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#Post#: 31836--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
DIR By: antihellenistic
Date: December 30, 2025, 6:24 am
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--- Quote ---
> [quote]"enforcement of market laws"
--- End Quote ---
Pick one.[/quote]
If you regard ‘market laws’ as occurring without passing through
any form of enforcement, then I still maintain that ‘market
laws’ that arise naturally and spontaneously constitute an
obstacle to true freedom. The socialization of production,
distribution, and consumption is the only way to break through
that obstacle.”
--- Quote ---
> “… socialized man… rationally organizes their exchange with
Nature, bringing it under their collective control, rather than
being ruled by it as by the blind forces of Nature…”
--- End Quote ---
— Marx, Das Kapital Vol. 3, p. 593.
--- Quote ---
> Hitler's view that the positive results of NS economic policy
are mainly to be attributed to state control of the economy is
still shared today by historians. Karl Hardach, for example,
writes: That the National Socialists were able to implement
their extensive rearmament programme without any significant
currency devaluation,'* or any significant reduction of the
standard of living of the masses, was only possible because over
the years - without following a preconceived plan - they had
been able to convert what was left of the German free economy
into a planned economy step by step.'!*
>
> ...
>
> In a conversation with the Italian Minister of Justice Grandi
on 25 November 1940, Hitler criticized the governments of the
democracies: 'They actually do no work but leave everything to
civilian initiative and business. With this their problems are
not only not solved but simply ignored.''" In table talks on
27/28 July 1941 Hitler said that 'A sensible employment of the
powers of a nation can only be achieved with a planned economy
from above.*'* About two weeks later he said: 'As far as the
planning of the economy is concerned, we are still very much at
the beginning and I imagine it will be something wonderfully
nice to build up an encompassing German and European economic
order.'""The statement that as far as the planning of the
economy was concerned one was still at the very beginning is
important because it shows that Hitler was not thinking at all
of a reduction of state intervention - not even for the time
after the war - but, on the contrary, intended to expand the
instruments of state control of the economy even further.
>
> ...
>
> In the end, the speech Hitler had given on Speer's advice and
which Speer had helped to formulate had a completely different
result from what Speer had imagined. As Speer summarizes: "The
avowal of a free economy in times of peace, which I had asked of
Hitler and been promised, came out far less clearly than I had
expected.' Nonetheless, said Speer, some of the statements in
the speech had been noteworthy, so he asked Hitler for
permission to file it in the archives - which never came about
because Bormann prevented it and Hitler remained evasive. 14
>
> ...
>
> And indeed, in his speech we find several statements in which
he rejects any nationalization of the means of production,
declares his respect for private ownership'" and explains the
economic principle of competition in terms of socio-Darwinism. *
Many of these statements are not to be taken seriously - even if
they might have equated to some of his views in former years -
because we know from Speer that the purely tactical objective of
dispelling the suspicions of the industrialists was the
overriding motive. And Hitler did not really succeed in
presenting the assurances Speer had asked of him convinc- ingly
and credibly. Speer reports on his impression of Hitler's
speech: 'In his speech, in which he kept to my cues, Hitler gave
the impression of being inhibited. He made frequent slips of the
tongue, stopped, broke off in mid- sentence, lacked fluidity of
expression and occasionally confused himself." Speer also
attributes this to Hitler's state of exhaustion. What appears to
be more important to us, however, was that Hitler had been
compelled to state views which were far removed from his true
convictions, and to give a speech which, in contrast to his
custom, had partially been written by someone else.
--- End Quote ---
Hitler : The Policies of Seduction by Zitelmann, Rainer Page
231, 232, and 235
HTML https://archive.org/details/hitlerpoliciesof0000zite/page/232/mode/2up
Market Mechanism = Tyranny
#Post#: 31837--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: December 30, 2025, 5:00 pm
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"I still maintain that ‘market laws’ that arise naturally and
spontaneously constitute an obstacle to true freedom."
You are opposed to voluntary transactions, period. No rewording
can save you.
#Post#: 31844--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
DIR By: antihellenistic
Date: December 30, 2025, 8:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> [quote]"I still maintain that ‘market laws’ that arise
naturally and spontaneously constitute an obstacle to true
freedom."
--- End Quote ---
You are opposed to voluntary transactions, period. No rewording
can save you.[/quote]
Voluntary transactions lead to economic outcomes that tend to
prioritize the groups that win those transactions, rather than
providing assistance and protection to vulnerable, weak, and
exploited people who are trapped in precarious working
conditions as a result of the operation of such voluntary
economic transactions (also known as the law of market
mechanisms).
--- Quote ---
> Hitler's Reichs Press Chief Otto Dietrich writes in his
memoirs that Hitler had sensed that
>
> ... the economic requirements of human large-area development
had outgrown the structure of the former self-regulating private
capitalistic economic system and that common sense demanded a
new, more efficient economic structure, in other words a planned
overall management. The economic principle he was envisaging can
be expressed as follows: private capital production based on a
belief in the common good and under state control!"?
