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#Post#: 14775--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Democracy
DIR By: Zea_mays
Date: July 19, 2022, 9:13 am
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Another liberal reactionary article disgusting enough to pick it
apart line by line:
HTML https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5vg5x/we-cant-save-democracy-just-by-voting
--- Quote ---
> We Can’t Save Democracy Just by Voting
>
> In a country as fundamentally hostile to democracy as ours,
limiting it to the political sphere makes little sense.
--- End Quote ---
??? We can't save democracy through democracy, so we need more
democracy? How braindead are these people?
--- Quote ---
> It's a simple point that's been made over and over again in
the wake of these decisions, but it bears repeating: That a
handful of unelected officials can act against the interests of
the majority in this way shows how threadbare our democracy is,
and how deeply hostile our country’s institutions are to it.
--- End Quote ---
??? Supreme Court seats were a major campaign issue which caused
Republicans to elect Trump and a campaign issue for the parties
to battle over the Senate. That's democracy.
--- Quote ---
> The vast majority of decisions about how our lives are run,
after all, are made without any input from the public. How our
society’s resources are invested—what gets made, when, how, and
why—as well as how the spaces and platforms that mediate our
lives are run are all decisions made without much public input.
--- End Quote ---
Good, do you want low-information Trump voters deciding how to
run environmental policy?
Oh wait, the power of the unelected professionals at the EPA was
recently limited in order to make it more democratic:
HTML https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/30/-supreme-court-says-epa-lacks-authority-on-climate-standards-for-power-plants.html
--- Quote ---
> There’s a rhetorical commitment to political democracy, but it
amounts to nothing if we don’t democratize everything and allow
people to have a direct say in the things that affect their
lives.
--- End Quote ---
That's already happening actually. Trumpers (led by Steve
Bannon, etc.) have been engaging in a campaign to win every
single elected office from school boards on up, and have openly
been boasting about controlling the entire "election apparatus"
from the people who staff polling places on election day all the
way up to secretaries of state who support the coup:
HTML https://www.salon.com/2022/07/11/ron-desantis-handpicked-radical-far-right-secretary-of-state-will-oversee-his-race/
--- Quote ---
> Voting is one of the main examples held up as proof of our
democratic politics. For most of this country’s history, the
United States was explicitly run as an apartheid state that
withheld personhood, then citizenship, then suffrage from
African Americans until 1965.
--- End Quote ---
Yeah, because people voted for apartheid.
--- Quote ---
> "The court's aim, much like the conservative legal movement's,
is not theocracy but privatization," wrote McCray. "With
privatization comes the license to discriminate more wantonly
against those who have long had limited or no access to the
public good and the resources that support it."
--- End Quote ---
...That's literally what "democratization" of every aspect of
our daily lives would entail. The elimination of any form of
professional administration and replacement by whoever has the
most campaign/propaganda/bribe budgets...
--- Quote ---
> In the Federalist Papers and at the Constitutional
Conventions, Madison was unambiguous about the threat he
believed democracy posed to the proposed American republic.
>
> Federalist No. 10 warned against the “mischief of factions,”
defined as groups “united and actuated by some common impulse of
passion, or of interest, adversed to the rights of other
citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the
community." Factions would be guarded against by limiting
democracy in a few key ways: democratic involvement would be
limited to representation not direct deliberation; institutions
would be created to prevent a majority from monopolizing policy
and making minority interests feel permanently excluded.
>
> At the Constitutional Convention, Madison was more explicit in
his antipathy for democracy. In one debate that took place in
June 1787 over the design of the Senate, Madison laid out the
vision of a body protecting the “minority of the opulent” from
the threat of democracy. “Landholders ought to have a share in
the government, to support these invaluable interests and to
balance and check the other.”
>
> In other words, the core problem with democracy for the
Constitution’s key framer was the public and its ability to
participate.
--- End Quote ---
...Ok, and in our current system of universal suffrage we still
have the mischief of factions (far worse than it ever was in
history) and the opulent elites have arguably more power than
ever.
