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#Post#: 11243--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: Zea_mays Date: February 14, 2022, 6:19 am
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That poster also reminds me of the National Socialist labor
recruitment posters targeted at "Slavic" people.
Polish-language poster, c. 1940-1941:
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Chod%C5%BAmy_na_roboty_rolne_do_Niemiec.jpg
[quote]Let's go to Germany for agricultural work! Report
immediately to your mayor.[/quote]
Russian-language poster:
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/92/Nazi_poster.jpg
[quote]I live with a German family and feel just fine. Come to
Germany to help with household chores.[/quote]
In other words, Hitler's views on the "Slavic people" were more
favorable than even Marxists, since Friedrich Engels doubted
they could be integrated into the nations of "revolutionary
peoples", and would instead have to be completely exterminated:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/national-socialism-is-revolutionary-not-reactionary/msg11178/#msg11178
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/national-socialism-is-revolutionary-not-reactionary/msg11179/#msg11179
----
Wochenspruch der NSDAP was a propaganda poster/wall newspaper
issued by the party from 1937-1944. The images below are
particularly useful in demonstrating the importance of Socialism
to National Socialists, since they're literally one-sentence
propaganda posters printed for mass distribution. Long speeches
and writings are one thing, but it is pretty difficult to argue
National Socialists were anti-Socialist when their own, most
basic, forms of propaganda called themselves Socialists. ;D
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wochenspruch_der_NSDAP
Note that the word Socialism is printed in a different color to
emphasize it:
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/8/83/20200629010253%21Wochenspruch_der_NSDAP_8_June_1941.jpg
[quote]True socialism, however, is the doctrine of the strictest
performance of duty.
-Wochenspruch der NSDAP ("Weekly Quotation of the National
Socialist Party"), June 8-14, 1941.[/quote]
[img width=867
height=1280]
HTML https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/images/ws/ws-27Aug1939.jpg[/img]
[quote]“There is no socialism that does not apply to one’s own
people. -Adolf Hitler.”
-Wochenspruch der NSDAP ("Weekly Quotation of the National
Socialist Party"), August 27-September 2, 1939.[/quote]
#Post#: 11244--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: Zea_mays Date: February 14, 2022, 6:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
At this point, I have posted nearly all of the information that
I've stumbled across during my preliminary search into the
Socialist attitudes of National Socialists.
I say this is a preliminary search, because I have basically
just dug a tiny bit deeper to double-check the quotations that
can be found in various articles and forum posts scattered
around the internet. Yes, the massive walls of quotes in this
thread are just scratching the surface.
I think we have abundantly proven our point with the information
contained here. As far as I am aware, this is the largest
collection of quotes that has ever been compiled on the internet
regarding the leftist Socialist attitudes of National
Socialists.
----
To summarize the sources:
• Hitler's public speeches, writings, and interviews.
• Hitler's private conversations:
◦ sourced from rightist anti-Hitlerists (Hermann
Rauschning (including where Hitler said he is literally going to
be the "Executor of Marxism")).
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/national-socialism-is-revolutionary-not-reactionary/msg10718/#msg10718
◦ sourced from leftist anti-Hitlerists (Albert Krebs,
Otto Strasser (including Hitler's debate with Strasser where he
told him Strasserist Socialism wasn't authentically Socialist
enough)).
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/national-socialism-is-revolutionary-not-reactionary/msg10620/#msg10620
◦ sourced from leftist Hitler loyalists (Otto Wagener,
Alfred Rosenberg, and Albert Speer (if you count him as
'loyal'/leftist)).
• Official party propaganda, particularly that which was
written/edited/approved by Joseph Goebbels. (Much of which was
clearly written for leftist audiences).
• Private diary entries of Joseph Goebbels's personal opinions.
(Where he literally said he is a Communist and other very
leftist things).
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/national-socialism-is-revolutionary-not-reactionary/msg10621/#msg10621
• Memoirs from Albert Speer, Alfred Rosenberg, Herman Goering,
and Otto Strasser indicating how Hitler favored Goebbels heavily
and was ideologically influenced by him.
• Information from Otto Strasser declaring Goebbels had
initially supported Walter Stennes's leftist coup in the SA, and
how Goebbels assured Ernst Roehm that Hitler would soon purge
the rightist elements of the party (and how Strasser believed
Hitler genuinely intended to do this, and how Strasser believed
Goebbels was genuinely leftist rather than a rightist
infiltrator).
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/national-socialism-is-revolutionary-not-reactionary/msg10915/#msg10915
• Basic biographical/historical information:
◦ from Wikipedia acknowledging that various other party
figures were leftists/Socialists (or at least within "the left
wing of the NSDAP"). Wikipedia isn't a perfect source on
history, but it is generally good at presenting the "mainstream
consensus narrative"--i.e. the historians being referenced on
those pages were likely willing to admit the leftist tendencies
of many members.
◦ from Hermann Rauschning and Otto Strasser revealing how
the three major opposition factions in the party (Walter
Stennes's SA faction, Ernst Roehm's SA faction, and the
Strasserist faction) were all leftists!!! (And how Hitler had
invited leftist Ernst Roehm to come back to Germany to lead the
SA after the Stennes coup was put down!!! And how Hitler made
constant concessions to the Strassers to keep them in the
party!!!)
