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#Post#: 11184--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Revisionism of WWI and WWII
DIR By: Zea_mays
Date: February 10, 2022, 2:32 am
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See also this quote from Otto Wagener where Hitler discusses
forming alliances with "the millions of the African, Indian, and
yellow peoples."
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/national-socialism-is-revolutionary-not-reactionary/msg11183/#msg11183
#Post#: 12001--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Revisionism of WWI and WWII
DIR By: Zea_mays
Date: March 14, 2022, 1:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
In the news recently, plenty of Westerners are outraged that
Russia has killed a few thousand Ukrainian civilians in
'indiscriminate' attacks.
Of course, barely any of them cared when millions of people in
Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc. faced the same fate. Or when this
happened:
--- Quote ---
> On the night of 9/10 March 1945, the United States Army Air
Forces (USAAF) conducted a devastating firebombing raid on
Tokyo, the Japanese capital city. This attack was code-named
Operation Meetinghouse by the USAAF and is known as the Great
Tokyo Air Raid in Japan.[1] Bombs dropped from 279 Boeing B-29
Superfortress heavy bombers burned out much of eastern Tokyo.
More than 90,000 and possibly over 100,000 Japanese people were
killed, mostly civilians, and one million were left homeless,
making it the most destructive single air attack in human
history.
>
> The attack on Tokyo was an intensification of the air raids on
Japan which had begun in June 1944. Prior to this operation, the
USAAF had focused on a precision bombing campaign against
Japanese industrial facilities. These attacks were generally
unsuccessful, which contributed to the decision to shift to
firebombing. The operation during the early hours of 10 March
was the first major firebombing raid against a Japanese city,
and the USAAF units employed significantly different tactics
from those used in precision raids, including bombing by night
with the aircraft flying at low altitudes. The extensive
destruction caused by the raid led to these tactics becoming
standard for the USAAF's B-29s until the end of the war.
>
> There has been a long-running debate over the morality of the
10 March firebombing of Tokyo. The raid is often cited as a key
example in criticism of the Allies' strategic bombing campaigns,
with many historians and commentators arguing that it was not
acceptable for the USAAF to deliberately target civilians
> [...]
> USAAF planners began assessing the feasibility of a
firebombing campaign against Japanese cities in 1943. Japan's
main industrial facilities were vulnerable to such attacks as
they were concentrated in several large cities, and a high
proportion of production took place in homes and small factories
in urban areas. The planners estimated that incendiary bomb
attacks on Japan's six largest cities could cause physical
damage to almost 40 percent of industrial facilities and result
in the loss of 7.6 million man-months of labor. It was also
estimated that these attacks would kill over 500,000 people,
render about 7.75 million homeless and force almost 3.5 million
to be evacuated.
> [...]
> Their M47 bombs rapidly started fires in an X shape, which was
used to direct the attacks for the remainder of the force. Each
of XXI Bomber Command's wings and their subordinate groups had
been briefed to attack different areas within the X shape to
ensure that the raid caused widespread damage.[82] As the fires
expanded, the American bombers spread out to attack unaffected
parts of the target area.[52] Power's B-29 circled Tokyo for 90
minutes, with a team of cartographers who were assigned to him
mapping the spread of the fires.[83]
> [...]
> Some American airmen also needed to use oxygen masks when the
odor of burning flesh entered their aircraft.[85]
> [...]
> Escape frequently proved impossible, as smoke reduced
visibility to just a few feet and roads were rapidly cut by the
fires.[99][102] Crowds of civilians often panicked as they
rushed towards the perceived safety of canals, with those who
fell being crushed to death.[104] The majority of those killed
in the raid died while trying to evacuate.[105] In many cases
entire families were killed.[97] One of the most deadly
incidents occurred when the full bomb load of a B-29 landed in a
crowd of civilians crossing the Kototoi Bridge over the Sumida
River causing hundreds of people to be burned to death.[106]
> [...]
> The survey also stated that the majority of the casualties
were women, children and elderly people.[98] Frank wrote in 1999
that historians generally believe that there were between 90,000
and 100,000 fatalities, but some argue that the number was much
higher.[34] For instance, Edwin P. Hoyt stated in 1987 that
200,000 people had been killed and in 2009 Mark Selden wrote
that the number of deaths may have been several times the
estimate of 100,000 used by the Japanese and United States
Governments.[112][115]
> [...]
> Few concerns were raised in the United States during the war
about the morality of the 10 March attack on Tokyo or the
firebombing of other Japanese cities.[126] These tactics were
supported by the majority of decision-makers and American
civilians.
> [...]
> When the Japanese Government's official broadcaster Radio
Tokyo reported the attack it was labeled "slaughter
bombing".[95]
> [...]
> From 11 May until the end of the war the B-29s conducted day
precision bombing attacks when weather conditions were
favorable, and night firebombing raids against cities at all
other times.[145] Further incendiary attacks were conducted
against Tokyo, with the final taking place on the night of 25/26
May.[146] By this time, 50.8 percent of the city had been
destroyed and more than 4 million people left homeless.
> [...]
> Some commentators believe that racism motivated the decision
to use firebombing tactics, in contrast to the USAAF's greater
emphasis on precision bombing in its air campaign against
Germany.[170]
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_(10_March_1945)
----
--- Quote ---
> He was then placed in command of strategic bombing operations
against Japan, planning and executing a massive fire bombing
campaign against Japanese cities and Operation Starvation, a
crippling minelaying campaign in Japan's internal waterways.
