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#Post#: 3432--------------------------------------------------
Moral Consideration of Plant Life
DIR By: SirGalahad
Date: January 17, 2021, 3:37 am
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So I’m of the opinion that all life, including plant life, is
worthy of moral consideration. However, when debating with other
vegans, it was hard for me to explain exactly why compassion
should be extended to non-sentient life without devolving into
the circular reasoning of “Plants are alive, so they can be
killed. Killing them is bad, because they’re alive.” Most of
them made the point that all that matters is consciousness and
the capacity to feel pain and suffer, which is difficult for me
to argue against, since plants don’t really suffer in the same
way that most animals do. This question is more so directed
towards AS, since I know he extends compassion to plants. But
anyone else who feels the same way is allowed to voice their
arguments
#Post#: 3433--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moral Consideration of Plant Life
DIR By: Flutter9001
Date: January 17, 2021, 12:57 pm
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I don't particularly see plants as feeling pain, but I do see
restricting and certainly uprooting them as violent. I see these
things as violent because clearly the plant has its own goals,
turning towards the light, growing leaves where it wants to grow
leaves, roots where it wants to grow roots, etc. and by potting,
snipping, uprooting etc. plants we are getting in the way of
this. Suffering isn't necessary, in the same way
human/animal-slavery still disgusts us even if some people enjoy
being slaves and find it comfortable. That said I don't really
buy into the idea of plants not suffering, if I saw somone
sadistically pulling branches off a plant or petals off a
flower, I'd find that slightly upsetting and it would hurt my
view of that person.
However, I'm sure I don't feel this to the same extent as AS,
and I don't properly understand the extension of moral
considerations to the Earth itself which came up on the main
site, so I'm also very interested to hear other peoples answers
to this.
#Post#: 3439--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moral Consideration of Plant Life
DIR By: guest27
Date: January 17, 2021, 4:26 pm
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Murder is wrong because you're violating their autonomy and
callously desecrating their life. This applies to all living
beings. I feel that plants/fungi are sentient, I can sense their
happiness or suffering. No I don't have empirical evidence of
plant emotions/pain, I'm just an imaginative and sensitive
eccentric. Inorganic consciousness is also possible.
#Post#: 3546--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moral Consideration of Plant Life
DIR By: SirGalahad
Date: January 22, 2021, 1:57 am
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That’s all well and good, but “I can just sense their
happiness/suffering/sentience” isn’t good enough evidence to
justify the moral consideration of plant life, and all life
deemed even lower than plants by extension. The thing I’m trying
to prove to myself so that I feel confident in my own
convictions when debating with others on this topic, is that the
death of a plant means something, and that they aren’t simply
“biological machines” as many fellow vegans believe. I want to
be able to back up this claim, DESPITE the fact that they do not
feel happiness, or suffer, or possess a brain or nervous system
like we do, instead of trying to compare them to the rest of the
animal kingdom that do possess these qualities and justifying
their inclusion through an animalian, mammalian, or
anthropocentric bias. I also would prefer if the arguments given
were non-religious, since religious arguments don’t work on
people who don’t have a religious background
#Post#: 3548--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moral Consideration of Plant Life
DIR By: guest27
Date: January 22, 2021, 7:33 am
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--- Quote ---
> that they aren’t simply “biological machines” as many fellow
vegans believe. I want to be able to back up this claim, DESPITE
the fact that they do not feel happiness, or suffer, or possess
a brain or nervous system like we do
--- End Quote ---
There's no way to externally measure consciousness in others,
it's all self-referential presumption or empathy. Plants have a
kind of non-neuronal "nervous system", capable of processing
information and responding to sensory stimuli, and it's even
inhibited by anaesthetics. But it's not "the same as ours", so
how do we know it generates pain or consciousness? When is
someone "sufficiently similar" to us to warrant our compassion?
For that matter there's no way of truly knowing other humans
aren't simply biological machines, sophisticated mimics. If
one's going to be a cold-hearted skeptic they might as well be
consistent about it. On the other hand, if vegans are going to
presume even invertebrates such as insects and shellfish are
capable of distress, which again have radically different
nervous systems to ours, there's no reason they can't extend
this grace to all living organisms.
#Post#: 3558--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moral Consideration of Plant Life
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: January 23, 2021, 12:27 am
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"it was hard for me to explain exactly why compassion should be
extended to non-sentient life"
It is impossible to prove a negative. The burden is on your
opponents to prove the negative that plants are non-sentient,
which is impossible. Thus we should treat plants as if they are
sentient.
"Most of them made the point that all that matters is
consciousness and the capacity to feel pain and suffer, which is
difficult for me to argue against, since plants don’t really
suffer in the same way that most animals do."
Even if so, we should treat them as we estimate will cause them
least distress (and to alleviate them from distress due to other
causes if possible). It may be harder for us to make this
estimate for plants than for animals, but our duty to estimate
as best we can for each, and then act accordingly, is unchanged.
Similarly, people who are both blind and deaf cannot see and
hear the visual and audial signs of pain of an animal being
slaughtered, but it would be preposterous to deduce that it is
therefore ethically acceptable for blind-deaf people to use
animal products!
The point is, we should view any inability of ours to sense
plant suffering as our own deficiency in sensitivity, not as
grounds for presuming plants do not suffer.
"DESPITE the fact that they do not feel happiness, or suffer, or
possess a brain or nervous system like we do"
By the way, can you remember back to when you were a young
child, before you ever heard about "brains" and "nervous
systems"? Back then it was totally obvious that plants had
feelings just like everyone else. It was only after we were
taught about "brains" and "nervous systems" that we started
letting these notions affect us into doubting that plants have
feelings.
#Post#: 7274--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moral Consideration of Plant Life
DIR By: rp
Date: June 23, 2021, 11:27 pm
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"By the way, can you remember back to when you were a young
child, before you ever heard about "brains" and "nervous
systems"? Back then it was totally obvious that plants had
feelings just like everyone else. It was only after we were
taught about "brains" and "nervous systems" that we started
letting these notions affect us into doubting that plants have
feelings."
Exactly. Now that I think of it, learning about "brains" and
"nervous systems" soon affected me into doubting that insects
have feelings as well! Western education is truly spiritual
poison.
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