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#Post#: 31001--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: antihellenistic Date: September 20, 2025, 1:23 am
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[quote][quote]"The incentive to engage in production activities
is the intention to address the problem of consumption needs
ethically experienced by consumers. With the hope that when we
are no longer workers in the field of producer management, we
will still be properly served by other managerial
workers."[/quote]
That has nothing to do with what I asked. You are no longer
debating. You have reverted to talking to yourself.[/quote]
What I mean is this: society’s behavior will not change merely
by being forced to pay taxes. They must also transform the very
way they produce, distribute, and consume. What was once carried
out through voluntary transactions must be reshaped into
transactions that are planned and grounded in ethical
considerations.
[quote][quote]"B made an agreement with party A"
"B and A can be absolutely blamed"[/quote]
You are initiating violence.[/quote]
Putting an end to voluntary economic transactions based on
market laws—so as to prevent deceptive labor contracts and the
exploitation of workers in the name of efficiency—is a form of
action that is inherently anti-violence.
[quote][quote]"if we want to act in a socialist manner, A, who
is able to earn money from gambling, must help B to obtain money
as well."[/quote]
So if A loses the $10 bet, must B give A $5?[/quote]
Of course, B, who has already become a fellow comrade in the
collective, must help A who has lost their 10 dollars, so that A
and B feel interdependent and mutually supportive in order to
ease life’s burdens and bring an end to prejudice between
individuals and between groups. The way an individual or a group
conducts their economic activities will also shape their
attitude and behavior toward others.
Economic activity based on individual ownership and the
uncertainty of market laws will produce behavior that is
aggressive, dynamic, innovative, and insensitive (the kind of
economic activity favored by Western people).
Economic activity based on collectivism and centralized planning
under ethical leadership will produce a society that behaves
with empathy, self-awareness, sensitivity, and attains a
definite goal of liberation.
[quote][quote]"Even better, if A considers that gambling causes
income uncertainty, A should end the gambling and have the money
that exists and circulates within gambling be reorganized so it
can be redistributed to people struggling with life, such as
B."[/quote]
If neither A nor B gamble, then A and B have $10 each. Why
should A give B money?[/quote]
If the scenario is one in which there is no gambling and both A
and B receive equally sufficient wages, then socialist life is
realized and there is no longer any need for acts of giving.
However, if one of them happens to experience a shortage, then
from a socialist standpoint, the one who is better off will
provide assistance to the one who is in need.
[quote][quote]"Bad behavior will never be right, even if done
voluntarily."[/quote]
Non-violent bad behaviour should be allowed (and arguably even
encouraged). This is how we find out who is inferior. If you use
the threat of violence to discourage non-violent bad behaviour,
you conceal who is inferior.[/quote]
People who still wish to conduct economic activities based on
market laws and voluntary transactions could, in principle, be
allowed to continue doing so—provided they do not interfere with
those groups and communities who wish to live outside of market
laws in their economic life. Yet this has never truly happened
in reality, and I doubt that those living under market laws
could coexist peacefully with those living in a socialist and
planned manner within a single guided nation. If such a plan
were indeed possible, then we could regard those who wish to
live according to market laws as a community with bad behaviour,
but still non-violent.
[quote][quote]"A voluntary attitude of defeating others who are
innocent is wrong"[/quote]
What is wrong with the following?
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eerOqp4GQk[/quote]
As long as the act of destroying one another does not undermine
the viability of life for those who do not wish to be involved
in such activities, then such activities may be permitted to
continue. But can such a situation truly exist? I do not know
how it could ever be achieved...
[quote]"a racist attitude carried out voluntarily is also
certainly wrong"
We already covered this:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/re-national-socialists-were-socialists-3223/msg30795/?topicseen#msg30795
[quote]"Racist behavior carried out between both parties
voluntarily is still wrong."
If group P unanimously asks group Q to treat P as the outgroup
and Q as the ingroup, and group Q unanimously agrees, I would
not initiate violence against either group. I would only
prohibit both groups from reproducing.[/quote]
But if P and Q, fearing violence from you, avoid doing the
above, we would never know that they should be prohibited from
reproducing.[/quote]
Apply the same reasoning to the group that prefers to live in
environments defined by economic and social competition. Their
preference will likewise produce social and economic
discrimination—and can escalate into racism and even global
colonialism.
[quote][quote]"Voluntarism inevitably opens the space for
violence"[/quote]
Pick one.[/quote]
A voluntary attitude of accepting violent practices is never
permissible under any circumstances. I would even reprimand a
child who takes pleasure in the harsh and traditionalist
behavior of their father and mother. And I would confront the
parents themselves far more forcefully, if I were able to do so.
