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#Post#: 3857--------------------------------------------------
New Trojan myth confirmed
By: 90sRetroFan Date: January 30, 2021, 11:53 pm
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OLD CONTENT
I told you so:
www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2019/april/neolithic-britain-where-d
id-the-first-farmers-come-from.html
[quote]The southern route
The intrigue doesn't stop there. When the original Neolithic
farmers left the Aegean and began spreading out across Europe,
the population very quickly split into two rough groups that
developed slightly different cultures.
One of these went north along the Danube and mixed with the
hunter-gatherer populations of Central Europe, while the other
took a more southerly route along the Mediterranean before
reaching Iberia.
While we know that the hunter-gatherers of Britain share close
ties with those from Scandinavia, the Neolithic culture shows a
mix of both these Central European and Mediterranean traditions.
It is difficult to fully understand where the Neolithic farmers
came from.
While it might make more sense for them to have crossed over
from Central Europe group, the genetics show that the new influx
of Neolithic farmers came instead from the Iberian contingent
that travelled first along the Mediterranean and then up the
Atlantic coast.
'To some extent, this is quite surprising,' says Tom.
'Culturally the Neolithic Britons looks like a mix, but
genetically they are very much more Iberian and Mediterranean
then they are central European.[/quote]
It is not surprising. There was no location corresponding to
Britain in the Aesir myths. The Brutus expedition is what
accounts for Britain, which followed exactly the route described
above.
---
www.nationalgeographic.com/history/magazine/2020/05-06/face-7500
-year-old-woman-reveals-gibraltar-earliest-humans/
[quote]The skull’s age remained a mystery for many years. In
2019 the results of a landmark study proved through DNA analysis
that it belonged to a woman who lived 7,500 years ago, making it
the oldest remnant of a modern female woman found in Gibraltar
to date.
Analysis also revealed that the skull’s genetic ancestry lay far
east of the Iberian Peninsula. The presence of genes from across
the Mediterranean gave archaeologists new clues about how
ancient humans traveled when agriculture was spreading through
Europe.
...
The results told the researchers a great deal: The skull
belonged to a woman who lived around 5400 B.C.—many millennia
after the Neanderthals of Gibraltar had become extinct. She was
slightly built, light-skinned, with dark hair and eyes. She was
also lactose intolerant (a common trait for that period).
Dated to 7,500 years ago, Calpeia’s life corresponds to the
later Neolithic period. She lived at a time when agriculture and
raising livestock were spreading across the Iberian Peninsula,
displacing the old hunter-gatherer model. Her lactose
intolerance indicates that dairy farming was most likely not
part of her culture.
...
Researchers were most excited about what DNA revealed about
Calpeia’s ancestry. Only 10 percent of Calpeia’s genome comes
from the population found in the Iberian Peninsula, while the
remaining 90 percent has its origin in Anatolia, modern-day
Turkey.[/quote]
#Post#: 5760--------------------------------------------------
Skara Brae: Orkney’s Neolithic Heart
By: guest5 Date: April 22, 2021, 8:37 pm
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Skara Brae: Orkney’s Neolithic Heart
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgWJSbdb4kI
#Post#: 8591--------------------------------------------------
Re: New Trojan myth confirmed
By: 90sRetroFan Date: September 4, 2021, 11:45 pm
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I told you so:
HTML https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/an-ancient-monument-associated-with-King-Arthur-is-Older-than-Stonehenge-180978541/
[quote]Arthur’s Stone dates to around 3700 B.C.E., making it a
millennium older than Stonehenge, which was constructed around
2500 B.C.E.
...
The number of Neolithic features present in the landscape
surrounding Arthur’s Stone indicate “that this was a place that
people came to for gatherings, meetings [and] feasting … and a
place that retained its significance for centuries,” as Thomas
tells Live Science’s Tom Metcalfe.
...
Researchers identified two distinct phases in Arthur’s Stone’s
construction. Initially, reports Current Archaeology, the
hilltop tomb consisted of a long mound of stacked turf that
pointed southwest, toward Dorstone Hill. It was surrounded by a
palisade of wooden posts that eventually decayed, leading the
mound to collapse.
After the first mound fell, Neolithic people rebuilt it with a
larger avenue of post pillars, two rock chambers and an upright
stone. These later posts faced the southeast rather than the
southwest.[/quote]
Back when almost everyone else was saying Camelot was after the
fall of Rome, I was saying it was from the Neolithic era,
because Giants were among Arthur's opponents:
[quote]Another origin story claims that Arthur killed a giant,
whose elbows left impressions in the soil as he fell, at the
site.[/quote]
(And yes, I still believe Arthur and Grendel are the same
person.)
