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#Post#: 12518--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: April 5, 2022, 10:12 pm
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"would you then have preferred Russian colonial rule to continue
instead?"
As much as I dislike Russia, at least Russia-ruled Outer
Manchuria at that time was not an explicit ethnostate, whereas
Green Ukraine was planned as one. Therefore between only these
two-options, I would prefer Russian colonial rule (though still
seeking to overthrow it).
Of course, once Russia established the:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast
it ceased to have any moral high ground over Green Ukraine.
#Post#: 12536--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: Dazhbog
Date: April 6, 2022, 6:38 pm
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--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
> Russia-ruled Outer Manchuria at that time was not an explicit
ethnostate, whereas Green Ukraine was planned as one.
--- End Quote ---
I assume it's this passage from Wikipedia that brings you to
that conclusion:
--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
> Far Eastern areas with an ethnic Ukrainian majority attempted
to secede and establish an entity called Green Ukraine.
--- End Quote ---
What makes you think the goal was the establishment of an
ethnostate and not simply to get rid of the Russians?
Ukrainianness is constructed against Russianness (as well as
some other colonial identities). There is nothing in and of
itself to suggest exclusivity in relation to other ethnic
groups. I've actually made a post on that a while ago:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/enemies/hungary-v4/msg5411/#msg5411
--- Quote ---
> Усі люди —
твої
браття,
але
москалі,
ляхи, угри,
румуни та
жиди — се
вороги
нашого
народу [...]
>
> All people are your brothers, but the 'Muscovites' (Russians),
'Lechites' (Poles), Hungarians, Romanians and Jews are enemies
of our people [...]
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 12539--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: April 6, 2022, 8:24 pm
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"What makes you think the goal was the establishment of an
ethnostate and not simply to get rid of the Russians?"
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/diplomatic-decolonization/msg12075/#msg12075
--- Quote ---
> In 1882 free transportation was announced for settlers to the
area from Ukraine and free land was offered to settlers.
--- End Quote ---
Why only for settlers from Ukraine? If the goal was purely to
attract labour to reinforce the new state against potential
Russian re-invasion, settlers from Russia's other enemies
(especially China and Japan) should be just as welcome? Indeed,
if as you claim Green Ukraine did not care about the ethnicity
of settlers, doesn't Ukraine seem a rather distant location from
which to selectively attract settlers?
#Post#: 12576--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: Dazhbog
Date: April 7, 2022, 3:50 am
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--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
> Why only for settlers from Ukraine? If the goal was purely to
attract labour to reinforce the new state against potential
Russian re-invasion, settlers from Russia's other enemies
(especially China and Japan) should be just as welcome? Indeed,
if as you claim Green Ukraine did not care about the ethnicity
of settlers, doesn't Ukraine seem a rather distant location from
which to selectively attract settlers?
--- End Quote ---
The settlement policy dates from 1882. According to Wikipedia,
"Green Ukraine" didn't try to secede until 1920, so the "Green
Ukrainians" couldn't have been the ones enacting this policy.
Heck, if I understood the article in question correctly, there
weren't any Ukrainians in Outer Manchuria at all before 1882,
who could have theoretically enacted such a policy even with the
projected future goal of establishing a "Green Ukrainian"
ethnostate. It was thus necessarily a Russian policy, so it
clearly can't have been Ukrainian ethnonepotism. Accordingly,
you will have to ask the Russians for the true underlying
reason.
#Post#: 12578--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: April 7, 2022, 4:48 am
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"The settlement policy dates from 1882. According to Wikipedia,
"Green Ukraine" didn't try to secede until 1920, so the "Green
Ukrainians" couldn't have been the ones enacting this policy."
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#History
--- Quote ---
> Individual efforts supported the emigration of groups of Jews
to Palestine, pre-Zionist Aliyah, even before 1897, the year
considered as the start of practical Zionism.[72]
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence
--- Quote ---
> The Israeli Declaration of Independence,[a] formally the
Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel (Hebrew:
הכרזה על
הקמת מדינת
ישראל), was proclaimed on 14 May
1948
--- End Quote ---
By your logic, Jews couldn't have been the ones funding Aliyah
because Aliyah predated the Israeli Declaration of Independence?