--- Quote ---
> Walter Lippmann—a journalist whose ideas about democracy and
liberalism were widely influential in the 20th century—wrote
extensively about the problem of the public and its unwieldy
nature. In his 1925 book Phantom Public, he writes that “the
public must be put in its place” so that “each of us may live
free of the trampling and the roar of a bewildered herd." In the
same book, he explains the public's role is not to "pass
judgment on the intrinsic merits" of policy—public opinion is
actually "a reserve of force brought into action during a crisis
in public affairs."
--- End Quote ---
Non-expert, low-information, reactionary judgment from the
public is especially bad in times of crisis (e.g. the
"non-binding" Brexit referendum), but being trampled under the
bewildered herd of Trumpers in normal times is considerably
annoying as well.
--- Quote ---
> In Bouie's column as well, the articulation of slaveholder and
statesman John C. Calhoun's explicit apartheid system as well as
its more informal version found in the Jim Crow South could be
read as continuing this long tradition of Madisonian (and
fundamentally American) hostility towards democracy in the name
of elite rule.
--- End Quote ---
No, the majority of voters voted to take away the ability of
"black" people to vote...
--- Quote ---
> The thread running through both reactionary and liberal
thought on democracy here is that when it’s not outright
opposed, it should be sharply limited to a form that simply
ratifies decisions made by elites.
>
> What would things look like if we took democracy a bit more
seriously—if we cultivated the public not as a force to be
projected or crushed, but as the integral part of the body
politic?
--- End Quote ---
Hmm, in today's world of expanded universal suffrage, democracy
remains a way to give legitimacy to decisions made by elites:
--- Quote ---
> Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and
organized groups representing business interests have
substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while
average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or
no independent influence.
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://static.cambridge.org/binary/version/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary-alt:20170126184834-00965-mediumThumb-S1537592714001595_fig1g.jpg
HTML https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B
Whether 0% or 100% of citizens favor a policy, there is no
statistical difference whether it gets enacted.
That means, if average citizens took something seriously enough
that literally 100% of non-elites were able to agree on
something, then, purely through voting and the democratic
process, nothing would change.
This image needs to be posted any time a liberal says we just
need to vote.
--- Quote ---
> There are a multitude of remedies that spring from this
prognosis that serve to more fully democratize our society. Some
circumvent the democracy deficit in this country by applying
pressure directly—uprisings and sabotage can serve to subvert
some ends, hold feet to the fire, and crystalize further actions
for movements to take. Dewey, a progressive liberal, may have
shied away from these more explicitly insurrectionary methods,
but still believed a revolution of sorts was necessary to save
this country and the traces of democracy within it.
--- End Quote ---
...What? Since universal suffrage isn't giving you the intended
result, you try to "democratize" society using highly
non-democratic means? ???
--- Quote ---
> A core thrust of Dewey’s philosophy was that democracy was not
compatible with a system that prioritized private control—not
just politics, but the economy itself.
> [...]
> At the time, Dewey was advocating for a new party to embark on
a social revolution that would create a real democracy in
America by reorganizing industry and production along social and
moral ends, as opposed to private profit first and foremost.
Public control and ownership of various sectors, undermining
corporate control and concentration across the economy, erecting
stronger barriers between the state and the private sector,
prioritizing technological development that has a social purpose
as opposed to an attractive or speculative profit potential, are
all some of the principles that can orient us as we ask how to
expand and cultivate democracy instead of following the lead of
America’s major institutions and thinkers in curbing it.
--- End Quote ---
That type of state control of society directed towards populist
ends sounds like National Socialism or Socialism with Chinese
Characteristics, rather than anything that is capable of
existing under democracy.
Even liberals during Dewey's time (including Lippmann!)
recognized this fact, and supported FDR becoming a dictator!
--- Quote ---
> The greatest applause from the large crowd on the east side of
the Capitol came when Roosevelt said that if his rescue program
was not quickly approved: "I shall ask Congress for the one
remaining instrument to meet the crisis: broad executive power
to wage war against the emergency, as great as the power that
would be given to me if we were in fact invaded by a foreign
foe."
> [...]
> And so the approving headline FOR DICTATORSHIP IF NECESSARY
ran in the New York Herald-Tribune on March 5, with similar
notes stuck in the Inauguration coverage of other major papers.
> [...]