I will not choose any of the options you provided. The choices
you offered are inadequate and unworthy of acceptance.
[quote][quote]"discipline will cultivate empathy within
ourselves and our surroundings, even if we do not yet feel
willing to agree "[/quote]
This is exactly what traditionalist parents say while torturing
children. This is why you are my enemy: you are a torturer in
service of tradition.[/quote]
I want to hold traditional parents, as well as racist and
capitalist individuals, strictly accountable through
uncompromising discipline of ideas and social accountability, so
that they come to understand the errors and absurdities of their
beliefs and behaviors. Do you not desire a strong, dictatorial
leadership to crush the traditionalist behaviors of humanity?
[quote][quote]"If the issuer of an agreement deliberately writes
it in a way that is difficult to understand in order to trap and
exploit the signatory, then as socialists we would oppose the
issuer of that agreement and call them a “fraud.”"[/quote]
If the signatory has trouble understanding it, the signatory can
refuse to sign. By signing, the signatory expresses willingness
to risk the consequences of whatever the agreement (including
the parts the signatory had trouble understanding)
entails.[/quote]
If a person who signs an agreement from a deceitful promisor is
unaware of the trickery within the contract, then the state must
intervene to protect them when fraudulent practices occur in the
execution of that agreement. That is the socialist approach… Not
all humans are intelligent… Not all humans can fully comprehend
the various forms of deception employed by Western-style
political and economic management.
[quote][quote]"A discussion about proper products also means
rejecting unfit products disguised in any form. This includes
not only “feces,” but also “pornography.”"[/quote]
So you (still) want to ban pornography. Again you are advocating
initiated violence.[/quote]
Pornography fuels human desire for sex, which can result in the
birth of a new individual—someone thrust into existence without
their consent. This new life may inevitably face suffering,
exploitation, or violence. From a socialist and ethical
standpoint, such practices are profoundly problematic: they
perpetuate harm before life even begins, reinforcing systems
where human beings are treated as objects rather than autonomous
subjects.
#Post#: 31004--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: 90sRetroFan Date: September 20, 2025, 5:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
"What I mean is this: society’s behavior will not change merely
by being forced to pay taxes."
I said:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/re-national-socialists-were-socialists-3223/msg30874/#msg30874
[quote]If I make $1 profit per day but all profits above $10 per
month are taxed at 100%, what incentive would I have to do
business more than 10 days per month, you moron?[/quote]
So if all profits above $10 per month are taxed at 100%, you
expect me to still do business every day. This is precisely why
you are a moron.
"What was once carried out through voluntary transactions must
be reshaped into transactions that are planned and grounded in
ethical considerations."
Translation: you want to initiate violence and call it
"ethical".
"Putting an end to voluntary economic transactions based on
market laws—so as to prevent deceptive labor contracts and the
exploitation of workers in the name of efficiency—is a form of
action that is inherently anti-violence."
Don't gaslight me.
"Of course, B, who has already become a fellow comrade in the
collective, must help A who has lost their 10 dollars"
By similar logic, if A damages property, should B have to pay
half the damage fees?
"Apply the same reasoning to the group that prefers to live in
environments defined by economic and social competition."
We already covered this:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/re-national-socialists-were-socialists-3223/msg30820/#msg30820
[quote]"People with a capitalistic and competitive mentality
will be targeted to be prohibited from reproducing."
But they should be allowed to go to whichever restaurant they
want to go to. Which you oppose. Which makes you the initiator
of violence.[/quote]
"A voluntary attitude of accepting violent practices is never
permissible under any circumstances."
Word tricks will not save you. Where is the violence in a
voluntary transaction?
"Do you not desire a strong, dictatorial leadership to crush the
traditionalist behaviors of humanity?"
Yes, insofar as traditionalist behaviour initiates violence
(which it does, as it involves torturing people until they
agree). You, on the other hand, want to crush non-violent
behaviour that you dislike (by torturing people until they agree
with you), which makes you the traditionalist and the initiator
of violence. In other words, I want a strong, dictatorial
leadership to crush YOU.
"If a person who signs an agreement from a deceitful promisor is
unaware of the trickery within the contract, then the state must
intervene to protect them when fraudulent practices occur in the
execution of that agreement."