"It was thus necessarily a Russian policy"
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Ottoman_Palestine_(1881%E2%80%931914)
--- Quote ---
> The Jews immigrating arrived in groups that had been
assembled, or recruited.
--- End Quote ---
By your logic, it was necessarily the Ottomans doing the
assembling and recruiting of Jews?
"there weren't any Ukrainians in Outer Manchuria at all before
1882, who could have theoretically enacted such a policy even
with the projected future goal of establishing a "Green
Ukrainian" ethnostate."
I read it to mean that they were being offered free tickets by
Green Ukraine planners in Ukraine to travel to Outer Machuria,
rather than being reimbursed after arriving.
For comparison:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Zionist_Congress
--- Quote ---
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> 6
> 7
> 8
Netherlands
> 9
> 10
> 11
> 12
Vary), Czechoslovakia
> 13
Vary), Czechoslovakia
> 14
Austria
> 15
Switzerland
> 16
Switzerland
> 17
Switzerland
> 18
Czechoslovakia
> 19
Switzerland
> 20
> 21
> 22
Switzerland
> 23
--- End Quote ---
Thee guys did not have to be in Palestine themselves for the
first 22 congresses to successfully promote Aliyah.
#Post#: 12579--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: Dazhbog
Date: April 7, 2022, 5:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
> I read it to mean that they were being offered free tickets by
Green Ukraine planners in Ukraine to travel to Outer Machuria,
rather than being reimbursed after arriving.
--- End Quote ---
What makes you think any supposed planners in Ukraine were
specifically planning a Ukrainian state (ethnostate or not) in
the first place? I read the settlement policy as a Russian
attempt to demographically reinforce the Russian and Cossack
colonizers that eventually backfired when the supposedly "Little
Russian" (the official Russian term for Ukrainians back then)
flag bearers of the Russian colonial empire assumed to be docile
subjects started to embrace Ukrainianness instead, became aware
of their own colonization and turned on the Russians.
--- Quote from: rp link ---
> But did the Ukrainians have the intent of returning the
territory to it's original owners?
--- End Quote ---
Their leader Yuri Hlushko-Mova might have at least had the
intention to give Outer Manchuria to Japan:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Hlushko-Mova
--- Quote ---
> Accused of anti-Soviet activities and "designs to split Far
East from Russia and give it to Japan", Hlushko was sentenced in
Chita in 1924 to 5 years imprisonment.
--- End Quote ---
Based on his phenotype (except the terrible hairline of course),
I am willing to believe the charge:
[spoiler]
HTML http://www.istpravda.com.ua/images/doc/1/b/1bdbc33-140.jpg
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Yuri_Mova.jpg[/spoiler]
#Post#: 12591--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: April 7, 2022, 8:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
"What makes you think any supposed planners in Ukraine were
specifically planning a Ukrainian state (ethnostate or not) in
the first place?"
We covered this here:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/diplomatic-decolonization/msg12539/#msg12539
"I read the settlement policy as a Russian attempt to
demographically reinforce the Russian and Cossack colonizers
that eventually backfired when the supposedly "Little Russian"
(the official Russian term for Ukrainians back then) flag
bearers of the Russian colonial empire assumed to be docile
subjects started to embrace Ukrainianness instead, became aware
of their own colonization and turned on the Russians."
Wait. How could Ukrainians be validly considered to have been
colonized if, as you yourself claim here, Russians viewed them
as just another group of Russians (at least enough to see them
as demographic reinforcements rather than demographic threats*)?
You seem to actually be describing Ukrainian identitarians in
opposition to a Russia that would like to integrate them.
#Post#: 12603--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: Dazhbog
Date: April 8, 2022, 5:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
> How could Ukrainians be validly considered to have been
colonized if, as you yourself claim here, Russians viewed them
as just another group of Russians (at least enough to see them
as demographic reinforcements rather than demographic threats*)?
--- End Quote ---
I expressed myself awkwardly. Have you ever compared the
Ukrainian settlement patterns on the map you provided in your
original post with Russian settlement patterns?
