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#Post#: 2882--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: guest27
Date: December 17, 2020, 2:13 am
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--- Quote ---
> If someone is being brutally attacked, the compassionate thing
to do, would be to put an end to the violence as quickly and as
swiftly as possible.
--- End Quote ---
But were physical force appropriate I shouldn't believe it to be
truly "violent". If it did feel violent I shouldn't perform it
no matter the consequences or external pressures.
The fastest way to end violence is to reject its very notion,
not in contrived denial but total resistance.
--- Quote ---
> Also, it's strange that you quote Savitri Devi when she was
specifically for an "against time" approach, rather than simply
being "above time".
--- End Quote ---
Savitri admitted the despair and materialism inherent in
resorting to violence, and that those "above time" are saviours,
albeit in the purely spiritual sense.
"the salvation which the men “above Time” offer the world is
always that which consists in breaking the time-bondage. (...)
It is the salvation of the individual soul, never that of
organised society. For the men “above Time” know fully well that
that cannot be saved before the beginning of a new Time-cycle"
"The saviours in the worldly sense of the word — those who set
out to perfect not merely men’s souls but men’s collective life
and government, and international relations — are what we call
men “against Time.”
"It (the paradise-dream) was great and beautiful when it was the
product of the yearning, imagination and logic of such an artist
as Akhnaton. The time had not yet come when wise men of his
spiritual class would either, in despair, turn their backs to
all manifestations in Time and choose the way of renunciation,
or else, fight with the weapons of violence against the downward
current of history — “against Time” — also in despair."
"the world was not yet ripe — not yet corrupt enough; not yet
visibly enough lost, — for a wise man, inspired with the dream
of earthly Perfection, i.e. with the dream of harmony between
earth and Cosmos, to feel himself “cornered” and, either to call
every manifestation in Time a thing of sin and sorrow and to
seek for Perfection in escape from the conditions of fallen
life, through inner discipline, or else, to stick to this world
as to his home, and to fight the increasing effects of Time in
the advanced Dark Age, and establish a State “against Time,”
#Post#: 2883--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: December 17, 2020, 2:40 am
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"Your solution to violence is to endlessly perpetuate it? Or do
"maximum possible punishment" and "hell" somehow not equal
eternal violence?"
Initiated violence is endlessly perpetuated by it having ever
occurred. If someone punches me in the face, I am not just
experiencing violence for merely the duration of the impact, nor
even merely the duration of the physical injury caused by the
impact, but forever, as I will always continue to have been
punched; I will never be able to live in an alternate trajectory
of existence where I was never punched.
Therefore retaliatory violence against the aggressor must also
be endless. This is why hell is a key concept in the religions
we promote. (This is also why hell does not exist in Judaism.)
#Post#: 2886--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: guest27
Date: December 17, 2020, 3:21 am
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--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
>
> "Your solution to violence is to endlessly perpetuate it? Or
do "maximum possible punishment" and "hell" somehow not equal
eternal violence?"
>
> Initiated violence is endlessly perpetuated by it having ever
occurred. If someone punches me in the face, I am not just
experiencing violence for merely the duration of the impact, nor
even merely the duration of the physical injury caused by the
impact, but forever, as I will always continue to have been
punched; I will never be able to live in an alternate trajectory
of existence where I was never punched.
>
> Therefore retaliatory violence against the aggressor must also
be endless. This is why hell is a key concept in the religions
we promote. (This is also why hell does not exist in Judaism.)
>
--- End Quote ---
Whatever you will, so it shall be.
I don't believe in violence. Not as a notion, not as a
condition, not as a possibility. Any potential of violence is
extinguished the moment I oppose it - which is always, and
forever; just as non-existence is disproven by existence and
vice versa. My very essence is a rebellion against violence. I
will rewind time itself.
#Post#: 2888--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: December 17, 2020, 3:25 am
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HTML https://i.imgflip.com/1urrrp.jpg
#Post#: 2889--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: guest27
Date: December 17, 2020, 3:45 am
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I'm perfectly aware of the conditions of reality. Keyword:
Perfectly. Not brutally.
Violence and freedom can't coexist -- so it comes down to this:
which one is more true to you?
Are you innocent, or corrupt?
HTML https://i.ibb.co/sm7Ym6v/IMG-20201217-210948.jpg
#Post#: 2890--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: SirGalahad
Date: December 17, 2020, 3:51 am
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--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
>
> Therefore retaliatory violence against the aggressor must also
be endless. This is why hell is a key concept in the religions
we promote. (This is also why hell does not exist in Judaism.)
