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#Post#: 3069--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: January 1, 2021, 11:49 pm
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[member=27]Emily[/member]
"you'd torture cats"
"Cats are"
You are doing it again. WHICH cats? You make it sound like if I
see one individual cat behave a certain way, I will treat a
different individual cat according to the behaviour of the first
one.
"My cats, among others, have tortured small animals."
Your cats deserve to be on the receiving end of the same
violence they have dished out to their victims.
[member=3]SirGalahad[/member]
"So can I get you on record saying that the core doctrine of
Buddhism is false, or at the very least you consider parts of it
to be, since you're requiring the concept of an eternal hell in
Aryan religion, where there is none in Buddhism?"
When Buddhism speaks of the six domains:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire_realm#The_Six_Domains
of which Naraka is one of the six:
--- Quote ---
> the hell (S: naraka, P. niraya) domain
--- End Quote ---
it is referring to six domains within kamadhatu which itself is
within samsara:
--- Quote ---
> The desire realm (Sanskrit: kāmadhātu) is one of the
trailokya or three realms (Sanskrit: dhātu, Tibetan: khams)
in Buddhist cosmology into which a being wandering in
saṃsāra may be reborn.
--- End Quote ---
Buddhists are trying to escape samsara. So there is no statement
in Buddhism that outside samsara there is no
(Christian/Mohammedan-style) post-Last-Judgement hell. I believe
there could be. Put the other way round, in Christian-Mohammedan
terms, samsara should be thought of as pre-Last-Judgement
existence.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Judgment
By keeping samsara going, the Last Judgement cannot arrive. That
is the plan of the Demiurge.
"all you could come up with was Avici"
I previously mentioned Avici only to establish whether that
level of punishment is fine with you.
#Post#: 3071--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: SirGalahad
Date: January 2, 2021, 12:45 am
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"I previously mentioned Avici only to establish whether that
level of punishment is fine with you."
And you continued attacking my views after I said that it was,
so I don't understand what your intention was
Also, you have to become a Buddha to escape samsara. Why would
someone who has achieved Buddhahood be sent to hell immediately
after? In addition, how can the doctrine of anatta, the lack of
a permanent, unchanging self or soul, exist simultaneously with
the idea that certain people are deserving of eternal conscious
torment as retribution for their actions? The traditional view
that people suffer until they've expended or atoned for all
their bad karma, makes more sense than eternal punishment for a
finite crime committed against an "I" that according to Buddhism
is illusory, and attachment to which is one of the causes of
suffering to begin with. The Buddha never spoke of, and refused
to speak of anything beyond samsara, including an afterlife. So
it appears that eternal punishment for a select group of
individuals wasn't integral to the message expounded by
Buddhism, nor was it considered necessary in order for victims
of violence to find peace and escape suffering via the Buddha's
teachings. And if that's the case, why does there need to be an
eternal hell supposing that a god does exist? This was clearly a
point of contention, since among Zoroastrians, it's believed
that hell itself is temporary, and all will be purified at the
end of time. Plenty of Gnostic sects did not believe in it
either
#Post#: 3073--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: January 2, 2021, 1:57 am
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"Why would someone who has achieved Buddhahood be sent to hell
immediately after?"
I am not implying they would be sent to hell. I am saying that
even those who deserve it cannot be sent there so long as
samsara continues running. That is one reason why samsara is
bad, and hence why the anti-samsara worldview of Buddhism can be
included within pan-Gnosticism.
"how can the doctrine of anatta, the lack of a permanent,
unchanging self or soul, exist simultaneously with the idea that
certain people are deserving of eternal conscious torment as
retribution for their actions?"
For example, you initiated violence yesterday and regret it
today. Your soul today is therefore not your soul yesterday, I
agree. But the violence you initiated does not become
"dis-initiated" (there is no such thing!) just because you
regret it now. So when we look at the entire trajectory graph
from outside, the initiated violence is still there.
HTML https://root.cern/doc/master/pict1_graph.C.png
The above graph shows impermanence if you look at the blue dot.
The above graph shows eternality if you look at the curve.
(Whatever happens to the Y-position of the blue dot at X>2, the
Y-positions of the blue dot at X<2 does not change because of
that.)
"The Buddha never spoke of, and refused to speak of anything
beyond samsara, including an afterlife. So it appears that
eternal punishment for a select group of individuals wasn't
integral to the message expounded by Buddhism, nor was it
considered necessary in order for victims of violence to find
peace and escape suffering via the Buddha's teachings."
He did say that by practicing following his teachings, you will
become aware of things that he would rather you become aware of
for yourself first-hand than be told about by him second-hand.
This could include becoming aware of the possibility of justice
outside samsara.
It is equivalent to if you ask me what is inside a locked box,
and I don't tell you, but I teach you how to pick locks, you can
use this skill to see what is inside the box yourself. And if
what is inside the box brings you peace, then you found peace
without me ever having needed to talk about what is inside the
box.
"among Zoroastrians, it's believed that hell itself is
temporary, and all will be purified at the end of time."