> In preparing for the broadcast, someone in the small Roosevelt
inner circle offered the new president a typewritten draft of
suggested additions that contained this eye-popping sentence:
>
> As new commander-in-chief under the oath to which you are
still bound I reserve to myself the right to command you in any
phase of the situation which now confronts us.
>
> This was dictator talk -- an explicit power grab. The new
president was contemplating his "right" to command World War I
veterans -- mostly men in their late thirties -- who had long
since reentered civilian life.
> [...]
> But the commander in chief had no power over them. Here
Roosevelt would be poised to mobilize hundreds of thousands of
unemployed and desperate men by decree, apparently to guard
banks or put down rebellions or do anything else he wished
during "any phase" of the crisis, with the insistence that they
were dutybound to obey his concocted "command."
>
> That word -- "dictator" -- had been in the air for weeks,
endorsed vaguely as a remedy for the Depression by establishment
figures ranging from the owners of the New York Daily News, the
nation's largest circulation newspaper, to Walter Lippmann, the
eminent columnist who spoke for the American political elite.
"The situation is critical, Franklin. You may have no
alternative but to assume dictatorial powers," Lippmann had told
FDR during a visit to Warm Springs on February 1, before the
crisis escalated. Alfred E. Smith, the Democratic nominee for
president in 1928, recalled with some exaggeration that "during
the World War we wrapped the Constitution in a piece of paper,
put it on the shelf and left it there until the war was over."
The Depression, Smith concluded, was a similar "state of war."
Even Eleanor Roosevelt, more liberal than her husband, privately
suggested that a "benevolent dictator" might be what the country
needed. The vague idea was not a police state but deference to a
strong leader unfettered by Congress or the other inconveniences
of democracy.
> [...]
> Within a few years, "dictator" would carry sinister tones, but
-- hard as it is to believe now -- the word had a reassuring
ring that season. So did "storm troopers," used by one admiring
author to describe foot soldiers of the early New Deal, and
"concentration camps," a generic term routinely applied to the
work camps of the Civilian Conservation Corps that would be
established by summer across the country. After all, the Italian
Fascist Benito Mussolini, in power for a decade, had ginned up
the Italian economy and was popular with everyone from Winston
Churchill to Will Rogers to Lowell Thomas, America's most
influential broadcaster. "If ever this country needed a
Mussolini, it needs one now," said Senator David Reed of
Pennsylvania, outgoing President Hoover's closest friend on
Capitol Hill. The speech draft prepared for FDR brought to mind
Mussolini addressing his black-shirt followers, many of whom
were demobilized veterans who joined Il Duce's private army.
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5525748
--- Quote ---
> he magazine Commonweal, meanwhile, put forth the contention
that Roosevelt should assume "the powers of a virtual
dictatorship to reorganize the government".[6] Roger Babson
called for limitations to be imposed on the powers of Congress,
including the abolition of the United States Senate, while Will
Rogers supported proposals to extend extraordinary powers to
Roosevelt by writing that "Mussolini could take our country
today and put people back to work at the rate of one million per
month".[7] Roosevelt received letters from around the nation
imploring him to assume extraordinary powers.[6]
>
> The month prior to his March 1933 inauguration, Speaker John
Nance Garner introduced legislation into the U.S. House of
Representatives that would allow the presidency the unilateral
authority to suspend congressional appropriations, abolish
government departments, dismiss civil servants at his
discretion, and reduce statutory appropriations and contractual
payments, with Congress only able to check such measures with a
two-thirds supermajority in both houses.[8] Bertrand Snell –
leader of the Republican Party in the House – criticized the
bill which, he said, would "make an absolute dictator of
Roosevelt. It would give him more power than any executive
leader in the world except Mussolini".[9]
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://web.archive.org/web/20210813031152/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt_dictatorship
--- Quote ---
> "There's a long tradition and body of work in economics and
democratic theory that shows you can't just have democracy in
the political sphere—you have to extend democracy to other
branches of life like the economic sphere," said Thomas Hanna,
research director at the Democracy Collaborative.
--- End Quote ---
...Oh, and what type of people have been writing these
"traditions"?
--- Quote ---
> “This tradition of economic democracy, of extending people's
abilities and rights into economic decisions that impact their
lives, their family's lives, their community's lives, you just
don't get that with private ownership.”