>
> ...
>
> Wages and prices, which in the capitalist free enterprise
system are left to the free play of forces of the market to
regulate, were state-controlled in the Third Reich. Whilethere
had already been a Reichs Price Commissioner in Germany since
1931, the creation of a new 'Reichs Commissioner for Price
Formation' at the end of October 1936 was 'more than just the
reactivation of an already familiar institution under a new
name. Under the Four-Year Plan it developed into a central
control institution for economic policy." The duties of the
Price Commissioner did not consist of merely 'controlling and
correcting market prices, but also of the 'official formation of
the price'. The assignment of labour was also state-controlled
by means of various instruments and meas ures. A directive
issued in 1936 within the framework of the Four-Year Plan, for
example, required every company in the iron and metal industry
and the building trade to train a certain number of apprentices
as a means of reducing the lack of skilled workers. "" In
summary we can note that the state created a comprehensive
planning instrument and by a number of direct and indirect
measures controlled the allocation of raw materials,
investments, wages, prices and in part also consumption."
--- End Quote ---
Source :
Hitler : The Policies of Seduction by Zitelmann, Rainer Page 234
and 238
HTML https://archive.org/details/hitlerpoliciesof0000zite/page/238/mode/2up
#Post#: 31846--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: December 30, 2025, 8:56 pm
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"Voluntary transactions lead to economic outcomes that tend to
prioritize the groups that win those transactions"
Yes, non-violent transactions tend to prioritize those who do
not initiate violence. That's the point.
"rather than providing assistance and protection to vulnerable,
weak, and exploited people who are trapped in precarious working
conditions as a result of the operation of such voluntary
economic transactions"
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/re-national-socialists-were-socialists-3223/msg30564/#msg30564
--- Quote ---
> You keep talking about workers being exploited by the private
sector, but the sufficient solution is for the state to ensure
that public sector jobs are readily available, so that workers
dissatisfied with their private sector jobs can easily switch to
public sector jobs. You, however, want to eliminate private
sector jobs altogether. Then what if the public sector is
exploitative? I want to maintain the private sector precisely to
guard against this possibility, so that workers dissatisfied
with their public sector jobs can also easily switch back to
private sector jobs. But what is your solution for workers
exploited by the public sector if no private sector exists as an
alternative?
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 31868--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
DIR By: antihellenistic
Date: January 1, 2026, 8:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> [quote]"Voluntary transactions lead to economic outcomes that
tend to prioritize the groups that win those transactions"
--- End Quote ---
Yes, non-violent transactions tend to prioritize those who do
not initiate violence. That's the point.[/quote]
Voluntary transaction activities that have been operating for a
long time have resulted in the exploitation of labor in the
pursuit of improving the quality and quantity of production,
with no clear endpoint. They have also led to the circulation of
money and transactions being concentrated only among certain
groups that win the competition for market share, rather than
circulating among people who have acted ethically,
empathetically, and non-aggressively but have failed to compete
in securing market share. Thus, voluntary transaction activities
do not result in a “non-violent” condition. A “non-violent”
condition can only be realized if economic activities based on
the principles of “free enterprise” and “freedom of
transactions” are brought to an end in the sphere of general
society through the enforcement of a planned economy.
--- Quote ---
> Disadvantages of a Market Economy
>
> - Inevitable periods of economic crisis due to the usual
business cycle ebb and flow
>
> - Possibly higher unemployment levels as compared to command
economies
>
> - Wider economic and social gaps
>
> - Possible exploitation of labor
>
> - Basic necessities may be harder to provide as they are
affected by demand and supply
>
> Profiteering is favored over social welfare
--- End Quote ---
Source :
Market Economy Overview and definition of a market economy
HTML https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/economics/definition-market-economy/
--- Quote ---
> ...In a market economics systems, the rich have far more
choice and economic freedom. Production is geared to meet the
needs and wants of the wealthy, thus basic services for the
poorer members of society may be neglected.
>
> ...
>
> ...The absence of government control means that public goods,
such as street lighting, public roads and national defence, may
not be provided. Relief of poverty in society might only be done
through voluntary charities.
--- End Quote ---
Source :
The advantages and disadvantages of the market economic system
HTML https://www.uyir.at/explore/eshaaan/the-advantages-and-disadvantages-of-the-market-economic-system
--- Quote ---
> [quote]"rather than providing assistance and protection to
vulnerable, weak, and exploited people who are trapped in
precarious working conditions as a result of the operation of
such voluntary economic transactions"
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/re-national-socialists-were-socialists-3223/msg30564/#msg30564
--- Quote ---
> You keep talking about workers being exploited by the private
sector, but the sufficient solution is for the state to ensure
that public sector jobs are readily available, so that workers
dissatisfied with their private sector jobs can easily switch to
public sector jobs. You, however, want to eliminate private
sector jobs altogether. Then what if the public sector is
exploitative? I want to maintain the private sector precisely to
guard against this possibility, so that workers dissatisfied
with their public sector jobs can also easily switch back to
private sector jobs. But what is your solution for workers
exploited by the public sector if no private sector exists as an
alternative?
