b0f2f430e3300eb6352dc5a/4f15adcd00022294-a8/s1280x1920/855f5d7658133a87b54d7ae6a4708ef219f5cfc4.jpg
#Post#: 18729--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colonialism as viewed by Westerners
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: April 4, 2023, 5:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> I think it’s a fallacy to simply assume that colonial
“benefits” such as infrastructure and education systems and what
have you, could only have spread to the colonized lands via
colonization. E.g.; Turkey and Iran were not colonized, but
still managed to get such benefits
--- End Quote ---
The above attitude is False Leftist. True Leftists should not
want Western infrastructure/education/etc. at all, even if
obtained without colonization.
--- Quote ---
> When I went to UK last year, I looked the city and beautiful
building, beautiful street great infrastructure and many great
things.
--- End Quote ---
This is also False Leftist. True Leftists should see ugliness in
Western buildings/infrastructure/etc..
Hitler is the only True Leftist in your post.
#Post#: 18887--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colonialism as viewed by Westerners
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: April 15, 2023, 6:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
From our enemies:
HTML https://www.amren.com/features/2023/04/reforging-america-part-i/
--- Quote ---
> Western history shows a remarkable post-Renaissance arc. In
the 18th Century, new forms of thought and government conceived
in the salons of Paris and the meetinghouses of colonial America
challenged ideas about the relationship between man and
government. This unleashed an unparalleled growth in
productivity, which fueled a new round of European colonization
around the world.
>
> Today, the remarkable innovation and creativity that built the
great expansive European empires — British, Dutch, French,
Russian, Spanish, Portuguese, and German — have come under
attack.
> ...
> Rather than celebrating the unmatched global prosperity driven
by white ingenuity, we find ourselves now asked to apologize for
it.
>
> The new dogmas have supplanted the traditional figure of the
aged white man made wise by a lifetime of experience with that
of the wizened black woman
> ...
> Today, Indian activists and their white fellow travelers are
demanding what they call “land acknowledgments” — public
admissions that a given parcel of land was stolen. If one were
to suggest to our white ancestors who conquered North America
the idea of such land acknowledgements, their response would be
total befuddlement. We conquered the land; it is ours. Now,
however, we seem intent on giving it away.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 18895--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colonialism as viewed by Westerners
DIR By: antihellenistic
Date: April 15, 2023, 11:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
>
> From our enemies:
>
>
HTML https://www.amren.com/features/2023/04/reforging-america-part-i/
>
> [quote]Western history shows a remarkable post-Renaissance
arc. In the 18th Century, new forms of thought and government
conceived in the salons of Paris and the meetinghouses of
colonial America challenged ideas about the relationship between
man and government. This unleashed an unparalleled growth in
productivity, which fueled a new round of European colonization
around the world.
>
> Today, the remarkable innovation and creativity that built the
great expansive European empires — British, Dutch, French,
Russian, Spanish, Portuguese, and German — have come under
attack.
> ...
> Rather than celebrating the unmatched global prosperity driven
by white ingenuity, we find ourselves now asked to apologize for
it.
>
> The new dogmas have supplanted the traditional figure of the
aged white man made wise by a lifetime of experience with that
of the wizened black woman
> ...
> Today, Indian activists and their white fellow travelers are
demanding what they call “land acknowledgments” — public
admissions that a given parcel of land was stolen. If one were
to suggest to our white ancestors who conquered North America
the idea of such land acknowledgements, their response would be
total befuddlement. We conquered the land; it is ours. Now,
however, we seem intent on giving it away.
--- End Quote ---
[/quote]
Compare White Nationalism with Authentic [b]Communism. We will
see similarity[/b]
Recall
--- Quote ---
> Slavery, at its time, represented a great leap beyond
barbarism. Slavery was a necessary stage in the development of
the productive forces, culture and society. As explained by
Hegel: "It is not from slavery, but through slavery that humans
become free". (Hegel, Philosophy of History)
>
> Likewise capitalism is also a necessary and progressive stage
in society. However, like slavery, primitive communism and
feudalism (see section 2), capitalism has long ceased to
represent a necessary and progressive social system. It is
already rickety because of the deep contradictions that lie
within it, and will in time be overthrown by the rise of
socialism, which is represented by the modern proletariat.
Private ownership of the means of production and the
nation-state, which are the basic features of capitalist
society, which originally marked a step forward, now only
hinders the development of the productive forces and threatens
all the progress that has been made after centuries of human
development.