See also:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/mythical-world/stonehenge-and-the-neolithic/
#Post#: 8995--------------------------------------------------
Neolithic Britain | Ancient History Documentary (4000 - 2500 BC)
By: guest55 Date: September 23, 2021, 1:56 pm
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Neolithic Britain | Ancient History Documentary (4000 - 2500 BC)
[quote]The entire history of Neolithic Britain and Ireland from
the migration and rise of the first farmers to the fall of their
civilisation.
Who were the first farmers of the British Isles? Where did they
come from and why did they migrate to these islands?
And why did they build all those incredible megalithic monuments
that we see in the landscape today?
This documentary covers the history of the Neolithic in Britain
from around 4000 BC to the arrival of the Bell Beaker people in
about 2500 BC.
We will look at the first farmers of Europe and their migrations
across the continent, as well as their interactions with the
Mesolithic Western Hunter Gatherers who were already there.
And we will dispel some of the biggest popular misconceptions
about these amazing people. [/quote]
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuZLxWvv5vg
#Post#: 8996--------------------------------------------------
Re: Neolithic Britain | Ancient History Documentary (4000 - 2500
BC)
By: guest55 Date: September 23, 2021, 2:04 pm
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Early farmers from across Europe directly descended from
Neolithic Aegeans
[quote]Significance
One of the most enduring and widely debated questions in
prehistoric archaeology concerns the origins of Europe’s
earliest farmers: Were they the descendants of local
hunter-gatherers, or did they migrate from southwestern Asia,
where farming began? We recover genome-wide DNA sequences from
early farmers on both the European and Asian sides of the Aegean
to reveal an unbroken chain of ancestry leading from central and
southwestern Europe back to Greece and northwestern Anatolia.
Our study provides the coup de grâce to the notion that farming
spread into and across Europe via the dissemination of ideas but
without, or with only a limited, migration of people.[/quote]
[quote]Abstract
Farming and sedentism first appeared in southwestern Asia during
the early Holocene and later spread to neighboring regions,
including Europe, along multiple dispersal routes. Conspicuous
uncertainties remain about the relative roles of migration,
cultural diffusion, and admixture with local foragers in the
early Neolithization of Europe. Here we present paleogenomic
data for five Neolithic individuals from northern Greece and
northwestern Turkey spanning the time and region of the earliest
spread of farming into Europe. We use a novel approach to
recalibrate raw reads and call genotypes from ancient DNA and
observe striking genetic similarity both among Aegean early
farmers and with those from across Europe. Our study
demonstrates a direct genetic link between Mediterranean and
Central European early farmers and those of Greece and Anatolia,
extending the European Neolithic migratory chain all the way
back to southwestern Asia.[/quote]
Entire article:
HTML https://www.pnas.org/content/113/25/6886
#Post#: 9660--------------------------------------------------
Re: New Trojan myth confirmed
By: 90sRetroFan Date: November 3, 2021, 10:30 pm
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HTML https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/king-arthurs-round-table
[quote]King Arthur’s Round Table is actually a late Neolithic
period earthwork henge that dates back to around 2000-1000
B.C.—even further than Arthurian legend.[/quote]
Except according to our interpretation which places Arthurian
legend in the Neolithic era!
[quote]Like other Neolithic monuments, the exact purpose of the
site remains unknown. Although, it is thought that it might have
been the meeting place for a large prehistoric community,
perhaps for trading purposes though possibly also for ritual or
ceremonial use. The latter is supported by Collingwood’s
findings of a cremation site within the henge.[/quote]
#Post#: 14140--------------------------------------------------
Re: New Trojan myth confirmed
By: Zea_mays Date: June 16, 2022, 11:26 pm
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By ~2500 BC, Turanians arrived in Britain and almost completely
replaced Neolithic lineages, giving us a lower bound for when
Brutus, Arthur, etc. would have been around (see figure 3):
HTML https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323916898_The_Beaker_phenomenon_and_the_genomic_transformation_of_northwest_Europe
Interestingly, around this same time period, Troy was destroyed,
corresponding to the major Turanian migrations which were
occurring:
[quote]The second destruction took place around 2300 BC, as part
of a crisis that affected other sites in the Eastern
Mediterranean and the Middle East.[/quote]
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy#Troy_II
Homer's Troy is believed to have existed around 1000 years
later, however:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy#Troy_VI-VII
If we take the story of the Trojan war literally, the timing
doesn't make sense for Aeneas, Brutus, or Thor to have left
after Homer's Trojan war. But it does make sense if ancient
authors had conflated multiple similar stories of wars and
migrations over the prior thousands of years.
----
As for Aeneas's founding of the Roman lineage, some
archaeological evidence suggests the Etruscans could have
founded Rome or otherwise heavily influenced it. They even
invented the fasces.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization#Possible_founding_of_Rome
The Etruscans continued to speak a non-Indo-European language
into Roman times (and I think it makes sense to imagine it was a
language brought over during the Neolithic migrations).