> [...]
> After retiring from the Air Force in 1965, LeMay agreed to
serve as Democratic Governor George Wallace's running mate in
the 1968 United States presidential election.
> [...]
> During the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, LeMay clashed again
with U.S. President John F. Kennedy and Defense Secretary
McNamara, arguing that he should be allowed to bomb nuclear
missile sites in Cuba. He opposed the naval blockade and, after
the end of the crisis, suggested that Cuba be invaded anyway,
even after the Soviets agreed to withdraw their missiles.
Kennedy refused LeMay's requests, and the naval blockade was
successful.[31]
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay
Wow:
--- Quote ---
> Operation Starvation was a naval mining operation conducted in
World War II by the United States Army Air Forces, in which
vital water routes and ports of Japan were mined from the air in
order to disrupt enemy shipping.
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Starvation
#Post#: 12002--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Revisionism of WWI and WWII
DIR By: Zea_mays
Date: March 14, 2022, 1:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
British plan to kill millions of Germans using chemical warfare
and kill millions more through famine. The plan was ready to be
deployed in early 1944 and to be implemented in the summer of
1944, but was only scrapped since the Allied invasion in France
was progressing rapidly.
They produced over 5 million poisoned 'cakes' which would be
dropped across Germany, poisoning cattle (and subsequently
poisoning humans who ate them), and then causing widespread
famine deaths for those not directly poisoned.
Without exaggeration, this is surely one of the biggest war
crimes of WWII? Even if they aborted it at the last moment. Read
the article, it's more disgusting than it sounds:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vegetarian
Meanwhile, what were those evil Germans up to? Oh, not
committing war crimes with chemical warfare... Also note
Churchill's barbarity:
--- Quote ---
> The Nazis Developed Sarin Gas During WWII, But Hitler Was
Afraid to Use It
>
> Even as his Nazi regime was exterminating millions in the gas
chambers, [lol] Adolf Hitler resisted calls to use the deadly
nerve agent against his military adversaries.
>
> Hitler certainly had the opportunity to use sarin in World War
II. The Nazis were actually the ones to develop the deadly nerve
agent—accidentally.
> [...]
> By the end of World War II, Nazi Germany had produced some
12,000 tons of the deadly chemical compound, enough to kill
millions of people. From early in the conflict, high-level
military officers pressed Hitler to use sarin against their
adversaries. But despite such pressure, Hitler declined to
employ it as a chemical weapon against the Allied Powers.
> [...]
> More importantly, perhaps, Hitler must have known that if he
used chemical weapons, his adversaries would retaliate in kind.
British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, for one, had long
argued in favor of the use of such weapons to shorten military
conflicts. “I cannot understand this squeamishness about the use
of gas,” he wrote in a memo in 1919, when he was Britain’s
secretary of war. “It is not necessary to use only the most
deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great
inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would
leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected.”
> [...]
> “In the event of the Germans using gas on the Russians…We
shall retaliate by drenching the German cities with gas on the
largest possible scale.”
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://www.history.com/news/the-nazis-developed-sarin-gas-but-hitler-was-afraid-to-use-it
#Post#: 12033--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Revisionism of WWI and WWII
DIR By: guest55
Date: March 14, 2022, 9:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Even as his Nazi regime was exterminating millions in the gas
chambers, [lol] Adolf Hitler resisted calls to use the deadly
nerve agent against his military adversaries.
--- End Quote ---
How can anyone write a sentence like that and take themselves
seriously? Do most people just write sentences and then just not
even bother to read what they've just written back to themselves
to make sure the sentence makes sense? Talk about cognitive
dissonance....
#Post#: 12066--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Revisionism of WWI and WWII
DIR By: christianbethel
Date: March 15, 2022, 10:10 pm
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--- Quote from: Zea_mays link ---
>
> Meanwhile, what were those evil Germans up to? Oh, not
committing war crimes with chemical warfare...
>
--- End Quote ---
What does the True Left board have to say about the various
Waffen-SS mutinies? Or the fact a US unit teamed up with a
Wehrmacht unit to fight a Waffen-SS unit?
#Post#: 12087--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Revisionism of WWI and WWII
DIR By: rp
Date: March 16, 2022, 10:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Downfall (2004) -SS officer (speaking to traitor Himmler)
ridicules Hitler as a "non-smoking teetotal vegetarian" (4:30):
HTML https://youtu.be/YQA6TK65iVM
#Post#: 12312--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Revisionism of WWI and WWII
DIR By: Zea_mays
Date: March 27, 2022, 1:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Yet another example of ethnic cleansing by the victorious powers
of WWII:
--- Quote ---
> Operation Priboi (Russian:
Операция
«Прибой» – "Operation
'Coastal Surf'") was the code name for the Soviet mass
deportation from the Baltic states on 25–28 March 1949. The
action is also known as the March deportation (Estonian:
Märtsiküüditamine; Latvian: Marta deportācijas; Russian:
Мартовская
депортация)
by Baltic historians. More than 90,000 Estonians, Latvians and
Lithuanians, labeled as "enemies of the people", were deported
to forced settlements in inhospitable areas of the Soviet Union.
Over 70% of the deportees were either women or children under
the age of 16.[1]
>
> Portrayed as a "dekulakization" campaign, the operation was
intended to facilitate collectivisation and to eliminate the
support base for the armed resistance of the Forest Brothers
against the illegal Soviet occupation.[2] The deportation
fulfilled its purposes: by the end of 1949, 93% and 80% of the
farms were collectivized in Latvia and Estonia. In Lithuania,
the progress was slower and the Soviets organized another large
deportation known as Operation Osen in late 1951. The
deportations were for "eternity" with no way to return.