If so, why is the Demiurge trying to prevent the end of time
from ever being reached? The Demiurge's motivation only makes
sense if the conclusion is indescribably terrible for himself.
But the conclusion you describe hardly sounds worth the effort
to oppose!
#Post#: 3074--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: guest27
Date: January 2, 2021, 7:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> You are doing it again. WHICH cats? You make it sound like if
I see one individual cat behave a certain way, I will treat a
different individual cat according to the behaviour of the first
one.
--- End Quote ---
If you're torturing some cats, you're torturing cats, because,
well, they're cats. I don't always need to specify which cats,
we already covered that. The fact you're trying to make an issue
of this tells me you subconsciously recognize the inherent evil
of torturing an animal.
Also, you don't seem to have a problem when we generalize
'children are innocent'. Not all cats, children, etc. are even
sentient, but it's a fair presumption. I grant cats and children
equally, the presumption they are innocent, sentient, and
ingenuous.
--- Quote ---
> Your cats deserve to be on the receiving end of the same
violence they have dished out to their victims.
--- End Quote ---
You deserve to be free of committing cruelty to others and
experience inner peace.
HTML http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mYVfgiCAQ6M/URRY8H8flqI/AAAAAAAAAjs/kq57XNyw_Gk/s1600/PureLight.jpg
#Post#: 3129--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: January 5, 2021, 11:09 pm
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"they're cats."
"Cat" is a category unilaterally imposed by humans onto a group
of individuals who never consented to be labelled this way.
Therefore by looking at them as "cats" rather than as
individuals, you are forcing on them a group identity that they
themselves did not choose. That in itself is a form of initiated
violence if you knew anything about honour.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zao3t0V9Q2g
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVIbwE_eGK0
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD32j1QMTIA
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkBObiwQddc
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxHEYdSHHmA
All these video titles are actually incorrect. The reality is
individuals being allowed to live as they want, rather than
according to preconceived human stereotypes of how they (as
members of categories that humans classified them into) are
expected to live.
"You deserve to be free of committing cruelty to others and
experience inner peace."
Yes, I did deserve to be born into an existence where no one
ever initiated violence against anyone else. But I wasn't. I was
born here instead. That was the first violence initiated against
me.
HTML https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71YTeSAWG9L._SS500_.jpg
#Post#: 3154--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: Prite
Date: January 7, 2021, 2:39 am
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--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
>
> Yes, I did deserve to be born into an existence where no one
ever initiated violence against anyone else. But I wasn't. I was
born here instead. That was the first violence initiated against
me.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think it comes from the thought that has infiltrated original
Aryan religions about borning allows doing good things and
giving birth allows it.
#Post#: 3157--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: guest27
Date: January 7, 2021, 7:15 am
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--- Quote ---
> Therefore by looking at them as "cats" rather than as
individuals, you are forcing on them a group identity that they
themselves did not choose. That in itself is a form of initiated
violence if you knew anything about honour.
--- End Quote ---
I agree, but unless you're exclusively torturing cats who have
the duplicity of your typical adult human, my point still stands
(and if there were anything dishonourable about generalizing, we
can both cut our belly). My cat Kitara, whom I knew
empathetically as an individual, was absolutely pure-hearted,
despite her actions by which you wish to demonize her.
Speaking of which: Those you deem as "deserving of hell" are
likewise individuals who never consented (and never would
consent) to such a label. But if you treated people
empathetically as individuals, rather than "oppressors" or
"victims", you'd intuit the insanity and injustice of eternal
torture.
Do you find this acceptable? (I did not enjoy drawing this)
HTML https://i.ibb.co/F39m3VK/IMG-20210107-140950.jpg
--- Quote ---
> Yes, I did deserve to be born into an existence where no one
ever initiated violence against anyone else. But I wasn't. I was
born here instead. That was the first violence initiated against
me.
--- End Quote ---
Rather than rebelling, you're resigning to the conditions of
reality, despite disapproving of them. This is slave mentality.
#Post#: 3255--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: guest27
Date: January 10, 2021, 2:59 pm
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My superhero does whatever it takes to defeat evil once and for
all even if it means going back and preventing the cycle from
ever starting. He doesn't just offload evil onto someone else
and shrug his shoulders in his phony paradise.
I thought that's who you were. And I thought when I meet fellow
Aryanists they'd be kind, wonderful, free-thinking people.
Anyway...
HTML https://youtu.be/dtQ7n_wG_pE
#Post#: 3319--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: Ganbaru
Date: January 12, 2021, 2:54 pm
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"absolutely no retaliatory violence"
"defeat evil once and for all"
"going back and preventing the cycle from ever starting"
not sure wtf that even means, it sounds more like schizophrenia
than autism.
#Post#: 3338--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: guest27
Date: January 13, 2021, 3:43 am
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--- Quote from: Ganbaru link ---
>
> "absolutely no retaliatory violence"
> "defeat evil once and for all"
> "going back and preventing the cycle from ever starting"
>
> not sure wtf that even means, it sounds more like
schizophrenia than autism.
>
--- End Quote ---
Go back to your hole
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