• Information about the social welfare policies of National
Socialist Germany:
◦ sourced from documents used by Allied intelligence and
were later used at the Nuremberg Trials.
◦ sourced from National Socialist propaganda (which was
considered accurate enough to also be used by Allied
intelligence and Nuremberg Trial prosecutors).
◦ sourced from an essay by Léon Degrelle written in the
final years of his life, indicating the lasting importance of
these policies in his mind.
• Quotes from non-National-Socialists acknowledging the leftist
Socialist elements:
-From leftists:
◦ Willy Brandt, a member of a Communist party and later
the Chancellor of West Germany from 1969-1974.
◦ Bertrand Russell, who acknowledged in his "History of
Western Philosophy" that Hitler and Mussolini fell within the
branch of Romanticist leftism.
◦ Richard Crossman (British Labour Party politician who
had visited Germany in the 1930s).
◦ Konrad Heiden (a Jewish journalist from the 1930s; I
assume he was liberal/left-leaning).
-From Western-Civilization-admiring rightists:
◦ F. A. Hayek, Frederick Augustus Voigt.
◦ 21st-century propaganda articles by rightists of
various camps.
• Opinions from historians:
◦ George Watson's article "Hitler and the socialist
dream", which has many quotes, which I have confirmed and posted
separately from his article.
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/national-socialism-is-revolutionary-not-reactionary/msg11177/#msg11177
◦ Wolfgang Venohr, Hellmut Diwald, and Sebastian Haffner,
who explicitly acknowledged Hitler's attitudes were "socialist
or left". (And they also included the quote from Goebbels's
newspaper where he says, "According to the idea of the NSDAP, we
are the German left.")
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/national-socialism-is-revolutionary-not-reactionary/msg11181/#msg11181
◦ A. James Gregor (who wrote about Mussolini and
Fascism's development from Socialism and Marxism).
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/national-socialism-is-revolutionary-not-reactionary/msg10717/#msg10717
• Parallelism with Marxists/Communists:
◦ Frederick Engels's declaration that during the next
revolution/world war there needs to be "the disappearance from
the face of the earth...of entire reactionary peoples." George
Watson drew the obvious parallel between the revolutionary acts
Engels advocated for and what Hitler did.
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/national-socialism-is-revolutionary-not-reactionary/msg11178/#msg11178
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/national-socialism-is-revolutionary-not-reactionary/msg11179/#msg11179
◦ I've said before that things like Stalin's policy of
"Socialism in one country" is an indication that even Communism
in the early USSR moved towards nationalist-socialism and away
from orthodox Marxism (contrast it to the internationalism of
the Trotskyist faction that Stalin purged).
----
To summarize what we have learned:
• Hitler and many of his key associates viewed themselves as
genuine Socialists.
• Hitler made it clear both in public and private that he aimed
to essentially "purify" and correct the errors that
Marxists/Communists had made to Socialism, which prevented their
Socialism from living up to its idealistic promises.
• Hitler and Goebbels made clear that the reason National
Socialists were anti-Zionists is because Jews were the elite
beneficiaries of capitalism and profiteers in an unjust system.
• Hitler, Goebbels, and Rosenberg declared National Socialists
were motivated by concerns for "social justice".
• Hitler was thoroughly against post-Renaissance Western
Civilization and wanted to replace it with a radically new
Civilization. (I.e., unlike rightists, he did not admire it nor
want to preserve it.)
• The National Socialist party had many leftist factions which
constantly battled for control of the party--from its early days
all the way to even after Hitler became Chancellor.
• We have multiple quotes from National Socialists and
non-National-Socialists literally saying the NSDAP was a party
of the "left".
• We have evidence from Hitler's rightist enemies (formerly)
within the party, Hitler's leftist enemies (formerly) within the
party, Hitler's leftist enemies who never joined the party, and
Hitler's rightist enemies who never joined the party emphasizing
the Socialism of his ideology. We also have evidence of leftist
and rightist historians emphasizing the leftism and Socialism of
his ideology.
• We have evidence that the National Socialist party and
Communist party were competing for left-wing supporters--which
was apparent even to non-National-Socialists in the 1930s like
Konrad Heiden and F. A. Hayek.
• We have evidence used by Allied intelligence and Nuremberg
Trial prosecutors outlining the social welfare policies of
National Socialist Germany--showing that pre-NS welfare systems
were expanded upon.
• We have evidence of Hitler declaring his intent to forge
alliances with anti-Westerners of diverse ethnic backgrounds
around the world. (And he would later put that into practice,
although we didn't discuss the details in this thread).
• We have evidence that the (rightist,
Western-Civilization-admiring) Neo-Nazi emphasis on words
translated as "creativity" is a misunderstanding of "productive"
vs "non-productive" labor--not IQ scores or 'genetic genius'.