> [...]
> Based on the Martens Clause and the principles of the
Nuremberg Charter,[8] the European Court of Human Rights has
held that the March deportation constituted a crime against
humanity.[9]
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Priboi
I wonder if the "Holocaust" narrative is simply borrowing its
stories from things like this:
--- Quote ---
> Compilation of deportee lists
>
> Special MGB representatives were dispatched to various local
offices of MGB to form operative staff that would select the
deportees and compile a file on each family.
> [...]
> Deployment of additional troops
>
> Due to the immense scale of the Operation Priboi, which
spanned three Soviet republics, considerable resources were
needed. MGB needed to assemble personnel, transport vehicles,
and communication equipment all the while keeping the operation
secret. MGB also needed to draw up plans for where the operative
groups to be deployed and how the deportees to be transported to
the railway stations.[12]
> [...]
> An additional 5,025 submachine guns and 1,900 rifles were
brought in to ensure that the operatives were sufficiently
armed. Telecommunications was a vital component to ensure smooth
running of the operation, thus the MGB commandeered all civilian
telephone exchanges for the duration and brought in an extra
2,210 MGB communications personnel.[15] 4,437 freight railway
cars were delivered. A total of 8,422 trucks were organised.
5,010 civilian trucks were commandeered and the remaining
vehicles were military origin, including 1,202 imported from the
Leningrad Military District, 210 from the Byelorussian Military
District and 700 from Internal Troops.[15] These additional
vehicles were stationed just outside the border of the Baltic
Republics in advance so as not to raise suspicion and sent in at
the start of the operation.[2]
> [...]
> Assembly of operative teams
> [...]
> A deportation of a family was carried out by a small
nine–ten-man operative team, which included three USSR MGB
agents ("troika"), two republican Destruction Battalion soldiers
and four or five local Communist Party activists who were armed
by the MGB.[15] ... Care was taken to ensure that the operative
team included at least one member of the Communist Party of the
Soviet Union or Komsomol to act as an ideological supervisors of
the team.[13]
> [...]
> Round up of families
> On average, each operative team was assigned three to four
specific families they needed to deport.[13] After locating the
assigned farm, the team was to search the premises, identify all
residents, and complete their files.
> [...]
> As the people had already experienced mass deportations, they
knew the signs (such as arrival of fresh troops and vehicles)
and attempted to hide.[18] Therefore, the Soviets set up
ambushes, tracked down and interrogated relatives, carried out
mass identity documents checks, etc. Against regulations, MGB
operatives would deliver children without parents to the train
stations hoping that the parents would voluntarily show up.[13]
Not all fugitives were caught by such measures and later, in
Lithuania, smaller actions and deportations were organized to
locate those that escaped the first Operation Priboi in
March.[18]
--- End Quote ---
Here we go again, those railroad cars that Holocaust propaganda
tells us supposedly made Germany ruthless and evil--even though
all Allied nations used them in post-WWII ethnic cleansings...
--- Quote ---
> Railway transportation
>
> Once loaded onto the trains, the deportees became the
responsibility of the MVD.[12] The loading stations needed
special supervision and security to prevent escapes therefore
they were, if possible, away from towns to prevent the gathering
of deportee family members, friends, or onlookers. MVD also
recruited informants from among the deportees and placed people
categorized as flight risk under heavier guard.[12] The train
cars were mostly standard 20-ton freight cars (Russian:
Нормальный
товарный
вагон) with no amenities. The
cars, on average, fit 35 people and their baggage which means
about 0.5 square metres (5.4 sq ft) of space per person.[19]
> [...]
> On average, the train ride lasted about two weeks, but could
take almost a month.
--- End Quote ---
This ethnic cleansing was demographically targeted in such a way
to have maximum impact on the non-Russian ethnic groups being
cleansed. I've never heard anyone allege that the 'Holocaust'
was so precisely targeted!
--- Quote ---
> Some 72% of deportees were women and children under the age of
16.[2] Kruglov, the USSR Interior Minister, reported to Stalin
on May 18 that 2,850 were "decrepit solitary old people", 1,785
children without parents to support them, and 146 disabled.[12]
About 15% of the deportees were over the age of 60.[12] There
were people of very old age; for example, a 95-year-old woman
was deported from Švenčionys District, Lithuania.[23]
> [...]
> The deportees were exiled "for eternity" and no right of
return to their home,[3] with the penalty of twenty years of
hard labour for attempted escapes. 138 new commandantures were
set up to monitor the deportees, censor their mail, and prevent
escapes.[12] Deportees were not permitted to leave their
designated area and were required to report to the local MVD
commandant once a month, failure of which was a punishable
offense. The deportees were generally given jobs in kolkhozes
and sovkhozes, with a small handful employed in forestry and
manufacturing.[15] Living conditions varied greatly by
destination, but there was housing shortage almost everywhere.
