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#Post#: 4122--------------------------------------------------
Kimba
DIR By: Robertyoung7382
Date: February 11, 2021, 5:01 pm
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Why is your avatar Kimba? The 'Kimba the White Lion' franchise
is one of the most pro-western-colonialist works to have ever
been produced in Japan.
#Post#: 4151--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Non-Aryan ADHD
DIR By: guest27
Date: February 12, 2021, 3:12 am
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--- Quote from: Robertyoung7382 link ---
>
> Why is your avatar Kimba? The 'Kimba the White Lion' franchise
is one of the most pro-western-colonialist works to have ever
been produced in Japan.
>
--- End Quote ---
How so? Just because he's a "white" lion? He rules a jungle
wherein he bans predation and fights human villains (generally,
white poachers). He's a heroic lion.
I never liked the English intro though, which does have
colonialist vibes, emphasizing Leo's whiteness and Africa's
'darkness'. Astro-Boy (another of Osamu Tezuka's works) is
generally credited as having an anti-racist message. I only know
Jungle Emperor Leo (Kimba), and Leo often stands up against
species-based prejudice, and there's no skew in the light that
dark and light skinned humans are depicted (although the animal
villains are generally depicted as darker, a common albeit
problematic trope to provide contrast. You could, although you'd
be reaching, argue this tendency is fundamentally rooted in
racism, but it's unlikely conscious or intentional on Tezuka's
part).
#Post#: 4154--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Non-Aryan ADHD
DIR By: Robertyoung7382
Date: February 12, 2021, 11:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Emily link ---
>
> [quote author=Robertyoung7382 link=topic=85.msg4122#msg4122
date=1613084477]
> Why is your avatar Kimba? The 'Kimba the White Lion' franchise
is one of the most pro-western-colonialist works to have ever
been produced in Japan.
>
--- End Quote ---
How so? Just because he's a "white" lion? He rules a jungle
wherein he bans predation and fights human villains (generally,
white poachers). He's a heroic lion.
I never liked the English intro though, which does have
colonialist vibes, emphasizing Leo's whiteness and Africa's
'darkness'. Astro-Boy (another of Osamu Tezuka's works) is
generally credited as having an anti-racist message. I only know
Jungle Emperor Leo (Kimba), and Leo often stands up against
species-based prejudice, and there's no skew in the light that
dark and light skinned humans are depicted (although the animal
villains are generally depicted as darker, a common albeit
problematic trope to provide contrast. You could, although you'd
be reaching, argue this tendency is fundamentally rooted in
racism, but it's unlikely conscious or intentional on Tezuka's
part).
[/quote]
Have you ever watched any episode from any of the first two
animes of the 'Kimba the White Lion' franchise that Tezuka and
his company themselves created? If you watched the animes, you
will clearly see that Black people and Arabic people are
depicted in a negative manner; and the fact that Kimba/Leo
promotes genocide in favor of humanism; and the fact that
Kimba's white fur was emphasized to depict superiority over the
'darker lions.
Plus, to get an English release of the second 'Kimba' anime
series, where Kimba/Leo is an adult, Tezuka and his company
worked with Pat Robertson (homophobic right-winger) to secure
the release on Robertson's TV network.
And before you complain that such events were products of
bastardization by Americans, Tezuka's 'Jungle Emperor' manga
(which started the 'Kimba' franchise) was, also, racist; and
even NBC, which serialized the first 'Kimba' anime series in
America, even told Tezuka and Tezuka's to change it up to make
it more appropriate.
#Post#: 4155--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Non-Aryan ADHD
DIR By: guest27
Date: February 12, 2021, 3:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Have you ever watched any episode from any of the first two
animes of the 'Kimba the White Lion' franchise that Tezuka and
his company themselves created? If you watched the animes, you
will clearly see that Black people and Arabic people are
depicted in a negative manner; and the fact that Kimba/Leo
promotes genocide in favor of humanism.
--- End Quote ---
I've watched most of the original series and I'm not sure what
you're talking about here. Especially, genocide in favour of
humanism? I'm highly curious where you found this, it sounds
completely out of character for the series.
--- Quote ---
> Tezuka's 'Jungle Emperor' manga (which started the 'Kimba'
franchise) was, also, racist; and even NBC, which serialized the
first 'Kimba' anime series in America, even told Tezuka and
Tezuka's to change it up to make it more appropriate.