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/EthnicRussiansInTheFormerUSSR.png
The Ukrainians are almost exclusively settled along the border
of the Russian-occupied territories with non-Russian-occupied
territories, whereas the Russians tend to settle deeper into the
heartland.
On the one hand, the Ukrainians are to act as a barrier against
possible military threats, buying the Russians time to prepare
their defense and minimizing their own losses.
On the other hand, the Ukrainian settlement area to my knowledge
corresponds to the most arable soil in the Russian-occupied
territories. In other words, the Ukrainians are supposed to feed
the Russians while the Russians get to exploit the resources in
the heartland.
This is what I meant by "demographic reinforcements". They are
not supposed to bolster Russian demographics by settling to
reproduce themselves, but by keeping the Russians able to
reproduce through their labor etc.
--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
> a Russia that would like to integrate them.
--- End Quote ---
If they want to integrate them, why call them "Little Russians"
and themselves "Great Russians"? Why aren't they all simply
"Russians"? You could argue that this is because the "Great
Russians" settle a larger territory and are more numerous than
the Ukrainians are. Fair enough, but the Belarusians ("White
Russians") are also a part of the "All-Russian family" and they
are even less numerous and live on an even smaller territory
than the Ukrainians!
Actually, the Belarusians should be referred to as "Little
Russians" on these grounds. Instead, they get qualified by
geography. 'White' according to old Slavic custom means
'western' (as in the geographic direction), so the Belarusians
are technically called "Western Russians" as per the
"All-Russian" vocabulary... which doesn't make any **** sense
either, as the Ukrainian western border actually lies even
farther to the west than the Belarusian western border (compare
the map above)!
So why are they called "Little Russians" and not at least
"Southern Russians" or something like that? Because they are
subordinate to the "Great Russians" (and arguably the "Western
Russians" too, whose name may not suggest parity with the "Great
Russians", but at least superiority over the "Little Russians"
by virtue of not being "little" themselves).
So no, the fact that they are called "Little Russians" does not
indicate a will to integrate them, as they aren't actually seen
as the same as the "Great Russians" or even the Belarusians.
--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
> We covered this here:
>
>
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/diplomatic-decolonization/msg12539/#msg12539
--- End Quote ---
Against the backdrop of what I have written above: recruiting
settlers from Ukraine makes sense from a Russian point of view,
as they are similar enough to the Russian colonizers (in terms
of religion, language group etc.) to be expected to side with
them over the "Inorodtsy" as they would have struck the Russians
as being fairly unaware of their own colonization at the time
(Ukrainian nationalism was still pretty far from mainstream in
the 1880s), but expendable enough to be used as a barrier
against military threats as well as an exploitable workforce to
feed the Russian colonizers.
#Post#: 12642--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: April 8, 2022, 11:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Are most Russians able to distinguish a Ukrainian from a Russian
by physical appearance alone? To put it another way, can
Ukrainians who abandon Ukrainian language and use Russian
language pass as Russian?
What I'm trying to figure out is whether it's Russians barring
Ukrainians who want to integrate from doing so, or Ukrainians
emphasizing Ukrainian distinctiveness in order to avoid becoming
integrated.
#Post#: 12645--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Diplomatic decolonization
DIR By: guest55
Date: April 9, 2022, 12:35 am
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Wouldn't it be more difficult to know the answer to your
question now whilst the war is still hot considering Ukrainians
seem determined to resist Russia at all costs? Furthermore,
captured Ukrainians are being shipped to "filtration camps" deep
in Russia and I don't think integration into Russian society for
these captives is part of the plan? I could be mistaken about
this obviously....
US calls out 'credible reports' of Putin's forces herding
Ukrainians to 'filtration camps,' then into Russia
--- Quote ---
> Tens of thousands of Ukrainians from Mariupol forced to
relocate to Russia, US official says
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-forcing-ukrainians-filtration-camps-relocate-us-ambassador-united-nations
Hundreds of Ukrainians forcibly deported to Russia, say Mariupol
women
--- Quote ---
> Troops ordered women and children on to buses and sent them to
‘filtration camps’, according to witness accounts
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/04/hundreds-of-ukrainians-forcibly-deported-to-russia-say-mariupol-women
But, I do not see why most Ukrainians could not pass for Russian
if they really wanted to?
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