Deportees lived in barracks, farm sheds, mud huts, or became
tenants of locals.[12]
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> Soviet deportations from Lithuania were a series of 35[1] mass
deportations carried out in Lithuania, a country that was
occupied as a constituent socialist republic of the Soviet
Union, in 1941 and 1945–1952. At least 130,000 people, 70% of
them women and children,[2] were forcibly transported to labor
camps and other forced settlements in remote parts of the Soviet
Union, particularly in the Irkutsk Oblast and Krasnoyarsk
Krai.[3] Among the deportees were about 4,500 Poles.[4] These
deportations do not include Lithuanian partisans or political
prisoners (approximately 150,000 people) deported to Gulags
(prison camps).[5]
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Lithuania
FFS, the Soviets began this ethnic cleansing before WWII even
began (and only months after the Soviets annexed the Baltic
states):
--- Quote ---
> The first mass deportation was carefully planned by the
Soviets. Already in late summer 1940, high-ranking Soviet
officials began hinting at planned mass arrests and
deportations.[12] NKVD began registering and tracking all
"anti-Soviet elements", i.e. people who were judged to be
harboring anti-Soviet attitudes solely based on their social
standing, political affiliations, religious beliefs, etc. In
particular, it targeted policemen, members of the Lithuanian
Nationalist Union, Lithuanian Riflemen's Union, various Catholic
organizations. In total, NKVD estimated that it needed to
register 320,000 people or about 15% of the Lithuanian
population,[13] which with family members constituted about half
of the population.[14] In preparation for the deportation, NKVD
drafted lists of people that would be deported during the first
campaign, identified their incriminating background, traced
their family members, and located their current residence. The
list was fluid and kept changing. For example, a report dated
May 13, 1941 identified 19,610 people that should be arrested
and deported to prison camps and 2,954 people (mostly family
members of those arrested) that should be deported to work
camps.[15] A month later, the numbers changed to 8,598 arrested
and 13,654 deported family members clearly indicating a policy
of eliminating entire anti-Soviet families.[16]
> [...]
> Ivan Serov issued instructions, known as Serov Instructions,
detailing how the deportees should be detained and transported
to the trains. The instructions emphasized that the deportations
should be carried out as stealthily as possible to minimize
panic and resistance. Each four-member executive group was given
the task of deporting two families.[18]
> [...]
> By 1944, Nazi Germany was retreating along the Eastern Front
and Soviet forces reached the territory of Lithuania by
mid-1944. In October 1944, Soviet officials, including Sergei
Kruglov who had experience deporting the Chechen and Ingush
people, began circulating ideas about deporting families of
"bandits" – men who avoided conscription into the Red Army and
joined the Lithuanian partisans.[26]
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serov_Instructions
Operation Vesna began in 1948 and Operation Priboi (the 1st Wiki
article in this post) began in 1949.
That wasn't enough, so the Soviets engaged in another major
ethnic cleansing operation in 1951:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osen
The 1941 ethnic cleansing operation also has its own Wikipedia
article:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_deportation
Wow, look at that, religion and cattle cars, two of the things
that are considered uniquely evil in the Holocaust narrative:
--- Quote ---
> Soviet deportations from Estonia were a series of mass
deportations by the Soviet Union from Estonia in 1941 and
1945–1951.[1] The two largest waves of deportations occurred in
June 1941 and March 1949 simultaneously in all three Baltic
states (Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania). The deportations
targeted primarily women, children and the elderly calling them
'anti-Soviet elements'. In addition there were deportations
based on ethnicity (Germans in 1945 and Ingrian Finns in
1947–1950) and religion (Jehovah's Witnesses in 1951).[1]
Estonians residing in the Leningrad Oblast had already been
subjected to deportation since 1935.[2][3]
>
> People were deported to remote areas of the Soviet Union,
predominantly to Siberia and northern Kazakhstan,[4] by means of
railroad cattle cars. Entire families, including children and
the elderly, were deported without trial or prior announcement.
Of March 1949 deportees, over 70% of people were women and
children under the age of 16.[5]
> [...]
> On 27 July 1950, diplomats-in-exile of Estonia, Latvia, and
Lithuania appealed to the United States to support a United
Nations investigation of "genocidal mass deportations" they said
were being carried out in their countries by the Soviet
Union.[28]
> [...]
> Russia's view
>
> The Russian Federation, the only legal successor state to the
Soviet Union, has never recognized the deportations as a crime
and has not paid any compensation.[15][39]
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Estonia
The Soviets were even ethnically cleansing people who had
ancestry from the Baltic states before the USSR annexed the
states!
--- Quote ---
> The Latvian Operation (Russian:
«Латышская
операция»,
Latvian: „Latviešu operācija”) was a national operation of
the NKVD against ethnic Latvians, Latvian nationals and persons
otherwise affiliated with Latvia and/or Latvians in the Soviet
Union from 1937 to 1938 during the period of the Great Purge.
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Operation_of_the_NKVD
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Latvia
It's curious that even with the strong anti-Soviet sentiment
that has dominated the US and its allied nations, the history
curriculum doesn't include any of the barbarity of the USSR that
far exceeds the ruthlessness which Germany allegedly displayed.
Even after writing other posts in this thread, I'm still
learning about new crimes:
--- Quote ---
> Mass operations of the People's Comissariate of Internal
Affairs (NKVD)[1] were carried out during the Great Purge and
targeted specific categories of people.