--- End Quote ---
That's called autocratic socialism. "Economic democracy" is
literally private ownership where the most competitively
successful and wealthy businesses control the outcome of
democracy. Which is what we have now, and which is what Hitler
pointed out as one of the biggest problems of democracy 100
years ago. (i.e. the competitive traits that made the
"bourgeoisie" class successful in business made them successful
in democratic politics, to the detriment of society.)
--- Quote ---
> Putting the agriculture and energy sectors under public
control might help preempt inflationary prices for key
commodities, but it could also give communities more control
over the sort of production that goes on, whose needs it meets,
and the way their lives are shaped as a result. Nationalizing
meat packers, electric or gas companies, oil refineries, grain
traders, and other key nodes of various supply chains would give
more room for designs that prioritize other ends than private
profit (sustainability, labor conditions, zero emissions, etc.).
A public healthcare system might bring down costs of medication
or operations, but it could also liberate the army of people
whose labor is subordinated to protecting private health
insurance and its profits.
>
> Breaking up or banning some of the tech platforms that mediate
our lives might eliminate the more odious forms of labor
underwriting their operation, but it would also give people a
chance to create social networks and communities driven by
interests outside of profit and regulatory arbitrage.
--- End Quote ---
??? ::) How can anyone believe that is democracy? Moreover,
presumably once the entire economy is nationalized/placed under
a centrally-directed model, each sector will have to be managed
by experts, rather than voted on by idiots who know nothing
about running the world's most complex economy.
Seriously, read the quoted section again. Only someone
brainwashed into a cult which worships democracy without
thinking can think that in any way resembles democracy.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_religion
#Post#: 14904--------------------------------------------------
Exposing the Inferiority of Liberal People who Support Democracy
DIR By: guest30
Date: July 28, 2022, 10:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm recently doing a debate with the people who always support
democracy even though there's a flaw on it. See this
photographed Discord conversation
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/eb7620eb00a2948326fadeee4b5217c9/ffee4afbb9c5051a-d4/s2048x3072/8bc64ea87c0a748c11385b72dc337c67c945f665.jpg
Photographed on Friday, 22th July 2022, 16 : 12 Jakarta Time
Explanation 1 :
Account named "Aetherius Cassius" say that democracy can
resulting the wrong policy. And the majorities who made the
policy will suffer. And I explained to him that his statements
shows the flaw of democracy.
Account named "Zahra" said that democracy is needed for the sake
the government really know the will of the people.
And "Aetherius Cassius" said that the modern world need
liberal-democracy. Even though he already explained the flaws of
democracy and emphasized by me.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/98672371de1e07c5d66db01190547ca0/ffee4afbb9c5051a-9f/s2048x3072/9e962833cd056939893546083537651df5bd93ff.jpg
Photographed on Friday, 22th July 2022, 16 : 16 Jakarta Time
Explanation 2 :
I'm explain that the democracy will allow people to do the bad
things like exploit the another group of innocent people for the
sake of majority will. But "Zahra" answered with pretending that
historical facts is not result from democracy.
Then I explained again example of the evilness of democracy
through how Bismarck forced to did German colonialism in
"Africa"'s territory because of majority of inferior Germans
wanted Germany to did that thing.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/b832a289731d1dc23e4e300fe480e452/ffee4afbb9c5051a-50/s2048x3072/12c03492606ffdd03bae7f2a166705b2d977efa7.jpg
Photographed on Friday, 22th July 2022, 16 : 18 Jakarta Time
Explanation 3 :
"Zahra" said that showing of her ignorance on fact that the
colonialism are result of democracy. And consider "imperialism"
(Actually, the accurate term of European conquest is
"colonization") is not part of democratic policy and consider it
"non-issue" of the current conversation during that time. What
an inferior girl...