>
--- End Quote ---
This is where I disagree. Nobody should be held accountable for
what they do while in the prison house of matter, because they
just as easily could have been someone noble during their
lifetime. And the idea of eternal punishment is even more
ridiculous from that angle. People who commit violence are
victims of the Demiurge and its creation like everyone else. If
a hell does exist, I'm of the opinion that God certainly
wouldn't wish it on anyone, and eventual salvation is on the
table even for those who are subject to hell. Our focus should
merely be to reduce violence by any means necessary. Torturing
our enemies is pointless, when a merciful death would do the job
equally as well.
#Post#: 2900--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: December 17, 2020, 2:53 pm
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"Nobody should be held accountable for what they do while in the
prison house of matter"
Then you are on the side of injustice.
"because they just as easily could have been someone noble
during their lifetime."
So the people who bothered to be noble in practice are no better
those who did not just because the latter "could have been"?
If so, why not do it the other way round? Everyone also could
have been someone ignoble during their lifetime. Why not punish
noble people because they could have been ingoble?
"People who commit violence are victims of the Demiurge and its
creation"
They were victims when they were subjected to initiated violence
(starting with being born). They became the Demiurge's allies
when they began initiating violence on others.
"like everyone else."
But again, some victims behaved better than other victims. Yet
you are saying that those who behaved better deserve to be
treated no differently than those who behaved worse. How is that
fair?
"If a hell does exist, I'm of the opinion that God certainly
wouldn't wish it on anyone,"
I would prefer no one existed who deserves hell. But I wish
everyone who does deserve hell to be thrown into it.
"and eventual salvation is on the table even for those who are
subject to hell."
The moment someone who deserves hell is taken out, their victims
are effectively put in hell instead, as injustice will have
resumed. Is that what you want?
And one more thing: one reason why the forces of the Demiurge
want to perpetually keep the material world going is in order to
indefinitely delay the arrival of the time when they will be
thrown into hell. It would be accurate to describe their
salvation as being ongoing right now (and potentially endless so
long as they keep winning). As such, why would you give them
another salvation on top of the one they are already continually
constructing (using more and more initiated violence to do so,
by the way)?
#Post#: 2902--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: guest27
Date: December 17, 2020, 3:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Everyone's trying their best. No one wants to be on the side of
evil. No one deserves hell. Stop sadistically punishing people
and focus on actually ending violence.
#Post#: 2903--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: SirGalahad
Date: December 17, 2020, 3:21 pm
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--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
>
> So the people who bothered to be noble in practice are no
better those who did not just because the latter "could have
been"?
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes. The entire point of Gnosticism is that we're all sparks of
light trapped in matter. I don't think anybody willingly chooses
to do evil. The fact that people do evil is all the more a
reason to reject the Demiurge's creation, which compels people
to act ignoble. Supposing that rebirth is true, who even knows
the kind of people we were in past lives? And supposing that
this is the only life we get, who knows the kind of people we
could have been, if we had been subjected to a far less
fortunate roll of the dice? Also, it doesn't really make sense
to assert that a soul emanated from the divine could be
inherently, and irredeemably evil, in of itself.
#Post#: 2917--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideal Methods > Natural Methods
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: December 17, 2020, 11:46 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
"The entire point of Gnosticism is that we're all sparks of
light trapped in matter."
But not all sparks of light react the same way to being trapped
in matter. That difference in reaction is what leads to
different behaviour.
"I don't think anybody willingly chooses to do evil."
Again, I could flip it around and claim that nobody willingly
chooses to do good. So should we now punish the good people
along with the evil people because we assume the good they did
wasn't really their own choice?
"who even knows the kind of people we were in past lives?"
We don't need to know. Once you start this line of thinking, you
are heading down the Vedic slippery slope where eventually you
will be telling victims of initiated violence that they are
merely receiving payback for stuff they did in past lives.
"And supposing that this is the only life we get, who knows the
kind of people we could have been, if we had been subjected to a
far less fortunate roll of the dice?"
We don't need to know this either.
You are advocating for a hypotheticalist worldview where no
matter what someone actually did, we are supposed to ignore that
and instead treat them according to what they might have done
otherwise. This obviously works to the advantage of those who do
the most evil and to the disadvantage of those who do the least.
Imagine what would happen if a sports referee used your
approach.
"it doesn't really make sense to assert that a soul emanated
from the divine could be inherently, and irredeemably evil, in
of itself."
We were all born as children. Does that mean adults do not
exist? (If adults really did not exist, no more children would
be born. So why do children keep being born?)
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