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_operations_of_the_NKVD
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_Operation_of_the_NKVD
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Operation_of_the_NKVD
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Operation_of_the_NKVD
(Against ethnic Germans):
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD_Order_No._00439
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Chechens_and_Ingush
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Kalmyks
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Bessarabia_and_Northern_Bukovina
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_settlements_in_the_Soviet_Union
Again, we are told that NS Germany allegedly exterminating
entire villages in occupied territory is something that made
them uniquely evil. Yet the Soviets did such things to their own
citizens:
--- Quote ---
> The Khaibakh massacre was the mass murder of the Chechen
civilian population of the aul (village) Khaibakh, in the
mountainous part of Chechnya, by Soviet forces during the
deportations of 1944 on 27 February 1944.[1][2][3][4]
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaibakh_massacre
Ever wonder why Russians had such a stranglehold on Crimea?
--- Quote ---
> The deportation of the Crimean Tatars or the Sürgünlik
("exile") was the ethnic cleansing and cultural genocide[c 1] of
at least 191,044[c 2] Crimean Tatars in 18–20 May 1944 carried
out by the Soviet government, ordered by Lavrentiy Beria, head
of the Soviet state security and secret police, acting on behalf
of Joseph Stalin.[11][12][13][14] Within three days, the NKVD
used cattle trains to deport mostly women, children, the
elderly, even Communists and members of the Red Army, to mostly
the Uzbek SSR, several thousand kilometres away. They were one
of the several ethnicities who were encompassed by Stalin's
policy of population transfer in the Soviet Union.
>
> The deportation officially was intended as collective
punishment[15] for the perceived collaboration of some Crimean
Tatars with Nazi Germany; modern sources theorize that the
deportation was part of the Soviet plan to gain access to the
Dardanelles and acquire territory in Turkey where the Tatars had
Turkic ethnic kin.
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars
Also see the previous post about other Soviet ethnic cleansings
and settler colonialism:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/western-revisionism-of-wwi-and-wwii/msg6582/#msg6582
No wonder so many people from the USSR volunteered in the German
military to fight the communists.
----
--- Quote ---
> My mother has a similar story - I've never asked for details
because it's still too hard for her to talk about it. I think it
was her grandparents who were deported. Upon returning some
years later, they found that the same soldier who removed them
from their home and shoved them on the train was now living in
their house. They never regained it.
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/tom6h7/73_years_ago_today_soviet_union_started_the/i26lxsh/
#Post#: 12313--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Revisionism of WWI and WWII
DIR By: Zea_mays
Date: March 27, 2022, 1:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Some old Ukrainians share their opinion that Russians today are
more brutal than Germany in WWII:
--- Quote ---
> Posad-Pokrovske, Ukraine (CNN)This is the final bus out of the
last position Ukraine holds on the road to Kherson -- the first
and only major city Russia has taken.
> [...]
> Sat in the back of the van, Vitali breaks down, using his
grimy, orange workman's gloves to wipe tears from his eyes.
>
> "Civilians! They killed all the people, these are bastards,
these are reptiles, parasites," he says. "They don't fight
troops, they fight people. Do you understand? Kill everyone.
Worse than the fascists."
>
> Next to him sits Viktor, who remembers the last time a war of
this ferocity came to this part of Europe. "Of course I
remember," he says quietly. "I saw how the Germans attacked us.
They didn't bully people."
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/21/europe/ukraine-russia-posad-pokrovske-mykolaiv-kherson-intl/index.html
Many people shared their family stories saying the same things.
Lol, and whenever someone brought up their story, all the
replies are, "well, you're wrong because you're forgetting about
the trillions of Jews." And all the Wikipedia links to the
alleged German plot to ethnically cleanse every single "Slav".
(Which obviously didn't happen if there are still hundreds of
millions of Slavs and countless people who sympathize with the
Germans over the Russians. And, besides, it was a plan first
developed by Marxist Friedrich Engels in the first place:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/national-socialism-is-revolutionary-not-reactionary/msg11178/#msg11178
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/national-socialism-is-revolutionary-not-reactionary/msg11179/#msg11179<br
/>)
--- Quote ---
> My grandmother remembers when the Germans came. She was just a
little girl then, and a few German soldiers stayed in her
village for a few months, probably while they waited for new
orders. They were very civil, never assaulted any villager, they
would go around the village looking for food to buy (chickens,
eggs, etc) and they always paid a fair price. My gran even
remembers being gifted hair ribbons by one sergent, who would
also swing her around. She used to call him "Rain". Then, one
morning they woke up and the Germans were gone. They had left
overnight.
>
> On the other hand, when Russians came, they raped and
plundered. In my country everyone thinks of Russians as rapists
because of all the women they abused here.
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/tko9ia/the_germans_did_not_mocked_people_like_that_cnn/i1s4dt9/
--- Quote ---
> My grandma's village in Ukraine was occupied by nazis and they
didn't touch the civilians. Imagine being worse than nazis lol.
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/tko9ia/the_germans_did_not_mocked_people_like_that_cnn/i1rp4pw/
(See the previous post about what the Soviets did to Lithuania)
--- Quote ---
> My grandfather who was born in 1930 in Lithuania often told me
that the German Nazis treated them so much better than the
Russians. This is a sentiment that lives all across eastern
europe.
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/tko9ia/the_germans_did_not_mocked_people_like_that_cnn/i1rz6i0/
--- Quote ---
> I remember my grandpa told me a story, that when he was a kid,
he lived near this small military airfield in a village, and
kids used to play there. When germans captured that area he said
that their soldiers were mostly nice and even gave chocolate to
children. But when the soviets recaptured that area they used
children as target practise with planes, not shooting them, but
shooting around and stuff.
>
> [quote]My Hungarian grandma said the same. She was out with
the animals and soviet planes strafed them occasionally.
> Her father was shot in the head by a soviet soldier for no
reason too.
