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#Post#: 12651--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: Dazhbog
Date: April 9, 2022, 5:31 am
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--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
> Are most Russians able to distinguish a Ukrainian from a
Russian by physical appearance alone? To put it another way, can
Ukrainians who abandon Ukrainian language and use Russian
language pass as Russian?
--- End Quote ---
That depends. For sure, many Ukrainians are Russian-passing,
however, Ukrainians are commonly stereotyped as being visibly
darker than the Russians, so other Ukrainians may not be.
--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
> What I'm trying to figure out is whether it's Russians barring
Ukrainians who want to integrate from doing so, or Ukrainians
emphasizing Ukrainian distinctiveness in order to avoid becoming
integrated.
--- End Quote ---
Let's pretend the latter is the case. Does that automatically
disqualify them from being victims of colonialism?
For sure, the Irish and to some extent the Scottish are victims
of British colonialism, yet they strike me as physically
indistinguishable from non-Irish/Scottish Britons. The Catalans
are victims of Spanish colonialism, yet they strike me as
physically indistinguishable from non-Catalan Spaniards. The
Bosnians and the Croats are victims of Serb colonialism, yet
they strike me as physically indistinguishable from Serbs.
What I'm getting at is that we shouldn't only be asking whether
a person has the choice to integrate, but also whether
integration means benefiting from colonialism (or other displays
of ignobility). If the latter is the case, not choosing to
integrate (thus voluntarily grouping yourself with other
victims) might actually be noble.
By emphasizing Irishness/Scottishness as opposed to Britishness,
you are refusing to benefit from British colonialism, by
emphasizing Catalanness as opposed to Spanishness, you are
refusing to benefit from Spanish colonialism and by emphasizing
Bosnianness/Croatness as opposed to Serbness, you are refusing
to benefit from Serb colonialism. By the same token, by
emphasizing Ukrainianness as opposed to Russianness, you are
refusing to benefit from Russian colonialism.
Yes, you could argue that they have a choice to benefit or not
to benefit, whereas physically distinguishable victims of
colonialism do not. However, we will for sure agree that
benefiting from colonialism is evil and evil is never a valid
choice. If you're not a complete sack of **** of a person,
surely you will at least feel as if you have no alternative.
Invalidating the **** you get for doing the right thing, may it
not quite be the same as for those who never had a choice in the
first place, or even implying that you yourself are evil for it
(e.g. by calling you an identitarian) isn't fair.
In the Ukrainian case specifically, there is another dimension.
"Russian"/"White Russian"/"Little Russian" all imply a certain
genealogy, namely descent from the Rus'-people, meaning that
people without Rus'-ancestry aren't in principle eligible to
become Russians (Belarusians etc.).
"Ukrainian" in turn derives from a geographic term. "Ukraine"
goes back to either "Okrayina" (borderland), "Krayina" (region,
territory) or, as a more obscure take, "Oriana" (arable land;
from the verb "oraty", to plough, till; guess which etymology I
prefer 8)). Thus, "Ukrainian" doesn't imply a certain genealogy,
but simply means "person from the borderland/that particular
territory/arable land".
In this light, even if the Ukrainians voluntarily refused
integration with the Russians, this might have actually been an
anti-tribalist statement!
If all of this isn't convincing you though, there is still the
genetic vector:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/enemies/duginism/msg6026/?topicseen#msg6026
The Ukrainians appear to have some "Middle Eastern" and "North
African" (colonized language lifted from the quoted table, not
my vocabulary), i.e. non-"white" blood (possibly even carrying
some Aryan diffusion), which the Russians and the Belarusians
seem to be completely lacking (you will have to take my word for
the latter, as the full table is no longer on Wikipedia). Thus,
the Russians (and Belarusians) could possibly at least sense on
a blood memory-level that there is something "off" about the
Ukrainians and outgroup them on that basis, using any given
number of flimsy excuses to justify their outgrouping on a
surface level (say, they might accuse them of speaking with an
accent even if they don't etc.).
#Post#: 12665--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: rp
Date: April 9, 2022, 5:33 pm
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You bring up a good point. The Irish and Scottish nationalists
made it a point to avoid integrating into the "White" identity
and instead chose to identify with other victims of "White"
colonialism. In the United States, however, you had groups that
were traditionally considered "non-White" (e.g. Italians, Jews)
who joined their fellow "Whites" in oppressing other
"non-Whties" by identifying themselves with the "Whites".