Some genetic studies found Etruscans can trace their genetics
back to the Neolithic as well:
[quote]A couple of mitochondrial DNA studies, published in 2013
in the journals PLOS One and American Journal of Physical
Anthropology, based on Etruscan samples from Tuscany and Latium,
concluded that the Etruscans were an indigenous population,
showing that Etruscans' mtDNA appear to fall very close to a
Neolithic population from Central Europe (Germany, Austria,
Hungary) and to other Tuscan populations, strongly suggesting
that the Etruscan civilization developed locally from the
Villanovan culture, as already supported by archaeological
evidence and anthropological research,[13][69] and that genetic
links between Tuscany and western Anatolia date back to at least
5,000 years ago during the Neolithic and the "most likely
separation time between Tuscany and Western Anatolia falls
around 7,600 years ago", at the time of the migrations of Early
European Farmers (EEF) from Anatolia to Europe in the early
Neolithic.[/quote]
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization#Genetic_research
I don't recall if this was picked up in the Diffusion Series,
but the Etruscan word for god is ais/eis (plural aisar/eisar).
That may sound very familiar!
HTML https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Etruscan_word_list
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesir
Some linguists have speculated Etruscan can be placed in the
"Tyrsenian" language family--which seems like it would clearly
be linked to Neolithic dispersal:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrsenian_languages
----
Brutus, Aeneas's descendant, continued migrating to Britain,
according to myths.
[quote]Neolithic individuals from southern France and Britain
are also significantly closer to Iberian Early Neolithic farmers
than they are to central European Early Neolithic farmers (Fig.
2b), consistent with a previous analysis of a Neolithic genome
from Ireland.
[...]
Our results suggest that a portion of the ancestry of the
Neolithic populations of Britain was derived from migrants who
spread along the Atlantic coast. Megalithic tombs document
substantial interaction along the Atlantic façade of Europe, and
our results are consistent with such interactions reflecting
south-to-north movements of people.[/quote]
HTML https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323916898_The_Beaker_phenomenon_and_the_genomic_transformation_of_northwest_Europe
Above we can also see they found evidence of seperate Danubian
Basin and coastal dispersions that were known from archaeology:
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Expansion_n%C3%A9olithique.png/1024px-Expansion_n%C3%A9olithique.png
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Expansion_n%C3%A9olithique.png
By ~4000 BC, they had made it to Britain (according to
archaeology):
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Chronology_of_arrival_times_of_the_Neolithic_transition_in_Europe.jpg/1280px-Chronology_of_arrival_times_of_the_Neolithic_transition_in_Europe.jpg
HTML https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chronology_of_arrival_times_of_the_Neolithic_transition_in_Europe.jpg
But not before passing through Aquitaine/Vasconia and northern
France (according to mythology and the map above).
[quote]Geoffrey of Monmouth's account tells much the same story,
but in greater detail.[11]
[...]
After some adventures in north Africa and a close encounter with
the Sirens, Brutus discovers another group of exiled Trojans
living on the shores of the Tyrrhenian Sea, led by the
prodigious warrior Corineus. In Gaul, Corineus provokes a war
with Goffarius Pictus, king of Aquitaine, after hunting in the
king's forests without permission. Brutus's nephew Turonus dies
in the fighting, and the city of Tours is founded where he is
buried. The Trojans win most of their battles but are conscious
that the Gauls have the advantage of numbers, so go back to
their ships and sail for Britain, then called Albion. They land
on "Totonesium litus"—"the sea-coast of Totnes". They meet the
giant descendants of Albion and defeat them.[/quote]
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutus_of_Troy#Historia_Regum_Britanniae
According to genetics, the giants were defeated indeed:
[quote]Unlike other European Neolithic populations, we detect no
resurgence of hunter-gatherer ancestry at any time during the
Neolithic in Britain. Genetic affinities with Iberian Neolithic
individuals indicate that British Neolithic people were mostly
descended from Aegean farmers who followed the Mediterranean
route of dispersal.[/quote]
HTML https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-019-0871-9
----
As for southern Spain and Aquitaine/Vasconia, Greek/Roman writer
Strabo reported the Tartessian people of Spain traced their
history back 6000 years. Any ideas of how this region fits into
mythology? (I don't think Tartessos is Atlantis, as some have
proposed, since that would be the opposite direction of the
Neolithic migrations.)