And "Aetherius Cassius" got confused and answer with confusion,
that such colonialism policy is politically "against democracy"
and not a "triumph of democracy". Even though that colonialism
was resulted from the will of majority during that time.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/fe5f3931619dd62c6bad6dfb626b9665/ffee4afbb9c5051a-7b/s2048x3072/98af212f1cba65005e6df70272909b14d9aa27bd.jpg
Photographed on Friday, 22th July 2022, 16 : 20 Jakarta Time
Explanation 4 :
I'm explaining again that majority will oftenly resulting
oppressive policy. Like Jim Crow law, the Israel colonialism,
and the democratic Western nations's invasion of Iraq and
Afghanistan. And "Zahra" with her inferior mentality consider
that my explanation was based on "American's democracy", which
according to her is "not a democracy." She not want to take
accountability that the democratic system which she support is
resulting many oppressive policies to the innocent communities.
"Aetherius Cassius" with his ignorance said that the tragedy of
historical international relations are not relevant to the
problem of democracy. Even though that invasions, racial
oppression, and colonialism are more than one time explained,
that it was happen because of democracy...
The Discord Group Doelian Society
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/c22d7384590a3419127e50416d354d17/3b89f769989e5de3-50/s2048x3072/67b865af18a9743f790b868c128e3e0d20ed75f4.jpg
Photographed on Friday, 29th July 2022, 10 : 43 Jakarta Time
#Post#: 14930--------------------------------------------------
Debate with the Federalist Liberal Retard (Libtard)
DIR By: guest30
Date: August 1, 2022, 12:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Report of Debate with the inferior liberals and the democrats
during Saturday, 30th July 2022
Picture of photographed debate conversation
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/98c3084356c07b7fcf456e380c1d2358/dd0ea41eb62fc7f5-78/s2048x3072/2de37718b5a6b8ebb15598160a56550656e8e81d.jpg
Explanation 1 :
I'm explain that the democracy resulting unethical policies to
the world's environment and the innocent peoples, like
colonialism and unnecessary war.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/52e9559f5998436605fe958640c45872/077441d51fd9f0a1-ae/s2048x3072/d9ed7dd6e9c56819b588dd77a618c7f28803c4ac.jpg
Explanation 2 :
They rather blame the outdated meaning of democracy rather than
acknowledge that the way of how democracy works. Which from
there it resulting the unethical policies, unnecessary war, and
colonialism. So they keep showing their wrong arguments.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/a30cd1e894b73fc07e9c2e5a459ab971/180d79834f6e16f7-a5/s640x960/55c82b9e8723bf9855246b19a8c516063a7f7ac0.jpg
Explanation 3 :
They merely explain that the democracy can solve the world
oppression with using Rawlsianism's definition of democracy.
Even though I'm already explain that the modern democracy still
resulting big oppression to the non-Western world, which already
using Rawlsianism. And another member explain that "white"
people are minority if compared to the rest of the people in the
world which out of topic
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/55a9537e5fdfb3b1b1a482487ffabe52/2899e0616de07677-08/s2048x3072/7895f1dbb199ccc9c3e4d14d7754c3d6f506cb17.jpg
Explanation 4 :
She keep ignoring that the result of democracy on today's time
which I'm already explained are "not relevant to the recent
political-science theory". Actually, it's democracy which still
used today based on "political-science theory", which keep
today's world problem happening without strong opposition. What
an inferior girl....
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/ed7037a5a70414971c1b05b6119a8cec/61fbb41a08394b4f-d5/s2048x3072/ab1dfff0a53f19437ddc20b2cb2227c7b571dbd8.jpg
Explanation 5 :
I'm show the 2016 news poll about Colonialism by British Empire.
Which 44 percents of the people agree that it was good, and only
19 percents who say it was bad. And I ask them to answer on how
the democracy solve that problem.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/384c3bf6e5a4250e1b83b31e52c42bef/003074cc27b5dc27-8b/s640x960/02aa77fc28a8744e4fe3f971765863b08e49e757.jpg
Explanation 6 :
I already explain that Trump who won on 2016 which resulting
oppressive policies to the innocents is because of democracy.