>
> [quote]The reason was probably a little known fact that
Hungary invaded the soviet union
>
> [quote]So if you are invaded, you have the right to randomly
execute civilians when you win the war against the invading
country?
> Lmao
--- End Quote ---
[/quote][/quote][/quote]
HTML https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/tko9ia/the_germans_did_not_mocked_people_like_that_cnn/i1rsvs1/
--- Quote ---
> Doesn't surprise me, when I asked my Polish grandmother about
the German occupation she said that at least the Nazis had some
principles and rules they follow, while the Russians behaved
like headless chickens and no one was really safe from them.
>
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/tko9ia/the_germans_did_not_mocked_people_like_that_cnn/i1sm7xo/
--- Quote ---
> My grandparents during WW2 in Poland went from living in nazi
German occupation which then transferred to Russian occupation
at some point. People started begging for the Germans to come
back once they realized how awful the Russians were
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/tko9ia/the_germans_did_not_mocked_people_like_that_cnn/i1sb31a/
--- Quote ---
> This still won't change the minds of those who are reddited
beyond help. They need the nazis to be the supreme form of evil,
they won't comprehend nor accept the fact that there were and
are worse people and ideologies. This is what happens when
revisionism is rampant in schools and universities (mostly in
the West), and concepts such as nuance or context are not
explained or included in the process of teaching.
>
> Watching old people crying is heartbreaking.
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/tko9ia/the_germans_did_not_mocked_people_like_that_cnn/i1rsd9x/
Maybe some of these comments are fake or exaggerated. But if the
millions of personal anecdotes from "Holocaust survivors" (the
definition of which includes people born after WWII for some
reason) are considered historic records without question, then
surely random personal anecdotes from non-Jews are at least
equally valid.
#Post#: 12314--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Revisionism of WWI and WWII
DIR By: Zea_mays
Date: March 27, 2022, 1:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Do most people just write sentences and then just not even
bother to read what they've just written back to themselves to
make sure the sentence makes sense?
--- End Quote ---
If they think too much they might realize even Wikipedia
acknowledges how the US and other nations used certain gases as
delousing agents:
--- Quote ---
> 1917 Bath Riots occurred in January 1917 at the Santa Fe
Bridge between El Paso, Texas and Juárez, Mexico. The riots are
known to have been started by Carmelita Torres[1] and lasted
from January 28 to January 30 and were sparked by new
immigration policies at the El Paso–Juárez Immigration and
Naturalization Service office, requiring Mexicans crossing the
border to take de-lousing baths and be vaccinated. Reports that
nude photographs of women bathers and fear of potential fire
from the kerosene baths, led Carmelita Torres to refuse to
submit to the procedure. Denied a refund of her transport fare,
she began yelling at the officials and convinced other riders to
join her. After three days, the discontent subsided, but the
disinfections of Mexicans at the U.S. border continued for forty
years.
> [...]
> Between 1915 and 1917, typhus (which was sometimes reported as
typhoid fever) spread from Mexico City to the provinces from
Veracruz to Jalisco.[3]
> [...]
> During the same period, Thomas Calloway Lea Jr. was elected as
the mayor of El Paso, Texas. Lea sent telegrams to U.S. Senators
in Washington demanding a quarantine be put in place to stem the
tide of "dirty lousey destitute Mexicans" who would spread
typhus into El Paso.[7] The Public Health Service Officer for El
Paso, Dr. B. J. Lloyd, admitted there was little danger and
opposed a quarantine, but suggested opening de-lousing
plants.[8] U.S. officials quickly adopted a policy of sanitizing
Mexican immigrants at a disinfecting station in El Paso.
> [...]
> Men were separated from women and children into separate
buildings, where they were stripped of all clothing and
valuables. Most clothing and valuables were steamed. Other items
which might be damaged by steam (like shoes, hats, or belts)
were exposed to cyanogen gas. Attendants examined the nude
people for lice.[9] The officers conducting the strip searches
were rumored to have photographed the nude women and shared the
photos to others at bars.[11] When lice were found on a man, the
man's hair was clipped close to his head and the clippings were
burned. For a woman, the hair was doused in a mixture of vinegar
and kerosene, wrapped in a towel, and left on the hair for at
least 30 minutes. If lice were found on re-inspection, the
process was repeated. Once attendants declared the lice test had
been "passed", the naked people were gathered in a bathing area
and sprayed with a liquid soap made of soap chips and kerosene
oil.[9]
> [...]
> After the U.S. entered World War I businessmen were able to
lift the 1917 immigration terms for Mexican workers and the
exemption lasted until 1921.[24] However, the bathing and
fumigations, which later used insecticides and DDT, continued
into the 1950s[8] and in the 1920s, authorities at the Santa Fe
Bridge fumigated the clothing of Mexicans crossing into the U.S.
with Zyklon B
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Bath_riots
An earlier version of the article made the part about Zyklon B
more clear:
--- Quote ---
> The riots were sparked by the practices of the Immigration and
Naturalization Service, which required Mexicans to "strip naked
and be disinfected with various chemical agents, including
gasoline, kerosene, sodium cyanide, cyanogens, sulfuric acid,
and Zyklon B before gaining entry into the United States."