--- End Quote ---
I've read the Manga and haven't noticed an overall negative
depiction of black people, despite their caricatures being
problematic (from a Western perspective, anyway). Both whites
and blacks were caricaturized and depicted as either friendly or
barbaric.
I find it extremely unlikely Tezuka was a racist. It's more
likely he was poorly educated. And I certainly haven't seen what
you saw in Jungle Emperor Leo.
(And again, light heroes and dark villains is a technique in
virtually every tale. It rarely has anything to do with race.)
#Post#: 4180--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Non-Aryan ADHD
DIR By: Robertyoung7382
Date: February 13, 2021, 11:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Emily link ---
>
> [quote]Have you ever watched any episode from any of the first
two animes of the 'Kimba the White Lion' franchise that Tezuka
and his company themselves created? If you watched the animes,
you will clearly see that Black people and Arabic people are
depicted in a negative manner; and the fact that Kimba/Leo
promotes genocide in favor of humanism.
--- End Quote ---
I've watched most of the original series and I'm not sure what
you're talking about here. Especially, genocide in favour of
humanism? I'm highly curious where you found this, it sounds
completely out of character for the series.
--- Quote ---
> Tezuka's 'Jungle Emperor' manga (which started the 'Kimba'
franchise) was, also, racist; and even NBC, which serialized the
first 'Kimba' anime series in America, even told Tezuka and
Tezuka's to change it up to make it more appropriate.
--- End Quote ---
I've read the Manga and haven't noticed an overall negative
depiction of black people, despite their caricatures being
problematic (from a Western perspective, anyway). Both whites
and blacks were caricaturized and depicted as either friendly or
barbaric.
I find it extremely unlikely Tezuka was a racist. It's more
likely he was poorly educated. And I certainly haven't seen what
you saw in Jungle Emperor Leo.
(And again, light heroes and dark villains is a technique in
virtually every tale. It rarely has anything to do with race.)
[/quote]
If you actually watched the anime shows, you would know what
episode that I'm talking about. Kimba himself literally sides
with European colonialists that decide to commit genocide
against elephants.
And what do you mean 'from a western perspective? Tezuka himself
put a lot of bigotry into his 'Kimba' franchise, which got
pushback from both Americans and Canadians that were initially
interested in syndicating his work. Heck, he had to rely on Pat
Robertson (as I have mentioned before) just to get some of his
'Kimba' works released to an English-speaking audience.
And yes, Tezuka was a racist man, and a stubborn one, too; and
he was not stupid, too. The fact that you are denying and
deflecting this doesn't change a thing.
#Post#: 4181--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Non-Aryan ADHD
DIR By: guest27
Date: February 13, 2021, 1:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Kimba himself literally sides with European colonialists that
decide to commit genocide against elephants.
--- End Quote ---
Episode 25? Kimba was very clearly opposed to the elephant cull,
risking his life several times to intervene, even in spite of
his negative experiences with the elephants.
--- Quote ---
> And what do you mean 'from a western perspective?
--- End Quote ---
Exaggerated and stereotyped caricatures of black people are
particularly a problem from a Western perspective because black
stereotypes are liable to being taken literally (whereas white
stereotypes are not) and they're more likely to be viewed as
'negative' (personally, I view belonging to a primitive,
cannibalistic tribe as less negative than being a Westerner);
and although exaggerated black caricatures are no less
aesthetically pleasing than European ones (big, bright lips vs
huge noses) the fact this makes them look "different from us" is
xenophobe-fodder, bonus points if it makes them look more
ape-like (pity they can't just look Jew-like, like European
caricatures /sarcasm). A naive cartoonist might draw such
caricatures without any racist intent, and I can't say I've ever
heard of a racist anti-speciesist.
Some Tezuka quotes:
"Human beings wear clothing and walk upright, but when you take
that away, we're nothing but monkeys."
"What I try to appeal through my works is simple. The opinion is
just a simple message that follows: "Love all the creatures!
Love everything that has life!" ~ Osamu Tezuka"
"I wish that all the ills of society - conformism, laziness,
indolence, betrayal, violence, lust, r*pe - and especially the
evils of politics will be represented in the form of an absolute
depravity."