• We have seen that the National Socialist war-time policy to
(allegedly) result in "the disappearance from the face of the
earth...of entire reactionary peoples" may in fact have been an
idea Hitler got from Marxist theorist Frederick Engels. At the
very least, the obvious parallelism between Marxist theory and
National Socialist practice here indicates there was nothing
remarkable about National Socialist war-time actions. The
narrative that NS actions during the war were somehow a
"uniquely" evil machination of their twisted minds is forever
proven to be nonsense. (And, in any case, their polices were far
less successful than the Western ethnic cleansing of both North
and South America, but I digress.)
• Hitler, Otto Strasser, Mussolini, historian A. James Gregor,
philosopher Bertrand Russell, and others agree with our 'big
picture' argument that Marxist Socialism is merely one variety
of Socialism among many.
----
----
I would have been skeptical about all these claims had I not
read all these quotes myself. What else remains to be learned,
buried under a lifetime of propaganda and lies?
#Post#: 11245--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: Zea_mays Date: February 14, 2022, 6:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
What work remains to be done?
I think the information we have compiled here is sufficient to
demonstrate that historic National Socialists viewed themselves
as genuine Socialists.
Now, the task is to flesh out a classification of leftism to
properly contextualize Marxist Socialism/Communism as merely one
type of Socialism among many. Comparing the similarities and
contrasting the key differences between 'orthodox Marxist' and
Communist ideological positions vs National Socialist
ideological positions will be a major task in this. I think it
would be useful to consult the works of A. James Gregor for
this, as this seems to have been the focus of his career
(although he was mostly focused on Fascism and
Marxism/Communism, and less so on National Socialism).
Additionally, we must trace the roots of Socialist ideology back
further in time beyond Marxism and the so-called
"Enlightenment", just as Hitler began to do by declaring his
Socialism was inspired by Jesus. (And even the Marxist slogan,
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his
needs," has been argued to be inspired from the New Testament.)
Lastly, we can outline ways to "purify" present-day
leftist/Socialist ideologies which have thoroughly diverged from
orthodox Marxism, in order to fully cut the string needlessly
attaching them to Communism and Marxism attitudes (e.g.
Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, things like Critical
Race Theory/Intersectionality).
Such discussions can probably be taken to a new thread, leaving
this one for continued curation of historic information.
#Post#: 11367--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: guest55 Date: February 18, 2022, 10:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Where did the new thread go, could have swore I saw one a day or
two ago?
I know Chris Hedges has made quite a few lectures on the topic
of different forms of socialism in the past, I'll have to try
and dig them up. Perhaps there are facts and examples in those
that we can use as a spring board into a wider discussion on the
topic? I haven't been listening to a whole lot of leftist radio
the last couple of years, so I may be a little out of touch on
this subject.
KPFA and KPFK often host people who speak about other forms of
leftism and socialism as well, here is one example I just found:
Ecomodernism and Degrowth:
HTML https://kpfa.org/episode/against-the-grain-march-16-2021/
Just one example. Perhaps when I get some time I'll spend it
scouring the net to see what I can find....
Also, should we not do a thorough breakdown of people like John
Locke from our perspective as perhaps a start to what you
described above?
#Post#: 11597--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: Zea_mays Date: March 1, 2022, 4:31 pm
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[quote]Where did the new thread go, could have swore I saw one a
day or two ago?[/quote]
For reference (so others can easily find them). I made a new
thread for discussing leftist ideological differences here:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-false-left/leftist-ideological-camps-in-the-big-picture-socialism-marxism-true-leftism-etc/
There is also this thread which was split off, which seems more
like off-topic discussion deriving from here:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/re-national-socialists-were-socialists/
#Post#: 15496--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: christianbethel Date: September 6, 2022, 12:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://youtu.be/9-SLqdhkvJo
Thoughts?
#Post#: 18494--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: Zea_mays Date: March 19, 2023, 8:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Previously, we saw how Goebbels wrote in his diary that he was a
communist:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/national-socialism-is-revolutionary-not-reactionary/msg10621/#msg10621
And how Otto Strasser was part of a leftist/communist militia
during the 1918-1919 revolution.
What about Hitler? It seems that his very first political
involvement was on the side of the socialists in Bavaria during
the 1918-1919 revolution--including the final stage during the
most thoroughly communist part. While he likely never admitted
he was part of the revolution, the evidence is pretty
convincing.
This would explain why he was so close to Goebbels and spent so
much effort trying to keep Strasser in the party.
The German Revolution of 1918–1919 was kicked off by mutinying
soldiers, and Hitler's unit in Bavaria was one of the units
which supported the revolution in Bavaria.
[quote]The People's State of Bavaria (German: Volksstaat
Bayern)[nb 1] was a short-lived socialist state in Bavaria from
1918 to 1919. The People's State of Bavaria was established on 8
November 1918 during the German Revolution, as an attempt at a
socialist state to replace the Kingdom of Bavaria. The state was
led by Kurt Eisner until his assassination in February 1919, and
co-existed with the rival Bavarian Soviet Republic from 6 April
1919, with its government under Johannes Hoffmann exiled in
Bamberg. The People's State of Bavaria was dissolved upon the
establishment of the Free State of Bavaria on 14 August
1919.[/quote]
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_State_of_Bavaria
In the final phase, it descended into anarchy and Bolshevism.