"Deceitful" and "trickery" imply knowingly false information in
the contract. This is not what we are talking about. We are
talking about terms that the signatories do not understand:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/re-national-socialists-were-socialists-3223/msg31001/#msg31001
[quote]If the issuer of an agreement deliberately writes it in a
way that is difficult to understand[/quote]
"Pornography fuels human desire for sex, which can result in the
birth of a new individual"
The exact opposite is true:
HTML https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5039517/
[quote]Traditional factors that once explained men’s sexual
difficulties appear insufficient to account for the sharp rise
in erectile dysfunction, delayed ejaculation, decreased sexual
satisfaction, and diminished libido during partnered sex in men
under 40. This review (1) considers data from multiple domains,
e.g., clinical, biological (addiction/urology), psychological
(sexual conditioning), sociological; and (2) presents a series
of clinical reports, all with the aim of proposing a possible
direction for future research of this phenomenon. Alterations to
the brain's motivational system are explored as a possible
etiology underlying pornography-related sexual dysfunctions.
This review also considers evidence that Internet pornography’s
unique properties (limitless novelty, potential for easy
escalation to more extreme material, video format, etc.) may be
potent enough to condition sexual arousal to aspects of Internet
pornography use that do not readily transition to real-life
partners, such that sex with desired partners may not register
as meeting expectations and arousal declines. Clinical reports
suggest that terminating Internet pornography use is sometimes
sufficient to reverse negative effects[/quote]
It is not a coincidence that rightists who want to increase
"white" birth rates are the ones wanting to ban pornography, you
moron.
#Post#: 31121--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: antihellenistic Date: October 3, 2025, 9:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]"What I mean is this: society’s behavior will not change
merely by being forced to pay taxes."
I said:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/re-national-socialists-were-socialists-3223/msg30874/#msg30874
[quote]If I make $1 profit per day but all profits above $10 per
month are taxed at 100%, what incentive would I have to do
business more than 10 days per month, you moron?[/quote]
So if all profits above $10 per month are taxed at 100%, you
expect me to still do business every day. This is precisely why
you are a moron.[/quote]
If you restrict competitive business practices of an individual
or a group by removing incentives through 100 percent taxation,
you must be able to ensure that they do not create
gentrification of the environment and disrupt a planned and
guided way of life.
[quote][quote]"What was once carried out through voluntary
transactions must be reshaped into transactions that are planned
and grounded in ethical considerations."[/quote]
Translation: you want to initiate violence and call it
"ethical".
...
[quote]"A voluntary attitude of accepting violent practices is
never permissible under any circumstances."[/quote]
Word tricks will not save you. Where is the violence in a
voluntary transaction?[/quote]
The practice of voluntary economic transactions tends to result
in individuals and groups competing to defeat one another in
social life and in labor. Such attitudes inevitably foster
coarseness of character and a drive for domination, even between
ethnic and racial groups, in the pursuit of victory in economic
competition and the conquest of market share. Moreover, it
produces the exploitation of workers by business owners under
the guise of “efficiency” and “improving the quality of
production of an enterprise or corporation.” It is an ethical
endeavor for an individual or a collective to put an end to
voluntary transactions that operate under the laws of the market
mechanism. You must look to the impact on the surrounding
community in order to judge whether such voluntary transactions
are truly good, or whether they in fact amount to a form of
exploitation...
[quote][quote]"Putting an end to voluntary economic transactions
based on market laws—so as to prevent deceptive labor contracts
and the exploitation of workers in the name of efficiency—is a
form of action that is inherently anti-violence."[/quote]
Don't gaslight me.[/quote]
I am striving to remind you to truly understand and educate
society about socialism in the right way… None of my intentions
are aimed at trying to “gaslight” you.
[quote][quote]"Of course, B, who has already become a fellow
comrade in the collective, must help A who has lost their 10
dollars"[/quote]
By similar logic, if A damages property, should B have to pay
half the damage fees?[/quote]
If A destroys the property of an exploiter of labor and of those
with aggressive and Westernist character, then B is obliged to
aid A by any means, including by covering the costs of the
damage in order to safeguard A’s reputation. But if A destroys
the property of innocent people, then B is obliged to admonish A
as a fellow member of the collective.
[quote]"Apply the same reasoning to the group that prefers to
live in environments defined by economic and social
competition."
We already covered this:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/re-national-socialists-were-socialists-3223/msg30820/#msg30820
[quote]"People with a capitalistic and competitive mentality
will be targeted to be prohibited from reproducing."
But they should be allowed to go to whichever restaurant they
want to go to. Which you oppose. Which makes you the initiator
of violence.[/quote][/quote]
They [those with capitalistic personalities] must be compelled
to follow planned and coordinated activities. They cannot be
allowed to move about freely, in order to prevent them from
engaging again in underground economic transactions and in
economic competition governed by market laws within the
community. Alternatively, they may live in restricted spaces
under constant supervision. Thus, they are not only forbidden
from reproducing, but their movements must also be strictly
limited.