>
> ...
>
> An abundant economy will be made possible by the application
of socialist planning to industry, science and engineering,
which has been established by capitalism, on a global scale
--- End Quote ---
Source :
HTML https://www.marxist.com/apa-itu-marxisme-bagian-pertama-materialisme-dialektis.htm
--- Quote ---
> "Without slavery, North America, the most progressive of
countries, would be transformed into a patriarchal country. Wipe
out North America from the map of the world and you will have
anarchy— the complete decay of modern commerce and civilization.
Abolish slavery and you will have wiped America off the map of
nations.10- Karl Heinrich Marx
>
> What Marx was saying in effect was that Negro slaves were
needed to produce raw cotton; cotton was the basic raw material
of modern capitalist industry; therefore, Negro slavery was
necessary to the survival of America and to the survival of
modern civilization.
--- End Quote ---
Source : Karl Marx Racist by Nathaniel Weyl, page 75
The point is, White Nationalism, similarly to Communism, see
western colonialism and its so-called progress as a good thing
regardless its oppression and it's evilness to the colonized
They will embrace and enforce authentic Marxist-Socialism
someday if they win
Compare White Nationalism with Winston Churchill, leader of the
Liberal-Capitalist British Empire on viewing "European Empires"
and westernization
--- Quote ---
> In 1937, he told the Palestine Royal Commission: "I do not
admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red
Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not
admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact
that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise
race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."
>
> Churchill certainly believed in racial hierarchies and
eugenics, says John Charmley, author of Churchill: The End of
Glory. In Churchill's view, white protestant Christians were at
the top, above white Catholics, while Indians were higher than
Africans, he adds. "Churchill saw himself and Britain as being
the winners in a social Darwinian hierarchy."
--- End Quote ---
Source :
HTML https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29701767
Recall on Hitler's view on westernization. Never forget
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/5e1670c61b0f2f430e3300eb6352dc5a/4f15adcd00022294-a8/s1280x1920/855f5d7658133a87b54d7ae6a4708ef219f5cfc4.jpg
#Post#: 18990--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colonialism as viewed by Westerners
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: April 22, 2023, 5:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYYST7750S4
See also:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-sustainable-evil/msg10137/?topicseen#msg10137
The salmon also "could have families".
#Post#: 18994--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colonialism as viewed by Westerners
DIR By: antihellenistic
Date: April 22, 2023, 7:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
>
>
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYYST7750S4
>
> See also:
>
>
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-sustainable-evil/msg10137/?topicseen#msg10137
>
> The salmon also "could have families".
>
--- End Quote ---
Dennis Prager behaves like Karl Marx who still attempting to
shows positive opinions on "black" slavery by the "whites"
#Post#: 19198--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colonialism as viewed by Westerners
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: May 4, 2023, 5:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Duchesne again:
HTML https://twitter.com/dr_duchesne/status/1654084910586404867
--- Quote ---
> British civilized nonwhite world, gave India a proper language
and legal system, abolished their savage custom of widow
burning, built ports, railways, and taught them manners --- and
Africans would have remained enslaved cannibals without UK
civilizing mission.
--- End Quote ---
See also:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/colonialism-as-viewed-by-westerners/msg4834/#msg4834
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/legal-decolonization/msg18816/?topicseen#msg18816
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/legal-decolonization/msg17454/?topicseen#msg17454
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/legal-decolonization/msg17219/?topicseen#msg17219
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/social-decolonization/msg13858/?topicseen#msg13858
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/indian-attitudes/msg17668/?topicseen#msg17668
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/indian-attitudes/msg17669/?topicseen#msg17669
#Post#: 19535--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colonialism as viewed by Westerners
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: May 14, 2023, 6:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Worthless arguments such as the following, not so long ago found
only on far-right blogs, are now found in mainstream journalism:
HTML https://www.yahoo.com/news/no-moral-case-britain-paying-060000493.html
--- Quote ---
> There is no moral case for Britain paying slavery reparations
--- End Quote ---
I say that reparations are not the best thing for victim
bloodlines to be demanding (instead, they should demand that all
colonizer bloodlines be eliminated), but I definitely agree that
Britain needs to be held accountable for its past actions.
--- Quote ---
> the call for Britain to pay reparations for slavery is absurd.
It is true that some Britons, including, it seems, at least one
of the King’s distant ancestors, were involved in trading and
owning African slaves from about 1650 to the early 1800s.