However, even in this stage, Hitler lent his services to the
revolutionary republic!
[quote]Though he advocated a socialist republic, Eisner
distanced himself from the Russian Bolsheviks, declaring that
his government would protect property rights.
[...]
On Saturday 12 April 1919, only six days into Toller's regime,
the Communist Party seized power, led by three Russian
Bolsheviks, with Eugen Leviné as head of state and Max Levien as
the chairman of the Bavarian KPD.
[...]
Having received the blessings of Lenin – who at the annual May
Day celebration in Red Square said: "The liberated working class
is celebrating its anniversary not only in Soviet Russia but in
... Soviet Bavaria"[17][19][13] – Leviné began to enact more
hardline communist reforms, which included forming a "Red Army"
from factory workers, seizing cash, food supplies, and privately
owned guns, expropriating luxurious apartments and giving them
to the homeless and placing factories under the ownership and
control of their workers. One of Munich's main churches was
taken over and made into a revolutionary temple dedicated to the
"Goddess of Reason." Bavaria was to be in the vanguard of the
Bolshevization of Europe, with all workers to receive military
training.[13][/quote]
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Soviet_Republic
Recall that during this time period, anti-Hitler Jewish
journalist Konrad Heiden wrote that Hitler considered the
mainstream Majority Socialist faction of the Social Democratic
Party to be "too rightist" for his taste:
[quote]Hitler had spent the winter months of 1918-19 with a
reserve battalion of his regiment at Traunstein, in Upper
Bavaria. At the time when the Soviet Republic was set up, he was
again serving with his regiment in Munich. People who knew him
at this time have stated that he professed himself a Majority
Socialist, and that he even declared his intention of joining
that Party. If this is true, then it was certainly as a matter
of tactics and not of principle. The Majority Socialist Party
was at that time regarded by many as a Party of the Right
because it had lost its pre-War programme and not yet found a
new one.[/quote]
Konrad Heiden. (1934). A History of National Socialism. London:
Methuen and Co. Page 8.
HTML https://archive.org/details/dli.ernet.17342/page/7/mode/2up
The respected mainstream historian Ian Kershaw wrote that during
the German Revolution of 1918-1919 Hitler was chosen as a
representative in the communist Munich Soviet Republic—even
after the Soviet Republic called new elections to ensure
soldiers' representatives reflected the will of the soldiers and
were loyal to the new leadership of the Soviet Republic. Now we
know why Heiden could say that the SPD was too rightist for
Hitler at the time! Going further, Kershaw outlines that many
trusted NSDAP members had aided the communists during the
uprising.
[quote]On 21 November 1918, two days after leaving the hospital
in Pasewalk, Hitler was back in Munich. ... He came back to a
Munich he scarcely recognized. The barracks to which he returned
were run by soldiers' councils. The revolutionary Bavarian
government, in the shape of a provisional National Council, was
in the hands of the Social Democrats and the more radical
Independent Social Democrats. ...
[...]
One of the most remarkable aspects of the biographical parts of
Mein Kampf is how quickly Hitler passed over his own experience
of the traumatic revolutionary period in Bavaria. After all, he
witnessed for the most part at close quarters the turmoil which
so deeply scarred his psyche. He was based in Munich, at the
epicentre of events, for the whole period that saw the descent
into political chaos following the assassination of Eisner and
culminated in the violent end of the 'council's republic'. Yet
the entire treatment of the months between the November
revolution and the suppression of the Räterreplik covers a mere
page of his otherwise expansive book. Finding the soldiers'
councils in charge of his regiment so repelled him, he wrote,
that he decided to leave again as soon as possible. ...
returning to Munich in March 1919. During the Räterpublik—the
'passing rule of Jews' as he dubbed it—Hitler claimed he
pondered what could be done, but repeatedly realized that, since
he was 'nameless', he 'did not possess the least basis for any
useful action'. ...
[...]
The gulf between the momentous nature of the events taking place
before his eyes and this brief and laconic account came not
unnaturally to fuel speculation that Hitler was trying to
obfuscate his own actions and conceal a role which might prove
embarrassing to the later nationalist hero. It does seem likely
that this was indeed his aim, and to a considerable extent he
succeeded in it. What Hitler did, how he reacted to the drama
unfolding around him in Munich in the first half of 1919,
remains for the most part a dark spot in his personal history.
Even so, the evidence, patchy in the extreme though it is,
reveals one or two surprises.
The German Revolution ... was a messy, largely spontaneous and
uncoordinated affair. ...
[...]
The revolution in Bavaria had preceded that in the Reich itself.
...
[...]
When, with a cry of 'off to the barracks', workers, peasants,
soldiers, and sailors attending a huge peace demonstration on
Munich's Theresienwiese on 7 November 1918, addressed by Eisner,
had headed for the city's main garrison area, they had met with
no resistance from the troops.[8] [...] Without support from the
army, the monarchy was finished. The ailing King Ludwig III and
his family fled that night. Hitler, over two decades later, was
to remark that at least he had to thank the Social Democrats for
ridding him of 'these courtly intersts'.[10]
[...]