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language#History
From the discussion here:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/ancient-world/the-ancient-rolemodels-of-our-enemies/
[quote]Racially, we could speculate that Occitania had more
Aryan blood than the rest of medieval Christendom in part due to
absence of Viking genetic imprint, hence not coincidentally came
up with the most Gnostic form of Christianity.[/quote]
Correspondingly, in Al-Andalus:
[quote]The Turdetani of the Roman period are generally
considered the heirs of the Tartessian culture. Strabo mentions
that: "The Turdetanians are ranked as the wisest of the
Iberians; and they make use of an alphabet, and possess records
of their ancient history, poems, and laws written in verse that
are six thousand years old, as they assert."[14][/quote]
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language#History
Assuming their dating chronology is at least somewhat accurate,
this could easily mean the Tartessians traced their mythological
origins back to the Neolithic diffusion. (Note how some sites in
Occitania are also of similar age):
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chronology_of_arrival_times_of_the_Neolithic_transition_in_Europe.jpg
The Tartessian language is a non-Indo-European language, and I
would speculate it's most likely it's a remnant of the languages
brought by the Neolithic diffusion.
It has been hypothesized that the Basque language is the last
remaining member of the "Vasconic languages". The originator of
this theory suggests it is a Paleolithic language, some others
have suggested it was a non-Indo-European language related to
Turanian migrations, but I think it is just as likely to be
Neolithic. This doesn't necessarily mean Basque culture as a
whole retains more Aryan qualities than others, just that, being
in an isolated backwater, the language was not replaced.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasconic_substrate_hypothesis
However, note that the swastika is a customary symbol of the
Basques, and I think I read it was also used by other
"Paleohispanic" cultures.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauburu
Sparse data has prevented the Tartessian language from being
grouped under the Vasconic languages, but, again, it was among
the non-Indo-European languages spoken in Spain into Roman
times.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleohispanic_languages
#Post#: 14143--------------------------------------------------
Re: New Trojan myth confirmed
By: 90sRetroFan Date: June 17, 2022, 1:02 am
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"the timing doesn't make sense for Aeneas, Brutus, or Thor to
have left after Homer's Trojan war."
In Aryan Diffusion Part 6, our position was:
[quote]while the archaeological Thor and Brutus were indeed
princes of Troy (as asserted by the Edda and the Historia
respectively), they could not possibly have been descendants of
Priam or anyone else from the Bronze Age, but should actually
have predated Priam by thousands of years. The only Trojan
expedition that really did migrate after the Trojan War was that
of Prince Aeneas to Italy (as asserted by the Aeneid).[/quote]
The difference is that Brutus' New Trojans and Thor's Aesir were
respectively the first infusions of Aryan blood into Britain and
Germany, whereas Aeneas' post-Trojan-War Trojans were not the
first infusion of Aryan blood into Italy (where the Saturnians
had already arrived much earlier).
Thus I totally disregard the claim in Historia that Brutus is a
descendant of Aeneas.
"As for southern Spain and Aquitaine/Vasconia, Greek/Roman
writer Strabo reported the Tartessian people of Spain traced
their history back 6000 years. Any ideas of how this region fits
into mythology?"
They could be Saturnians:
HTML http://aryanism.net/wp-content/uploads/Cardial.png
or even Athenians as theorized in Part 6:
[quote]Libyans west of Lake Trito (“Western Libyans”) were
farmers while Libyans east of Lake Trito (“Eastern Libyans”)
were shepherds
...
Some theories claim that Athena spent her childhood in Libya,
which not only does not contradict the Byblos account (which
states that Ilus knew all the Mediterranean lands) but would
moreover explain Athena’s familiarity with Sicily - a sensible
stop on any voyage between Tunisia and Greece. On this account,
“Western Libyans” could be classified as a different branch of
Athenians, possibly the branch (Almagra culture) which first
spread cereals and other crops - again including the olive tree
- to Andalusia, slightly predating the Saturnian (Cardial
culture) arrival in East Iberia. Brutus could have picked up
descendants of both groups as he sailed round the Iberian
peninsula.[/quote]
The archaeology:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Iberia#Neolithic
[quote]In the 6th millennium BC, Andalusia experiences the
arrival of the first agriculturalists. Their origin is uncertain
(though North Africa is a serious candidate) but they arrive
with already developed crops (cereals and legumes). The presence
of domestic animals instead is unlikely, as only pig and rabbit
remains have been found and these could belong to wild animals.
They also consumed large amounts of olives but it's uncertain
too whether this tree was cultivated or merely harvested in its
wild form. Their typical artifact is the La Almagra style
pottery, quite variegated.[10]
The Andalusian Neolithic also influenced other areas, notably
Southern Portugal, where, soon after the arrival of agriculture,
the first dolmen tombs begin to be built c. 4800 BC, being
possibly the oldest of their kind anywhere.[10]
C. 4700 BC Cardium pottery Neolithic culture (also known as
Mediterranean Neolithic) arrives to Eastern Iberia. While some
remains of this culture have been found as far west as Portugal,
its distribution is basically Mediterranean (Catalonia,
Valencian region, Ebro valley, Balearic islands).
The interior and the northern coastal areas remain largely
marginal in this process of spread of agriculture.[/quote]
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