[quote][quote]"Do you not desire a strong, dictatorial
leadership to crush the traditionalist behaviors of
humanity?"[/quote]
Yes, insofar as traditionalist behaviour initiates violence
(which it does, as it involves torturing people until they
agree). You, on the other hand, want to crush non-violent
behaviour that you dislike (by torturing people until they agree
with you), which makes you the traditionalist and the initiator
of violence. In other words, I want a strong, dictatorial
leadership to crush YOU.[/quote]
I loathe the exploitation by landlords and capital owners, and I
despise the manipulative, harshly disciplinarian, and aggressive
conduct of parents toward their children — I desire an absolute
dictatorship to crush them all. I hate with precise intent. And
to end those exploitations, I must strive to see voluntary
economic transactions and market-law competition eradicated by
force if they cannot be eliminated by gentler means.
#Post#: 31230--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: 90sRetroFan Date: October 19, 2025, 12:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"It is an ethical endeavor for an individual or a collective to
put an end to voluntary transactions"
You are initiating violence.
"If A destroys the property of an exploiter of labor and of
those with aggressive and Westernist character, then B is
obliged to aid A by any means, including by covering the costs
of the damage in order to safeguard A’s reputation. But if A
destroys the property of innocent people, then B is obliged to
admonish A as a fellow member of the collective."
That's not what I asked.
"They [those with capitalistic personalities] must be compelled
to follow planned and coordinated activities."
You are initiating violence.
"I must strive to see voluntary economic transactions and
market-law competition eradicated by force if they cannot be
eliminated by gentler means."
You are initiating violence.
#Post#: 31231--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: SodaPop Date: October 19, 2025, 12:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"They [those with capitalistic personalities] must be compelled
to follow planned and coordinated activities."
Usually under capitalism one does not need to compel
companies\anyone to bid on a contract. For example, a state
government could open a contract for a new freeway overpass and
advertise it to relevant construction companies which in turn
bid on that contract. The best bid usually wins the contract.
The construction of the overpass is a "planned and coordinated"
activity of the state, and no one had to be forced to partake in
it...
#Post#: 31287--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: antihellenistic Date: November 5, 2025, 7:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote][quote]"It is an ethical endeavor for an individual or a
collective to put an end to voluntary transactions"[/quote]
You are initiating violence.[/quote]
The attitude of voluntary transaction also implies a voluntary
participation in transactional activities that produce
unemployment, poverty, and social violence within a community.
Such outcomes can arise because some parties fail to achieve
consumers' voluntary choices when engaging in buying and selling
activities within the law of voluntary exchange. However,
voluntary consumption by many people results in biased choices
regarding products and services. Consumers tend to choose
products that satisfy them, regardless of the exploitation and
alienation of labor that occurs in the production process. They
also tend to ignore the fact that unsatisfactory but still
consumable products are also worth purchasing to ensure that all
production sites receive a profit.
[quote][quote]"If A destroys the property of an exploiter of
labor and of those with aggressive and Westernist character,
then B is obliged to aid A by any means, including by covering
the costs of the damage in order to safeguard A’s reputation.
But if A destroys the property of innocent people, then B is
obliged to admonish A as a fellow member of the
collective."[/quote]
That's not what I asked.[/quote]
In other words, you still haven’t been able to answer my
argument.
[quote][quote]"They [those with capitalistic personalities] must
be compelled to follow planned and coordinated
activities."[/quote]
You are initiating violence.
[quote]"I must strive to see voluntary economic transactions and
market-law competition eradicated by force if they cannot be
eliminated by gentler means."[/quote]
You are initiating violence.[/quote]
To retaliate with violence against those who first initiated
violence (the capitalist society and the adherents of market
law) is an act of resistance, and there is nothing wrong with
that.
#Post#: 31288--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: antihellenistic Date: November 5, 2025, 7:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]Usually under capitalism one does not need to compel
companies\anyone to bid on a contract. For example, a state
government could open a contract for a new freeway overpass and
advertise it to relevant construction companies which in turn
bid on that contract. The best bid usually wins the contract.
The construction of the overpass is a "planned and coordinated"
activity of the state, and no one had to be forced to partake in
it...[/quote]
The practice of contracting based on the law of supply and
demand that you described results in failure for those who lack
bargaining power. In the end, this leads to poverty and
unemployment for the weaker side. Such a situation causes
parties to compete against one another merely to win contracts
and earn wages to survive. This, in turn, hinders mutual trust
and instead fosters aggression and hostility between them.
Therefore, if everything I have described occurs, it becomes
difficult for human beings of genuine virtue, sensitivity, and
socialist disposition—the kind you desire—to emerge.