"And then Japanese children after the war had no choice but to
face the flood of Disney comics that accompanied the
brainwashing of “American democracy.” That was their merit as
propaganda against the Japanese."
You're treating the Pat Robertson thing as though they were
comrades and Tezuka wasn't just trying to air his show. In fact
it might be tactical to air my propaganda on the enemy's
network.
#Post#: 4203--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Non-Aryan ADHD
DIR By: Robertyoung7382
Date: February 14, 2021, 4:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Emily link ---
>
> [quote]Kimba himself literally sides with European
colonialists that decide to commit genocide against elephants.
--- End Quote ---
Episode 25? Kimba was very clearly opposed to the elephant cull,
risking his life several times to intervene, even in spite of
his negative experiences with the elephants.
--- Quote ---
> And what do you mean 'from a western perspective?
--- End Quote ---
Exaggerated and stereotyped caricatures of black people are
particularly a problem from a Western perspective because black
stereotypes are liable to being taken literally (whereas white
stereotypes are not) and they're more likely to be viewed as
'negative' (personally, I view belonging to a primitive,
cannibalistic tribe as less negative than being a Westerner);
and although exaggerated black caricatures are no less
aesthetically pleasing than European ones (big, bright lips vs
huge noses) the fact this makes them look "different from us" is
xenophobe-fodder, bonus points if it makes them look more
ape-like (pity they can't just look Jew-like, like European
caricatures /sarcasm). A naive cartoonist might draw such
caricatures without any racist intent, and I can't say I've ever
heard of a racist anti-speciesist.
Some Tezuka quotes:
"Human beings wear clothing and walk upright, but when you take
that away, we're nothing but monkeys."
"What I try to appeal through my works is simple. The opinion is
just a simple message that follows: "Love all the creatures!
Love everything that has life!" ~ Osamu Tezuka"
"I wish that all the ills of society - conformism, laziness,
indolence, betrayal, violence, lust, r*pe - and especially the
evils of politics will be represented in the form of an absolute
depravity."
"And then Japanese children after the war had no choice but to
face the flood of Disney comics that accompanied the
brainwashing of “American democracy.” That was their merit as
propaganda against the Japanese."
You're treating the Pat Robertson thing as though they were
comrades and Tezuka wasn't just trying to air his show. In fact
it might be tactical to air my propaganda on the enemy's
network.
[/quote]
Kimba gave up on the elephants (after a negative experience with
them) and ultimately allowed the European colonists to kill them
all. In fact, Kimba made one exception for a baby elephant,
which is similar to a white slave owner liking one Black child
that they find likeable (which is the case with Jefferson
Davis); and they will continue to be cruel in general, and
possibly use their liking to terribly deflect from legitimate
censures.
Also, given Kimba's representation and enablement of white
supremacy, why shouldn't elephants and other animals generally
distrust Kimba?
And good to know that you'll mention a lot of non-sequitors to
justify Tezuka's racism against Black people; and the kind of
racism that Tezuka wished to support, even when people told him
that he was wrong.
And yes, Robertson and Tezuka were comrades in promoting
bigotry, even if they had other kinds of differences. Robertson
is not the only homophobic bigot that Tezuka teamed up. Tezuka
teamed up with other homophobic bigots to release a Bible-based
anime.
#Post#: 4205--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Non-Aryan ADHD
DIR By: guest27
Date: February 14, 2021, 7:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Kimba gave up on the elephants (after a negative experience
with them)
--- End Quote ---
Wrong. I suggest you rewatch the episode. He only gave up after
it was too late to stop the humans. He himself said, even though
he strongly dislikes them, he doesn't want them to be killed.
The moral of the story was that not getting along can have
terrible consequences, and that we should always try to solve
our problems non-violently. Given the revenge-philosophy of
90sRF he'd probably even prefer Leo kill the "immoral" elephants
(after torturing them, of course), but I disagree with that.
I'm getting the strong impression you're invested in painting
Tezuka and Jungle Emperor Leo as racist, because you seem to be
really grasping at straws. None of your evidence is damning. The
fact is that Leo was an unusually heroic character going so far
as to oppose predation in nature, therefore I'm invested in
being sympathetic to Tezuka, and highly skeptical of allegations
against him.
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