Zyklon B, (a trade name for hydrogen cyanide) was the fumigation
of choice for clothing and bedding on the U.S.–Mexico border,
and was later used in the gas chambers of Nazi Germany. Police
officers were also accused of taking and sharing nude
photography of Mexican women bathers.[1] A year earlier, 50
Mexicans had their bodies sprayed with gasoline and set on fire,
causing 27 of them to burn to death.[2]
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1917_Bath_riots&oldid=1011116009
Hmm, a few people in the US were burned and died from cruel
application of chemical delousing agents. It is easy to imagine
a handful of prisoners in Germany were similarly doused in a
cruel manner by certain guards, leading to their deaths, and
these stories were then blown so out of proportion that a
delousing agent used by the US and worldwide somehow became the
most deadly murder weapon ever created. Lol.
In particular, the Wikipedia article saying people were stripped
of their personal items that could be damaged by the sanitation
process sounds almost identical to the concentration camp
narrative. Obviously the prisoners are going to be scared and
confused and may not have any idea about how the sanitation
process works, allowing the "survivors" to just make shit up.
But these same sanitation processes were used outside of
Germany, and yet no one bothers to think that maybe...some
historic revisionism and sloppy sources have cooked up an
incorrect narrative... Hmm
#Post#: 12322--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Revisionism of WWI and WWII
DIR By: christianbethel
Date: March 27, 2022, 3:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
From The Waffen-SS Encyclopedia,
HTML https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/542101.Waffen_SS_Encyclopedia<br
/>pp. 260-264
--- Quote ---
>
> The Waffen-SS and War Crimes
>
> If issues such as the service of Germanics in the Waffen-SS
are complex matters that are easily misunderstood (See pages
84-180), this is no less true when studying the war crimes and
atrocities associated with that body. Both are subjects on which
much is sometimes presumed, often in the absence of solid facts.
Wartime and post-war propaganda has also clouded the issue, and
with this has come the desire of many, including many Germans,
to identify the Waffen-SS with the commission of war crimes, to
the exclusion, or near-exclusion, of other branches of the
German armed forces. There is a widespread assumption that the
men of the Waffen-SS were indoctrinated political soldiers of
one sort or another, with the precise meaning of this term
varying with the outlook of the user. This outlook, in turn, is
assumed to account for the greater proportion of war crimes
attributed to the Waffen-SS. Surviving records, however, support
Waffen-SS veterans' claims that political indoctrination was at
most a minor part of their training. Instead, indoctrination on
political, ethnic, and historical matters was handled by
National Socialist youth groups such as the German Youth and the
Hitler Youth. Membership in the Hitler Youth and its various
subgroups became mandatory in 1936, and was accompanied by state
efforts to shape the curriculum of schools and universities
according to National Socialist teachings. These processes
combined to influence a generation of German young people,
including the age groups born through 1928 who were called upon
to perform military service in the Second World War. The youth
influenced in this way primarily served in the Wehrmacht, which
during the course of the war increasingly meant the German Army
(das Heer) in particular. Throughout the Third Reich, the German
Army consisted overwhelmingly of German men, with ethnic Germans
and foreigners contributing only a small percentage of its
manpower. By comparison, between 33 and 50 percent of the
Waffen-SS consisted of ethnic Germans raised outside of Germany
and Germanic or nonGermanic foreigners. These were young men who
had not been raised in the atmosphere of National Socialist
indoctrination, and had not been subjected to the racial and
other poisonous theories of National Socialism. While some had
been subjected to fascist or other chauvinistic indoctrination,
few had been exposed to, much less professed, the course of
propaganda delivered by the Nazi organizations in Germany. Thus,
as an organization, the Waffen-SS possessed a smaller percentage
of young men who had grown up under the teachings of National
Socialism than did the Wehrmacht, especially the German Army.
Countering this, it may also be theorized that those German
citizens who did serve with the Waffen-SS tended to be
volunteers, and that these volunteers were likely to hold a
greater belief in the validity of National Socialist teachings.
Of course, there was a high percentage of young volunteers in
the German Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe, too. Thus, the Waffen-SS
cannot fairly be characterized as being comprised mainly of Nazi
fanatics, or of having soldiers who had been exposed to more
(or, on the average, even as much!) Nazi hatemongering than the
soldiers of the German Army. To explain the bad reputation of
the Waffen-SS, it is more useful to consider the impact of
political opportunism and the nature of anti-partisan warfare.
The elite SS armored divisions in particular were a compact,
easily recognized target even during the war, when they were
singled out for blame by the Western Allies and Soviets if
military reverses ensued. Sometimes, they were even blamed by
German Army commanders if operations did not produce the desired
results. Afterward, these units and others in the Waffen-SS were
identified as being culpable for war crimes, with few
corresponding accusations being made against German Army units,
even when such accusations may have been justified.
Interestingly, separate crimes were found for each of the first
eight Waffen-SS divisions, and for the sister divisions of three
of these. These incidents have sometimes received little study,
but are taken at face value and their few particulars are
repeated in countless works that rehash one another's content.