The assassination of Eisner...on 21 February 1919...provided
then the signal for a deterioration into chaos and near
anarchy.[12]
With 'Red Guards' trampling the corridors and rooms of the
Wittelsbach Palace...a meeting...dominated by members of the
USPD and anarchists, proclaimed a 'Councils Republic' in
Bavaria. Majority Socialists and Communists—the latter dubbing
it a 'Pseudo-Councils Republic' (Scheinräterpublik)—refused to
participate.[14] An attempt to unseat it by using troops loyal
to the elected government...failed on 13 April. But the initial
failure of the counter-revolution simply strengthened the
resolve of the revolutionary hot-heads and ushered in the last
phase of the Bavarian revolution: the full Communist takeover in
the second, or 'real' Räterpublik—an attempt to introduce a
Soviet-style system in Bavaria. 'Today, Bavaria has finally
erected a dictatorship of the proletariat', ran the proclamation
of the new Executive Council under the direction of the
Communist Eugen Leviné, a veteran of the 1905 Russian
revolution.[15] It lasted little more than a fortnight. But it
ended in violence, bloodshed, and deep recrimination, imposing a
baleful legacy on the political climate of Bavaria.
[...]
... propaganda througout the Reich as well as in Bavaria itself,
was that of alien—Bolshevik and Jewish—forces taking over the
state, threatening institutions, tradition, order, and
property...
[...]
For Hitler himself, the significance of the period of revolution
and Räterpublik in Munich can hardly be overrated. It has been
said that Hitler did not decided to become a politician; rather,
through the revolution and the rule of the Councils, politics
came to him, into the barracks.[22] It is time to explore the
truth of that assertion.
[...]
Both, according to Schmidt, were repelled by the changed
conditions in the Munich barracks, now in the hands of the
Soldiers' Councils...[24] If that was indeed the reason for
volunteering, Hitler and Schmidt could have found no improvement
on reaching Traunstein. The camp...was also run by the Soldiers'
Councils which Hitler allegedly so detested. ...Probably in late
January, as Schmidt hinted, Hitler returned to Munich.[26]
[...]
As we have noted, Hitler spoke of his involvement in the
investigatory commission following the suppression of the
Räterpublik as his first political activity. Evidence recently
come to light of Hitler's actions during the revolutionary era
does not accord with this assertion. It also helps to suggest
why Hitler was so reticent about his behaviour during the months
that the 'November criminals', as he later repeatedly called
them, ruled Munich.
A routine order of the demobilization battalion on 3 April 1919
referred to Hitler by name as the representative
(Vertrauensmann) of his company. The strong likelihood is, in
fact, that he had held this position since 15 February. The
duties of the representatives (Vertrauensleute) included
cooperation with the propaganda department of the socialist
government in order to convey 'educational' material to the
troops.[33] Hitler’s first political duties took place,
therefore, in the service of the revolutionary regime run by the
SPD and USPD. It is little wonder that he later wished to say
little of his actions at this time.
In fact, he would have had to explain away the even more
embarrassing fact of his continued involvement at the very
height of Munich's 'red dictatorship'. On 14 April, the day
after the Communist Räterepublik had been proclaimed, the Munich
Soldiers' Councils approved fresh elections of all barrack
representatives to ensure that the Munich garrison stood loyally
behind the new regime. In the elections the following day Hitler
was chosen as Deputy Battalion Representative.[34] Not only,
then, did Hitler do nothing to assist in the crushing of
Munich's 'Red Republic'; he was an elected representative of his
battalion during the whole period of its existence.
How to interpret this evidence is, nevertheless, not altogether
clear. Since the Munich garrison had firmly backed the
revolution since November, and again in April supported the
radical move to the Räterepublik, the obvious implication must
be that Hitler, in order to have been elected as a soldiers'
representative, voiced in these months the views of the
socialist governments he later denounced with every fibre of his
body as 'criminal'. At the very least it would appear that he
could not have put forward strongly opposed views. Already in
the 1920s, and continuing into the 1930s, there were rumours,
never fully countered, that Hitler had initially sympathized
with the Majority SPD following the revolution. Since the
rumours tended to come from left-wing journalists, seeking to
discredit Hitler, they were presumably not taken too seriously.