> ...
> But the context was this. Slavery was a universal institution,
practised on every continent by people of every skin colour.
--- End Quote ---
Except for the inconvenient facts that:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Britain
--- Quote ---
> a law of Ine of Wessex stated that anyone selling his own
countryman, whether bond or free, across the sea, was to pay his
own weregild in penalty, even when the man sold was guilty of a
crime.[20]
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> In 1102, the Church Council of London convened by Anselm
issued a decree: "Let no one dare hereafter to engage in the
infamous business, prevalent in England, of selling men like
animals."[27]
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> Some historians, like John Gillingham, have asserted that by
about 1200, the institution of slavery was largely non-existent
in the British Isles.[25]
--- End Quote ---
So why did Britain, which centuries prior to the colonial era
had already decided that slavery was bad (back when the enslaved
were "white"), suddenly practice it from the beginning of the
colonial era (when the enslaved were "non-white")? Being
subjected to this double-standard is what reparations are being
demanded for.
--- Quote ---
> Africans were capturing and selling other Africans to Romans
and Arabs centuries before Europeans entered the market in the
mid-1400s.
--- End Quote ---
Yes, but without the double-standard. Therefore they can argue
that slavery was a institution they regarded as acceptable no
matter who was being enslaved, whereas Britain (and the other
Western colonial powers with similar "white"/"non-white"
double-standards) cannot. It is similar to how a state in which
meat-eating is legal so long as it is not human meat being eaten
is far more systematically unjust than another state in which
eating human meat is legal along with other meat-eating.
--- Quote ---
> If some Britons profited from it, so did those Africans
involved in slave-trading.
--- End Quote ---
No one is saying Britain should not have purchased "non-white"
slaves. But, once purchased, Britain should have treated them
the same way they treated "white" slaves for whose release they
paid ransom to Barbary corsairs etc.. They did not. Being
subjected to this double-standard is what reparations are being
demanded for.
Finally, the double-standard continues:
--- Quote ---
> The idea of reparations can sometimes make good sense. No one
disputes that Germany’s post-1945 government should have
restored stolen property to its owners or compensated them for
its loss. In those circumstances, the identities of the Jewish
wronged and the Nazi wrongdoers, and the relationship between
original victims and surviving family members, were clear. And
the harm done was definite and quantifiable.
--- End Quote ---
::)
(But at least this paragraph proves that Jews are "white".)
#Post#: 19947--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colonialism as viewed by Westerners
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: May 27, 2023, 5:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Enemy conversation:
HTML https://twitter.com/makeEuropaSnow/status/1659786405265182720
--- Quote ---
> If it weren't for the White Race Western Civilization wouldn't
exist, anything great in the world wouldn't EXIST. We wouldn't
be living in a warm house with HEATING invented and built by
White Men!
--- End Quote ---
This part about heating is correct:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/decolonized-housing-(america-edition)/msg10221/#msg10221
which is why we need to kill Western civilization ASAP.
[img]
HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fg6BHicWAAQvMhF?format=jpg&name=900x900[/img]
Our enemies literally thinks the Western way of heating (diagram
on the right) is superior FFS.....
Here are some of their based responses:
--- Quote ---
> Truth! I like to say that we have Manifest Destiny in our
hearts. No one else has the desire to invent, conquer, build,
and improve our surroundings like those descended from White
Europeans.
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> we find valuable resources and utilize them whilst the Natives
just stare at us with a dumb look on their faces.
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> Edmund Gustav Albrecht Husserl (1859 – 1938) German
philosopher says:
>
> “Naturally the “Europeanization of all foreign parts of the
world” is the destiny of the earth. God made Europe in His own
image and now the rest of mankind will be made in the image of
Europe.”
--- End Quote ---
Husserl also looks like what we would expect:
HTML https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.4317518877.7475/st,small,507x507-pad,600x600,f8f8f8.jpg
#Post#: 19958--------------------------------------------------
Re: Colonialism as viewed by Westerners
DIR By: antihellenistic
Date: May 27, 2023, 8:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> God made Europe in His own image and now the rest of mankind
will be made in the image of Europe.”
--- End Quote ---
That word sounds like description of Yahweh in the Old
Testament. Therefore to defeat the West we must defeat Judaism,
Western Civilization is result of Judaic philosophical
worldview, therefore the West will not defeated if Western
Civilization not yet die
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