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       #Post#: 31993--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Abortion = Kindness?
       By: Aucontraire Date: January 19, 2026, 9:45 pm
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       [quote author=90sRetroFan link=topic=3339.msg31991#msg31991
       date=1768869267]
  HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/abortion-kindness/msg31946/#msg31946
       [/quote]
       Relevance?
       [quote]
       None of which I would do (or have ever done in the past).
       [/quote]
       I'm interested in preventing greater violence (which IS the path
       of least suffering, ultimately).
       If you would not commit the violence of e.g. swiping a button
       battery out of a baby's mouth in order to prevent them dying an
       excruciating death, then you very clearly are not.
       You are willing to leave them to a horrific fate just to keep
       your own hands clean.
       [quote]
       Where do I support this? Please post an exact quote.
       [/quote]
       "Wait for their instruction."
       This requires life preservation, which requires "repeated acts
       of violence". Your support is implicit, albeit temporal.
       #Post#: 31996--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Abortion = Kindness?
       By: 90sRetroFan Date: January 20, 2026, 5:10 pm
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       "If you would not commit the violence of e.g. swiping a button
       battery out of a baby's mouth in order to prevent them dying an
       excruciating death, then you very clearly are not.
       You are willing to leave them to a horrific fate just to keep
       your own hands clean."
       Or I could check the vicinity for dangerous objects and put them
       elsewhere before the baby arrives. Moron.
       ""Wait for their instruction."
       This requires life preservation, which requires "repeated acts
       of violence"."
       How?
       #Post#: 32001--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Abortion = Kindness?
       By: Aucontraire Date: January 20, 2026, 9:53 pm
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       [quote author=90sRetroFan link=topic=3339.msg31996#msg31996
       date=1768950631]
       Or I could check the vicinity for dangerous objects and put them
       elsewhere before the baby arrives. Moron.
       [/quote]
       What if you missed something? What if someone drops something?
       What if you're out and about?
       You're living in fairytale land.
       And you're ignoring the other examples I mentioned. I could
       easily list a hundred more examples of violence often necessary
       for "childcare". Not to mention all the animals killed to
       procure their food and clothes (even if they're plant-based).
       [quote]
       How?
       [/quote]
       I've just explained how, "illiterate".
       Birth is violent
       "Childcare" is violent
       Even just having to wake up is violent (note how often they cry
       upon waking)
       #Post#: 32004--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Abortion = Kindness?
       By: 90sRetroFan Date: January 22, 2026, 10:57 pm
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       "What if you missed something? What if someone drops something?
       What if you're out and about?"
       You are arguing that it is better to initiate violence
       (abortion) than to not initiate violence if following the latter
       there is a possibility - not even a certainty! - of greater
       physical pain (death by swallowing battery). Thank you for
       implicitly answering my earlier question: your priority is
       minimizing physical pain, not minimizing initiated violence.
       Applying the same argument, I suppose you would similarly turn
       on a painless poison gas to kill an already-born baby without
       their consent before they have time to perhaps swallow a
       battery.
       "And you're ignoring the other examples I mentioned."
  HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/abortion-kindness/msg31991/#msg31991
       [quote]None of which I would do (or have ever done in the
       past).[/quote]
       "Not to mention all the animals killed to procure their food and
       clothes (even if they're plant-based)."
       Hence my opposition to conception (for both humans and
       non-humans). I do not deny that harvesting crops statistically
       leads to some accidental animal deaths, and hence I agree that
       we should aim to reduce the supply of crops needed by reducing
       the demand for crops. But are you arguing that it is better to
       deliberately kill X individuals without their permission than
       for Y(>X) individuals to risk accidental death?
       "Birth is violent"
       Say this to pronatalists, not to me (an antinatalist FFS!).
       ""Childcare" is violent"
       Depends on the carer.
       "Even just having to wake up is violent (note how often they cry
       upon waking)"
       Whom you are blaming for this? Noisy people nearby? Or anyone
       who doesn't kill every sleeping baby they encounter?
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