You could argue that it was because the Italians and Jews were
"White" passing that they were eventually able to be accepted as
"White", and therefore even "White" passing people enjoy a
certain "privilege" over "non-Whites" in this regard. But note
that even "non-Whites" who adopt Eurocentric attitudes (e.g.
Chinese) are considered "White" by some "White" supremacists
(e.g. Arctic alliance advocates who believe Chinese and "Whites"
descend from the same ancestors), which at least suggests that
being physically distinguishable from other "Whites" does not
preclude that group from being accepted as "White".
#Post#: 12666--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: guest55
Date: April 9, 2022, 8:41 pm
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Italians have not always been accepted as "white" in the U.S.
and neither have Jews.
Anti-Italianism
--- Quote ---
> Anti-Italianism arose among some Americans as an effect of the
large-scale immigration of Italians to the United States during
the late-nineteenth and early-twentieth centuries. The majority
of Italian immigrants to the United States arrived in waves in
the early-twentieth century, many of them from agrarian
backgrounds. Nearly all the Italian immigrants were Roman
Catholic, as opposed to the nation's Protestant majority.
Because the immigrants often lacked formal education, and
competed with earlier immigrants for lower-paying jobs and
housing, significant hostility developed toward them.[1] The
established Protestant Americans of Northern European ancestry
aggressively displayed and acted upon ethnocentric chauvinism
and prejudice against Italian immigrants, especially in the
American South, the population there being overwhelmingly
Anglo-Saxon and Protestant. In reaction to the large-scale
immigration from Southern Europe and Eastern Europe, the United
States Congress passed legislation (Emergency Quota Act of 1921
and Immigration Act of 1924) severely restricting immigration
from those regions, but putting comparatively less restrictions
on immigration from Northern European countries.
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Italianism
The U.S. Government Turned Away Thousands of Jewish Refugees,
Fearing That They Were Nazi Spies
--- Quote ---
> In a long tradition of “persecuting the refugee,” the State
Department and FDR claimed that Jewish immigrants could threaten
national security
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/us-government-turned-away-thousands-jewish-refugees-fearing-they-were-nazi-spies-180957324/
#Post#: 12670--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: April 9, 2022, 9:59 pm
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"By emphasizing Irishness/Scottishness as opposed to
Britishness, you are refusing to benefit from British
colonialism"
Yes, but only because, as rp pointed out:
--- Quote ---
> The Irish and Scottish nationalists made it a point to avoid
integrating into the "White" identity and instead chose to
identify with other victims of "White" colonialism.
--- End Quote ---
"By the same token, by emphasizing Ukrainianness as opposed to
Russianness, you are refusing to benefit from Russian
colonialism."
In order for Ukrainianness to be equivalent to Irishness, I
would have to see Ukrainians being explicitly hostile to
"whiteness" in the same way as the Irish are famous for being.
Which is precisely why the recent stories showing contrary
tendencies are so discouraging:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/rightists-getting-leftism-wrong/msg12439/#msg12439
--- Quote ---
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HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/news/re-duginism-1134/msg11555/#msg11555
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HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/news/re-duginism-1134/msg12116/#msg12116
--- End Quote ---
The popular impression I get from Ukrainians is that those who
dislike Russians nevertheless tend to be Eurocentrists, but
merely exclude Russia from their Eurocentrism (but of course
include Ukraine). In which case, while they can be accurately
said to be refusing to benefit from Russian colonialism
specifically, they are not refusing to benefit from Western
colonialism as a whole. In this way the proposed equivalence
between Ukrainians and Irish falls through.
"In this light, even if the Ukrainians voluntarily refused
integration with the Russians, this might have actually been an
anti-tribalist statement!"
Only if Ukrainians also refuse (as Irish famously do)
integration with "whites" in general. But available information
suggests that it is integration with "non-whites" which is more
widely feared by Ukrainians:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Ukraine#Discrimination_against_foreigners
--- Quote ---
> Foreign students, of which there are some forty thousand, have
been among the principal victims of hate crimes. Small
populations of citizens and immigrants of African origin are
highly visible and particularly vulnerable targets of racism and
xenophobia. Although relatively few people of African origin
reside in Ukraine, the rate of violence against this group has
been extraordinary. African refugees, students, visitors, and
the handful of citizens and permanent residents of African
origin have lived under constant threat of harassment and
violence.[18] During the 2009 flu pandemic in Ukraine in
November 2009 the police of Transcarpathia asked the local
population to report every instance of meeting or communicating
with foreigners, The police explains that the reason for such a
request was "the worsening of the epidemiological situation in
Transcarpathian Region and the increasing risk of getting ill."