--- End Quote ---
[/quote]
To provide protection for individuals who are sensitive but lack
the intellectual capacity to compete under the laws of “free
enterprise” and the “market economy,” economic activities based
on those laws should be restricted to specific zones only.
Furthermore, no individual should be allowed to own capital, so
that they can be more easily guided to live in an fair,
empathetic, and less aggressive manner.
#Post#: 31869--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: January 1, 2026, 11:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
"voluntary transaction activities do not result in a
“non-violent” condition."
Yes, they do. Voluntary = non-violent.
"A “non-violent” condition can only be realized if economic
activities based on the principles of “free enterprise” and
“freedom of transactions” are brought to an end in the sphere of
general society through the enforcement of a planned economy."
This is self-contradictory.
--- Quote ---
> Disadvantages of a Market Economy
--- End Quote ---
Disadvantage =/= violence.
#Post#: 31872--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
DIR By: antihellenistic
Date: January 2, 2026, 6:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> [quote]"voluntary transaction activities do not result in a
“non-violent” condition."
--- End Quote ---
Yes, they do. Voluntary = non-violent.[/quote]
Voluntary transactions give rise to a social order structured
around economic activity governed by the laws of the market
mechanism. These laws systematically generate social
stratification, in which actors who are aggressive, competitive,
dynamic, and innovative are structurally positioned to prevail
in transactions and to appropriate the circulation of money
within the economy. Conversely, those who are weak, vulnerable,
sensitive, and more empathetic are structurally disadvantaged,
tending to lose in market competition and to be excluded from
access to economic circulation. Their systematic failure
produces structural poverty and social brutalization, arising
from the dominance and victorious position of aggressive market
actors.
To date, you have failed to provide a concrete historical or
empirical example in which the application of market mechanism
laws has succeeded in abolishing social brutality, racism, and
socially conditioned aggressiveness. For this reason, I continue
to maintain my position.
--- Quote ---
> [quote]Disadvantages of a Market Economy
--- End Quote ---
Disadvantage =/= violence.[/quote]
Poverty, social violence, and practices of domination exercised
by actors who are aggressive, dynamic, innovative, and
psychopathic over those who are sensitive, empathetic, and
cooperative constitute structural consequences of the
enforcement of market laws and of economic activity that is not
centrally planned, but instead unfolds spontaneously and through
voluntary transactions. These consequences function as material
barriers to the establishment of socialism and to the abolition
of violence that has arisen from the operation of these
so-called natural laws of the market economy.
And yet, where exactly is the socialist movement that still
accepts economic activity organized around voluntary
transactions governed by so-called natural market laws? I
contend that no genuine socialist movement has ever accepted
such an economic conception, for it stands in direct
contradiction to the very foundations of socialism itself.
Moreover, there is no historical evidence that Hitler—the figure
you hold up as a model—ever endorsed the application of market
laws or so-called “voluntary transactions.” You should
therefore cease invoking Hitler as an inspiration in both online
and offline political discussion forums. Hitler supported a
planned economic structure rather than an economy based on
voluntary transactions governed by supposedly natural market
mechanisms.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
War has given rise to poverty everywhere, this indicates a
chronic crisis in the body of an obsolete system [Additional
information from my friend]
#Post#: 31873--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: January 2, 2026, 7:03 am
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"social stratification"
Complaining about this makes you an egalitarian.
#Post#: 31876--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
DIR By: antihellenistic
Date: January 3, 2026, 8:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> [quote]"social stratification"
--- End Quote ---
Complaining about this makes you an egalitarian.[/quote]
Putting an end to social stratification that obstructs the
formation of a life grounded in empathy and simplicity cannot be
condemned. Social stratification produced by apartheid practices
and capitalism is justified in being transformed. A form of
stratification based on the degree to which individuals
understand empathy and the allocation of the means and results
of production—ranging from those who understand it most to those
who are least willing to do so—is the appropriate form of social
stratification. I have not been an egalitarian from the outset
of this discussion.
#Post#: 31878--------------------------------------------------
Re: National Socialists were socialists
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: January 4, 2026, 4:23 am
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"A form of stratification based on the degree to which
individuals understand empathy and the allocation of the means
and results of production—ranging from those who understand it
most to those who are least willing to do so—is the appropriate
form of social stratification."
This form of social stratification is why you are only allowed
to post in Questions & Debates whereas individuals such as
Zea_mays who understand empathy:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/re-national-socialists-were-socialists-3223/msg30553/?topicseen#msg30553
--- Quote ---
> business-owners (which actually includes non-evil people
--- End Quote ---
are allowed to post in all forums.
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