#Post#: 31290--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: SodaPop Date: November 5, 2025, 8:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]The practice of contracting based on the law of supply
and demand that you described results in failure for those who
lack bargaining power. In the end, this leads to poverty and
unemployment for the weaker side. Such a situation causes
parties to compete against one another merely to win contracts
and earn wages to survive. This, in turn, hinders mutual trust
and instead fosters aggression and hostility between them.
Therefore, if everything I have described occurs, it becomes
difficult for human beings of genuine virtue, sensitivity, and
socialist disposition—the kind you desire—to emerge.[/quote]
There is certainly a lot wrong with capitalism, and it initiates
violence in various ways. The following would be one example:
[quote]Commodification is the process of transforming
inalienable, free, or gifted things (objects, services, ideas,
nature, personal information, people or animals) into
commodities, or objects for sale. It has a connotation of losing
an inherent quality or social relationship when something is
integrated by a capitalist marketplace. Concepts that have been
argued as being commodified include broad items such as the
body, intimacy, public goods, animals and holidays.[/quote]
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodification#:~:text=Commodification%20is%20the%20process%20of%20transforming%20inalienable%2C%20free%2C,%5B8%5D%20public%20goods%2C%20%5B9%5D%20animals%20%5B10%5D%20and%20holidays.
#Post#: 31291--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: 90sRetroFan Date: November 5, 2025, 11:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
"The attitude of voluntary transaction also implies a voluntary
participation in transactional activities that produce
unemployment, poverty, and social violence within a community.
Such outcomes can arise because some parties fail to achieve
consumers' voluntary choices when engaging in buying and selling
activities within the law of voluntary exchange."
This is not violence. This is inequality. You are an
egalitarian.
"In other words, you still haven’t been able to answer my
argument."
No, you avoided my question. My question was:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/re-national-socialists-were-socialists-3223/msg31004/#msg31004
[quote]if A damages property, should B have to pay half the
damage fees?[/quote]
to which your response was:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/re-national-socialists-were-socialists-3223/msg31121/#msg31121
[quote]if A destroys the property of innocent people, then B is
obliged to admonish A as a fellow member of the
collective.[/quote]
thus avoiding what I asked (in bold).
"those who first initiated violence (the capitalist society and
the adherents of market law)"
Voluntary transactions are by definition non-violent. (Hint in
bold.)
"The practice of contracting based on the law of supply and
demand that you described results in failure for those who lack
bargaining power."
Imagine a singing contest organized by a recording studio with a
recording deal as the prize. Two contestants A and B show up. A
sings better (according to the criteria of the recording studio)
and is given the recording deal. Can B be taken seriously if B
complains that it is wrong for B to not also get a recording
deal merely because B "lacks bargaining power" (ie. can't sing)?
"Such a situation causes parties to compete against one another
merely to win contracts"
How else, if not by listening to both A and B sing to see who is
better, is the studio supposed to decide whom to sign onto its
label?
"This, in turn, hinders mutual trust and instead fosters
aggression and hostility between them."
Only if B has a jealous personality. Therefore the problem is
B's personality, not the singing contest.
"if everything I have described occurs, it becomes difficult for
human beings of genuine virtue, sensitivity, and socialist
disposition—the kind you desire—to emerge."
Therefore we must eliminate jealous people, not eliminate
singing contests. Moron.
#Post#: 31292--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
By: 90sRetroFan Date: November 5, 2025, 11:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
"There is certainly a lot wrong with capitalism, and it
initiates violence in various ways. The following would be one
example:
[quote] Commodification is the process of transforming
inalienable, free, or gifted things (objects, services, ideas,
nature, personal information, people or animals) into
commodities, or objects for sale. It has a connotation of losing
an inherent quality or social relationship when something is
integrated by a capitalist marketplace. Concepts that have been
argued as being commodified include broad items such as the
body, intimacy, public goods, animals and holidays.[/quote]"
Commodification of animals obviously initiates violence because
the animal being commodified did not consent to this. But
commodification of animals long predated capitalism even
according to your own link:
[quote]The commodification of animals is one of the earliest
forms of commodification, which can be traced back to the time
when domestication of animals began.[10][/quote]
To be precise:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_vertebrates#History,_cause_and_timing
[quote]The first domesticate was the domestic dog (Canis lupus
familiaris) from a wolf ancestor (Canis lupus) at least 15,000
years ago. [/quote]
compared to:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#History
[quote]Capitalism, in its modern form, can be traced to the
emergence of agrarian capitalism and mercantilism in the early
Renaissance, in city-states like Florence.[43][/quote]
therefore can the latter be blamed for the former?
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