The Uzhhorod police removed the request from their website after
media drew attention to it.[20]
> ...
> reports and online footage surfaced of African and Indian
students who were attempting to escape the conflict being denied
entry onto trains and through the Poland border, with white
Ukrainian children, women, and men taking their spots. Reports
also claimed that internet users in Ukraine provided the
students false information so that they mistakingly present
themselves as Russian soldiers and risk
death.[42][43][44][45][46][47]
--- End Quote ---
It is possible to argue that the perpetrators of all the above
belong exclusively to the pro-Russian fraction of Ukrainians:
--- Quote ---
> Rights groups claim Ukrainian hate groups are inspired by
their counterparts in Russia. Russian skinheads help the local
groups, they say, sharing tips and video clips on how to attack
and torture their victims and how to safely leave the crime
scene.[40]
--- End Quote ---
but it will be harder to argue that Ukrainian refugees currently
in EU countries also belong to the pro-Russian fraction.
Therefore let us observe how they behave over time. Will they
feel solidarity with the "non-white" refugees also in EU
countries? Will they demand "non-white" refugees receive the
same good treatment that they themselves are getting? Or will
they, despite being refugees themselves, want "non-white"
refugees shut out? Time will tell.
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/news/karenism-(a-k-a-ethnic-profiling-by-civilians)/msg12197/#msg12197
#Post#: 12672--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: rp
Date: April 9, 2022, 10:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
"In order for Ukrainianness to be equivalent to Irishness, I
would have to see Ukrainians being explicitly hostile to
"whiteness" in the same way as the Irish are famous for being.
Which is precisely why the recent stories showing contrary
tendencies are so discouraging:"
I agree that present day Ukrainians are Eurocentrists, but I
think Dazhbog was specifically talking about the "Green Ukraine"
founders, whom we cannot accuse of being Eurocentrists for not
being hostile to "Whiteness", given that they were not in
contact with the original inventors of "Whiteness" (i.e. anglo
Saxons), which makes it impossible to say whether they would
have identified as "White" given the opportunity.
#Post#: 12683--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: Dazhbog
Date: April 10, 2022, 7:57 am
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--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
> The popular impression I get from Ukrainians is that those who
dislike Russians nevertheless tend to be Eurocentrists, but
merely exclude Russia from their Eurocentrism (but of course
include Ukraine).
--- End Quote ---
Ukrainian pop culture contradicts your impression to some
extent, as it noticeably draws on non-Western influence:
[spoiler]
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fLtqC2BqFo
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG5mjelR0NY[/spoiler]
The first video strikes me as significant in particular, as the
city against which it is set effectively merges Japanese-style
architecture and post-independence Ukrainian architecture
HTML https://www.skyscrapercity.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.skyscrapercity.com/attachments/1645309171826-png.2809698/.<br
/>Ukrainians seem to be identifying as non-Westerners at least
aesthetically.
Other supposed Eurocentrisms (such as the obsessive flaunting of
"European" in Ukrainian politics, see "Euromaidan" etc.) can be
chalked up to geopolitics. Integration with EU/NATO is the only
way Ukraine can secure protection against Russia's nuclear
stockpile after they had themself tricked (partly by the same
states they are now forced to ally with!) into giving up their
own stockpile.
Historically, Ukraine has looked to the Muslim world for allies:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/enemies/hungary-v4/msg5411/?topicseen#msg5411
--- Quote ---
> «державна
політика
України —
це
політика
Чорного
моря, де
Україна
перетинається
з
мусульманством,
і іншого
шляху
немає».
Таким
чином
Україна
стає
«природним
союзником
мусульманства
[...]».
>
> "The state policy of Ukraine is a Black Sea-centered policy,
where Ukraine and the Muslim world meet, a political path to
which there are no alternatives." Accordingly, Ukraine will
become "a natural ally of the Muslim world [...]"
--- End Quote ---
In the long run, this would have implied that the Ukrainian
People's Republic would have eventually also felt compelled to
side with at least the Muslim colonies of the non-Russian
colonial powers.