But comments, for example, in the socialist Münchener Post in
March 1923 that Hitler had assisted in the indoctrination of
troops in favour of the democratic-republican state match the
evidence, which we have noted, that he served, probably from
February 1919 onwards, in such a capacity as Vertrauensmann of
his company.[35] Similar rumours circulated in the socialist
press in the early 1930s.[36] Ernst Toller reported that a
fellow-prisoner also interned for involvement in the
Räterepublik had met Hitler in a Munich barracks during the
first months after the revolution, and that the latter had then
been calling himself a Social Democrat.[37] Konrad Heiden
remarked that, during the time of the Councils Republic, Hitler
had, in heated discussions among his comrades, voiced support
for the Social Democratic government against that of the
Communists. There were even reported rumours – though without
any supportive evidence – that Hitler had spoken of joining the
SPD.[38] In a pointed remark when defending Esser in 1921
against attacks from within the party, Hitler commented:
'Everyone was at one time a Social Democrat.'[39]
In itself, Hitler’s possible support for the Majority Social
Democrats in the revolutionary upheaval is less unlikely than it
might at first sight appear. The political situation was
extremely confused and uncertain. A number of strange
bedfellows, including several who later came to belong to
Hitler’s entourage, initially found themselves on the Left
during the revolution. Sepp Dietrich, later a general in the
Waffen-SS and head of Hitler's SS-Leibstandarte, was elected
chairman of a Soldiers' Council in November 1918. Hitler’s
long-time chauffeur Julius Schreck had served in the 'Red Army'
at the end of April 1919.[40] Hermann Esser, one of Hitler’s
earliest supporters, who became the first propaganda chief of
the NSDAP, had been for a while a journalist on a Social
Democratic newspaper.[41] Gottfried Feder, whose views on
'interest slavery' so gripped Hitler’s imagination in summer
1919, had sent a statement of his position to the socialist
government headed by Kurt Eisner the previous November.[42] And
Balthasar Brandmayer, one of Hitler's closest wartime comrades
and a later fervent supporter, recounted how he at first
welcomed the end of the monarchies, the establishment of a
republic, and the onset of a new era. His subsequent
disillusionment was all the greater. 'Unfortunately,' he added,
'we only changed the marionettes,' while the people continued to
slave and starve. 'We hadn't bled for a councils government
(Räteregierung)'; 'the thanks of the Fatherland were missing,'
he concluded bitterly.[43] Similar sentiments, in which, as was
the case with Brandmayer, aggressive nationalism and
antisemitism intermingled with a form of radicalism born of a
sense of social grievance that was rapidly switched from the old
monarchical regime to the new republic itself, were widespread
following the war. Ideological muddle-headedness, political
confusion and opportunism combined frequently to produce fickle
and shifting allegiances.
[...]
... In Pasewalk, he did not denounce to his superiors (as
patriotic duty would have demanded) the sailors who arrived in
the hospital preaching sedition and revolution.[46] On leaving
the hospital, he avoided committing himself politically, and
made no attempt to join any of the numerous Freikorps units
which sprang up to engaged in the continued fighting on the
eastern borders of the Reich and the suppression of left-wing
radicalism within Germany, not least in Munich itself. After his
return to Munich from Taunstein in February 1919, he most likely
took part, since his regiment had issued orders to participate,
in a demonstration march of about 10,000 left-wing workers and
soldiers in Munich. Probably in April 1919, with Munich ruled by
the Communist Councils, he wore, along with almost all the
soldiers of the Munich garrison, the revolutionary red
armband.[47] That Hitler stood back and took no part whatsoever
in the 'liberation' of Munich from the Räterpunlik is said to
have brought him later scornful reproaches from Ernst Röhm (who
was to head the Nazi stormtroopers), Ritter von Epp (after 1933
Reich Governor in Bavaria), and even Rudolf Heß (who would serve
as Hitler's private secretary and subsequently become Deputy
Leader of the Party).[48][/quote]
Only after the German military put down the revolution did
Hitler find himself fully engaged in anti-Bolshevik activities:
[quote]With the Bavarian government 'exiled'...Munich...was
throughout the spring and summer a city effectively under
military rule.[57] ... The 'education' of the troops in a
'correct' anti-Bolshevik, nationalist fashion was rapidily
regarded as a priority, and 'speaker courses' were devised in
order to train 'suitable personalities from the troops' who
would remain for some considerable time in the army and function
as propaganda agents (Propagandaleute) with qualities of
persuation capable of negating subversive ideas.[58] The
organization of a series of 'anti-Bolshevik courses', beginning
in early June, was placed in the hands of Captain Karl Mayr,
who, a short while earlier, on 30 May, had taken over the
command of the Information Department.[59]
[...]
Within days he [Hitler] had been assigned to the first
anti-Bolshevik 'instruction courses' to take place in Munich
University between 5 and 12 June 1919. ... Among the
speakers...Gottfried Feder...made a deep impression on Hitler,
and eventually led to Feder's role as the economics 'guru' of
the early Nazi Party.
[...]
The task of the squad was to inculcate nationalist and
anti-Bolshevik sentiments in the troops, described as 'infected'
by Bolshevism and Spartacism.[66][/quote]
Ian Kershaw. (1999). Hitler: 1889-1936: Hubris. W. W. Norton &
Company. p. 109-123.
HTML https://archive.org/details/hitlerhubris00kers
#Post#: 18495--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: Zea_mays Date: March 19, 2023, 8:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
In Mein Kampf, Hitler says his first political interest was the
socialism of the SPD, but he became "Jew aware" and turned on
the party while in Vienna before WWI.
This does not line up with the evidence, and it seems likely
Hitler was trying to rewrite his past.