Specifically, the 1st SS-Panzer Division is associated with the
Malmedy Massacre; the 2nd SS-Panzer Division with Tulle-Oradour;
the 3rd SS-Panzer Division with Le Paradis; the 4th
SS-Polizei-Panzergrenadier Division with Larissa; the 5th
SS-Panzer Division with the murder of 600 Galician Jews just
after Barbarossa; the 6th SS-Mountain Division with the
destruction of Rovaniemi, Finland; the 7th SSVolunteer-Mountain
Division and 8th SS-Cavalry Division with massacres in their
respective areas of operations; the 12th SS-Panzer Division with
the murder of Canadian prisoners of war in Normandy; the 13th
Waffen-Mountain Division of the SS with, again, massacres in its
area of operations; and the 16th SS-Panzergrenadier Division
with the massacre at Marzabotto, Italy. It is not the purpose of
this piece to examine each case. It is essential, however, to
realize that most cases result from some previous atrocity
committed in violation of the laws and customs of war and were
often of an exceptionally heinous nature. In other words, they
were often a part of the pernicious cycle of cruelty that stem
from other, similar acts. Each must be examined individually and
closely before any opinion on the general nature of the
Waffen-SS can be considered to be well informed. Detailed study
reveals many interesting subplots to the various storylines. For
example, Fritz Knöchlein became a martyr in certain circles
following his execution for the commission of murders at Le
Paradis, because evidence exists that he had simply reacted to
earlier British war crimes. When Knöchlein is then given heroic
stature, however, the matter has been carried too far, as the
testimony of veterans and records in his file indicate that by
late 1944 he was considered a poor regimental commander and an
officer of unsavory character. In another case demonstrating the
value of continuing research—the burning of the town of
Rovaniemi, Finland—a late war memoir by a Finnish commando has
revealed that the town burned down not as a result of a
deliberate "scorched earth" tactic, but as a consequence of the
actions by his leader who blew up a German ammunition train
parked at the railway station. The killing in and around
Marzabotto in the autumn of 1944 is normally labelled an "SS
crime," yet the anti-partisan operation in that area was not the
sort of police action that was typically organized by German
police and/or security forces. It was actually a military
operation directed by the headquarters of the Luftwaffe I
Parachute Corps, which sought to remove threats to its rear area
supply lines. The extent and character of the killing in and
around this mountain village remains unclear to this day.
Somewhere between 700 and 1,000 civilians died there, depending
on the account one reads. However, which deaths were the result
of combat (plain-clothed partisans and collateral civilian
casualties), which were the targets of organized reprisals, and
which may have been simply murdered outright remain clouded in
controversy. Further, the situation is complicated by the fact
that the Emilia-Romagna region in which Marzabotto lies was
controlled by Communists at the time and for over 50 years
afterward. Clearly, no more venomous political enmity existed
than that between National Socialists and Communists, and as in
so many similar situations, truth is often one of the first
casualties. Investigations of allegations against eight members
of the Reichsführer-SS Division allegedly involved in the
killing at Marzabotto are actually still going on in Germany as
of the time this book was written! "Anti-partisan" becomes the
key term in so many of these cases, such as the incidents
involving the "Das Reich," "Prinz Eugen," "Florian Geyer," and
"Reichsführer-SS" divisions. Before casting judgment, it is
worth remembering that before and during WWII, reprisals
involving the civilian population in occupied lands were
tolerated as a last resort by the Customary Law of Nations,
including the principles of the socalled Martens' Clause in the
preamble to the Convention, that is, "the usages established
among the civilized peoples," "the laws of humanity," and "the
dictates of the public conscience." The right to take reprisals
against civilian hostages at that time was explicitly
acknowledged by the court of the seventh follow-up trial of the
International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg (1948). It was only
in 1949 that the Hague Convention Relative to the Protection of
Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August that collective
penalties, measures of intimidation or terrorism against
civilians, as well as reprisals against persons and taking of
hostages were prohibited (Article 33). According to the Customs
of War on Land at that time, then, not every killing of a
civilian by men of the Waffen-SS was a crime, even before the
question is raised about the killing of unarmed civilians
compared with those who had taken up weapons. In short, true
massacres, such as the executions at and the razing of Lidice in
the wake of Reinhard Heydrich's assassination (an incident
perpetrated not by the Waffen-SS but by Gestapo, SD, and German
and Czech police units), were never allowed under international
law, but some reprisals against civilians were. Since the
post-war Allied revision of the international conventions
governing this distasteful aspect of warfare, modern people
generally find such actions inconceivably reprehensible, but
such was not the law or the outlook during World War II. Even
the wartime (1940) US Army's Field Manual 27-10, The Rules of
Land Warfare, allowed hostage taking and reprisals against
civilians under some circumstances to "induce the enemy to
desist from illegitimate practices" (pp. 89-90). To get to the
bottom on those incidents, the nature of partisan warfare must
be considered. Such activity took place long before the Second
World War, and it has continued up to the time of writing, not
least in places like Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq, and Afghanistan.
When Axis forces operated in Yugoslavia between 1941 and 1945,
they became involved in a style of warfare that had existed
there for centuries, and which resumed five decades later in the
same regions. "Ethnic cleansing" had been practiced in the
Balkans at intervals for centuries before the Germans' arrival,
and has been continuing until very recently. The Waffen-SS, with
its associations to the German police and security forces, had a
substantial proportion of its units involved in anti-partisan
warfare, not only in southeastern Europe, but in the Soviet
Union, Italy, and elsewhere. These formations became caught up
in an unusually cruel and merciless cycle of warfare
characteristic of partisan activities as have some elements of
the armies of the wartime Allies in the years since. The results
are often disturbing and sometimes inexcusable, but not entirely
unique to the Waffen-SS. It is within the realm of anti-partisan
operations that the bulk of Waffen-SS atrocities can be found.
With this understood, it is important to form judgments based on
contemporary, not modern, requirements of the rules of land
warfare, and on the study of policies which involved German
military forces, and elements of the Waffen-SS in particular, in
counterinsurgency roles.
--- End Quote ---
*****************************************************
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