Then there is this:
HTML https://ukraineworld.org/articles/ukraine-explained/indigenous-peoples-ukraine-you-may-have-never-heard-about
--- Quote ---
> The indigenous peoples are Ukrainians (77.8%), Crimean Tatars
(0.5%), Karaites (>0.1%), Krymchaks (>0.1%) — the last three
originated in the Crimean peninsula, and Gagauzes (0.1%)
originated in Odesa Region.
--- End Quote ---
Doesn't it contradict the notion of Ukrainian Eurocentrism that
the non-"white", non-western Crimean Tatars are deemed an
"indigenous people" of Ukraine, whereas a number of "white",
western minorities apart from the Russians, such as Poles,
Hungarians, Romanians etc. are not?
--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
> but it will be harder to argue that Ukrainian refugees
currently in EU countries also belong to the pro-Russian
fraction.
--- End Quote ---
They might not be particularly pro-Russian, but what makes you
think they feel themselves particularly Ukrainian either?
Ukraine technically has the draft for females:
HTML https://thepressunited.com/updates/ukraine-to-draft-more-women/
--- Quote ---
> Women in a range of professions, up to 60 years old, will have
to register for the draft.
>
> Ukraine has dramatically expanded the number of women
potentially eligible for military service, adding them to the
pool of people who could be called up in the event of war.
>
> The country’s Ministry of Defense announced the news on
Wednesday, publishing a list of hundreds of professions whose
female members will no longer be exempt from registering for the
draft. The list includes a wide range of jobs, such as
accountants, librarians, secretaries, journalists, lawyers,
pharmacists, and veterinarians.
>
> The new rule will apply to women working in these fields who
pass medical qualifications and are between the ages of 18 and
60. Men in Ukraine are already required to register for
conscription at 18.
--- End Quote ---
It isn't currently enforced, but it might be in the future. Can
you figure out why so many females are eager to flee right now?
Can you figure out what this says about their attitude to
Ukraine?
--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
>
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/news/karenism-(a-k-a-ethnic-profiling-by-civilians)/msg12197/#msg12197
>
--- End Quote ---
Bernadette Devlin appears to be complaining about similar
attitudes among the Irish diaspora in America as well in this
image macro recently posted by @Zea_mays:
[spoiler]
HTML https://i.redd.it/8f2sgw8yhpo81.jpg[/spoiler]
To be fair, I can't produce a Ukrainian Bernadette Devlin as of
yet, so there we go. I can come up with Vasyl Maksymenko though:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/refugees-welcome/?message=12375
--- Quote from: Dazhbog link ---
> That depends. For sure, many Ukrainians are Russian-passing,
however, Ukrainians are commonly stereotyped as being visibly
darker than the Russians, so other Ukrainians may not be.
--- End Quote ---
Mining that angle a little: I researched some "All-Russian
family"-propaganda. This is what I came up with:
[spoiler]
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8.jpg
(Ukraine is on the left)
HTML https://proza.ru/pics/2019/12/20/1342.jpg
(Ukraine is on the left)
HTML https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%8C-%D0%BC%D1%83%D0%B6%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B-%D0%B8-%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B-%D0%B2-%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC-%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C%D0%B5-191634540.jpg[/spoiler]
The characters meant to represent Ukraine consistently stick out
in terms of appearance, even when the characters meant to depict
Belarus do not. So Russians definitely at least think they can
physically distinguish Russians and Belarusians on the one hand
and Ukrainians on the other hand.
#Post#: 12713--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: April 11, 2022, 2:50 am
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"It isn't currently enforced, but it might be in the future. Can
you figure out why so many females are eager to flee right now?
Can you figure out what this says about their attitude to
Ukraine?"
By my statement:
--- Quote ---
> it will be harder to argue that Ukrainian refugees currently
in EU countries also belong to the pro-Russian fraction
--- End Quote ---
I did not mean that those who flee can be expected to be less
pro-Russian than who do not. I meant that those who flee into EU
countries can be expected to be less pro-Russian than those who
flee into Russia. This is why I specified "Ukrainian refugees
currently in EU countries".
#Post#: 12898--------------------------------------------------
Re: Aryanism's hostility towards Russia and Eastern European
people
DIR By: Blue Kumul
Date: April 19, 2022, 2:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"The popular impression I get from Ukrainians is that those who
dislike Russians nevertheless tend to be Eurocentrists, but
merely exclude Russia from their Eurocentrism (but of course
include Ukraine)."
Polish nationalists are exactly the same:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feliks_Koneczny
BTW is your use of "Turanian" to mean "East Slavic" influenced
by Koneczny?
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