Given the facts, it seems more likely Hitler was one of the many
soldiers who were swept up in politics for the first time during
the 1918-1919 revolution. Jews were in leadership positions in
all stages of the revolution in Bavaria, so Hitler couldn't have
been ignorant of this fact. Yet he served (multiple times) as a
representative anyway.
Hitler's description in Mein Kampf about becoming aware of all
the Jews in the SPD and existing socialist parties, the
existence of a "ruthless struggle" between ideologies, learning
about the importance of speaking, and studying Marxist ideology
in detail lines up very well with his time in the military (both
as a participant in the revolution and subsequent assignment to
anti-bolshevik activities) in 1919, rather than his time in
Vienna.
[quote]Accordingly I had no feeling of antipathy towards the
actual policy of the Social Democrats. That its avowed purpose
was to raise the level of the working classes—which in my
ignorance I then foolishly believed—was a further reason why I
should speak in favour of Social Democracy rather than against
it.
[...]
And so at the age of seventeen the word 'Marxism' was very
little known to me, while I looked on 'Social Democracy' and
'Socialism' as synonymous expressions. It was only as the result
of a sudden blow from the rough hand of Fate that my eyes were
opened to the nature of this unparalleled system for duping the
public.
If Social Democracy should be opposed by a more truthful
teaching, then, even though the struggle be of the bitterest
kind, this truthful teaching will finally prevail, provided it
be enforced with equal ruthlessness.
[...]
I am thankful now for the ordeal which I had to go through at
that time; for it was the means of bringing me to think kindly
again of my own people, inasmuch as the experience enabled me to
distinguish between the false leaders and the victims who have
been led astray.
We must took upon the latter simply as victims.[/quote]
Adolf Hitler. (1925-1926). Mein Kampf. Translated by James
Murphy (1939). London: Hurst and Blackett Ltd. Page 44-50.
HTML https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.526617/page/n45/mode/2up
Now re-read the section about Hitler's actions during the
Räterepublik and compare it. Incredible.
Even more incredible is how all of this evidence of Hitler and
other future National Socialists starting their political
careers as communists has been compiled by a mainstream
historian, yet people still have the nerve to declare National
Socialism as the world's most rightist ideology!
#Post#: 18500--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: antihellenistic Date: March 19, 2023, 11:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
True Left's Statement that Hitler write Mein Kampf only for gain
winning on democratic elections, not for ideological purpose are
confirmed
[quote]“But if what you say is true, you should not have written
Mein Kampf beforehand,” I objected.
“Quite right. And I frequently regret that I did. But at the
time, when I was in Landsberg after November 9, 1923, I thought
everything was over. I was in captivity, I was deprived of my
freedom, the party was expropriated, dissolved—everything seemed
at an end, even worse than Germany after the Great War. I wrote
Mein Kampf as a kind of report to the German Volk, chiefly in
memory of the martyrs of November 9. I wrote it out of the
narrowness of my cell.
“When I was released, I had Mein Kampf printed. Perhaps, I
hoped, it would serve to rally my old friends. And that really
happened! That is how it came about.
“But gradually, I saw that many things were, after all,
different from the way I had seen them through prison bars and
from the way I had figured them out. And soon I set out to draft
changes, improvements. But they only turned out to be changes
for the worse. I thought about withdrawing the book. But it was
too late. It made its way through Germany, it was even spread
abroad, and what was right and positive about it did not miss
its mark. So I kept hands off. I made no more changes. The book
even gave me the financial basis for reconstructing the party.
If I were to write it today, a lot would be different. But
today, I would not write it at all[/quote]
Wagener - Hitler Memoirs of a Confidant page 273
So, learn about National Socialism ideology cannot only from
reading Mein Kampf, or even we must abandon it
#Post#: 18559--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: 90sRetroFan Date: March 22, 2023, 6:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Our enemy Culture Critic accurately recognizes that democracy is
pro-Western:
HTML https://twitter.com/Culture_Crit/status/1638637841537462272
[quote]Reminder that nobody ever voted for this.
[img]
HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fr2cVqTXwAEGaca?format=jpg&name=medium[/img][/quote]
but better still, this led to the following conversation in the
replies where our enemies agree that National Socialism is
indeed anti-Western:
[quote]that building in Manchester looks like one of the
buildings the Nazis (whose architecture SUCKED) built in
Germany.[/quote]
[quote]The German ministry of finance, built in that era, looks
brutalist.
[img]
HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fr228XfXgAAHOnd?format=jpg&name=small[/img][/quote]
[quote]Nazi is brutalism. They're virtually the same thing -
walls of the State's jails.
[img]
HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fr247LCXgAEFPCK?format=jpg&name=medium[/img][/quote]
[quote]Birmingham had a bit of help from the Germans.[/quote]
[quote]The Luftwaffe was involved in blitzkrieg. Dive bombing
campaigns by Stukas we're a large part of it. In addition there
was a bombing campaign of England called the Blitz in 1940 and
1941[/quote]
[quote]Blame the blitz[/quote]
I am happy to reach academic agreement with our enemies. Now
would be a good time for me to repost my post from the old forum
where I was making the same point (long before our enemies did).
OLD CONTENT
By the way, one of the best ways to demonstrate that the Third
Reich is not part of Western civilization, but instead an
attempt to overthrow it, is to look at its architecture, which
deliberately eschews complexity and outright celebrates
austerity (notice in particular the frequent use of square
columns, and also flat roofs):
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1988-092-32%2C_Berlin%2C_Neue_Reichskanzlei.jpg
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1979-105-02%2C_Berlin%2C_Ehrenhof_der_Neuen_Reichskanzlei.jpg
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-S22310%2C_M%C3%BCnchen%2C_K%C3%B6nigsplatz%2C_Ehrentempel.jpg
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Berlin%2C_Mitte%2C_Wilhelmstra%C3%9Fe%2C_Detlev-Rohwedder-Haus.jpg/1024px-Berlin%2C_Mitte%2C_Wilhelmstra%C3%9Fe%2C_Detlev-Rohwedder-Haus.jpg
[img width=960
height=1280]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Foreign_Office_Berlin_2007_003.jpg[/img]
[img width=841
height=1280]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/1936_Olympics_Stadium_-_Berlin.jpg[/img]
[img]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Braunschweig_HJ-Akademie_Ehrenhalle_von_Suedosten_%282006%29.JPG/1024px-Braunschweig_HJ-Akademie_Ehrenhalle_von_Suedosten_%282006%29.JPG[/img]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Haus_der_deutschen_Kunst_1939.jpg
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1990-073-26%2C_M%C3%BCnchen%2C_Haus_der_Deutschen_Kunst_crop.jpg
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Bundesarchiv_B_145_Bild-F089316-0001%2C_M%C3%BCnchen%2C_Haus_der_Kunst.jpg
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Zeppelin_Field_1937.jpg
[img]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Reichsparteitagsgelaende_Zeppelinfeld_Tribuene_68.JPG/1024px-Reichsparteitagsgelaende_Zeppelinfeld_Tribuene_68.JPG[/img]
[img]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Reichsparteitagsgelaende_Zeppelinfeld_63.JPG/1024px-Reichsparteitagsgelaende_Zeppelinfeld_63.JPG[/img]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/ProraLandseite.jpg/1024px-ProraLandseite.jpg
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/ProraSeeseite.jpg/1024px-ProraSeeseite.jpg
For contrast, Western architecture in Germany/Austria a.k.a.
more of the same extremely ugly Homo Hubris self-titillation
found throughout Western civilization:
[img width=655
height=1280]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Ulmer_M%C3%BCnster-Westfassade.jpg[/img]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Drezno%2C_Zwinger%2C_Pawilon_Wa%C5%82owy%284%29.jpg/1024px-Drezno%2C_Zwinger%2C_Pawilon_Wa%C5%82owy%284%29.jpg
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/Die_Frauenkirche_in_Dresden_1.jpg/768px-Die_Frauenkirche_in_Dresden_1.jpg
[img]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/Semperoper-Front.JPG/1024px-Semperoper-Front.JPG[/img]
[img]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Typical_Aachen_street_with_early_20th-century_Gr%C3%BCnderzeit_houses_%282%29.JPG/1024px-Typical_Aachen_street_with_early_20th-century_Gr%C3%BCnderzeit_houses_%282%29.JPG[/img]
[img width=778
height=1280]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Leipzig_Palais_Ro%C3%9Fbach.jpg[/img]
[img]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Pommersfelden_Schloss_Wei%C3%9Fenstein_002.JPG/1024px-Pommersfelden_Schloss_Wei%C3%9Fenstein_002.JPG[/img]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Gartenseite_Sanssouci.jpg/1021px-Gartenseite_Sanssouci.jpg
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Wien-Innere_Stadt_-_Josefsplatz_5_-_Portal_des_Palais_Pallavicini.jpg/768px-Wien-Innere_Stadt_-_Josefsplatz_5_-_Portal_des_Palais_Pallavicini.jpg
END OF OLD CONTENT
See also:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-false-left/jews-have-nothing-in-common-with-us!/msg11512/?topicseen#msg11512
[quote]Hitler having zero qualms about destroying Western
architecture:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Warsaw
[quote] German forces dedicated an unprecedented effort to
razing the city, destroying 80–90% of Warsaw's buildings,
including the vast majority of museums, art galleries, theaters,
churches, parks, and historical buildings such as castles and
palaces. They deliberately demolished, burned, or stole an
immense part of Warsaw's cultural heritage. [/quote]
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Castle,_Warsaw#During_World_War_II
[quote] On 4 October 1939 in Berlin, Adolf Hitler issued the
order to blow up the Royal Castle.[/quote]
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Palace
[quote] the Saxon Palace was blown up by the Germans as part
of their planned destruction of Warsaw.[2][3][/quote]
etc. etc. (Hail Hitler!)[/quote]
One more excerpt from the enemy conversation:
[quote][img]
HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fr2gf4yXwAQ9wMg?format=jpg&name=medium[/img]
[img width=1280
height=919]
HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fr2gf42WcAMLoIU?format=jpg&name=large[/img][/quote]
Why do you think Hitler despised France?
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