But she still deny that it has relevance to the implementation
of Aristotelian democracy.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/68d3a95b76cb2596df957d8da739bb4c/dd0ea41eb62fc7f5-29/s2048x3072/7b5563cd66ea5169113a78f6eef46b91dfab5d99.jpg
Explanation 7 :
She begin to ask a question which really out of topic, like
questioning my ages. It means she fail to answer my arguments
and fail to make the arguments about the evilness of democracy
were wrong.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/f546af1a29cdabf8d542f8baba8d3da9/1f54b2faa3fe5367-b8/s2048x3072/87ca528b75d9df3e4a73304c14eb2be436290543.jpg
Explanation 8 :
Some member explain that the people don't have to agree to what
the idea is. So he justify the people not agree with opposition
to what I say that colonialism, bullying, racialism is bad.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/22d5ae36084d8d0a02e3ab64660dbf30/dd0ea41eb62fc7f5-f9/s2048x3072/c724c09f301f554b919388077a1595ca91fc99e6.jpg
Explanation 9 :
She keep saying that liberalism said that racism is bad. If it
was like that, then why the pro-colonial mindset from the
British people still exist? She even ignore the fact about
colonial polls which I've shown on previous conversation
before... She is ignorant inferior unterfrau...
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/d5820c2ceb63305cc7ea71d0802d02e0/dd0ea41eb62fc7f5-a9/s2048x3072/55ca1e2fcfbc2ce1291b433856a8caf764c1eab6.jpg
Explanation 10 :
I'm answering with show the list of oppressive ideological
movements. And she questioning me about what I think on Jewish
people which not relevant to the topic discussion.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/958305bbe825f0f3ab3eaf3cf136ac9c/e944ce69f158e249-a1/s640x960/46a63c17d4adbea284620ade1dadf827c23b9d09.jpg
Explanation 11 :
And a member just consider me as an "oppressive" only because
I'm want to do that. So he disagree if we want to oppress the
oppressive movements for the sake implementing the community of
people which free from democratic tyranny and Zionist people's
domination for example... The liberals attitude just make our
struggle for reviving the fatherland hindered. And he mentioned
me as "double standart" without any reeason.
The sudden ban on me from their Discord group close the
discussion. So, the only way to debunk our ideological arguments
is with banning, judging, and mocking. That is the proper way,
remember that...
Apologize if the sentence above is make you feel got satirized
when debate with us.
Discord Grup [color=red]"Young World Federalist"
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/a76910067e13352d8208304a67d4a88a/e25575c9e5f12974-45/s2048x3072/293ef2d28cd08357940b8b4b2b80042f3852a6f4.jpg
Photographed on Saturday, 30th July 2022, 15 : 10 Jakarta Time
#Post#: 14932--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Democracy
DIR By: SirGalahad
Date: August 1, 2022, 2:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
They’re misguided fools. They have their hearts in the right
place with some of the things that they say, but they’ve been
fooled nonetheless. Their claim that supporting autocracy to put
an end to oppression is a double standard and makes you no
better than the original oppressor, is like saying that it’s a
double standard to support self-defense if you hate violence.
#Post#: 14995--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Democracy
DIR By: ajomagurd
Date: August 4, 2022, 5:46 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm one of the people that was in one of those screenshots. You
want to debate still?
#Post#: 14996--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Democracy
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: August 4, 2022, 6:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If you want to debate, you are welcome to start a new topic
here:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/
#Post#: 15011--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Democracy
DIR By: guest30
Date: August 6, 2022, 12:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Debate with the Communist who always support Democracy no matter
how flaws it's implementation result...
Date : Friday, 5th August 2022 Jakarta Time
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/3b852522565952b0ad351339c32db512/9f5c6d76a7f7a767-c4/s2048x3072/3e28392df84ace953160e0b5445598ae7c232e61.jpg
Photographed on Friday, 5th August 2022, 21 : 24 Jakarta Time
Explanation 1 :
I'm explaining the weakness of democracy. That is always
promoting the interest of majorities even though their will is
violating the rules of law.
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Photographed on Friday, 5th August 2022, 21 : 37 Jakarta Time
Explanation 2 :
He answered that socialist has no anything to do with autocratic
systems, which explicitly explain his flaws about communism too
alongside the democracy.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/ee158bdcd4ee1d3af21fcab288a322d4/9f5c6d76a7f7a767-f0/s2048x3072/411bb9e3a47eb12ff0eaa8ffa5324f884da6e3d0.jpg
Photographed on Friday, 5th August 2022, 21 : 42 Jakarta Time
Explanation 3 :
I explained to him that I disagreed with the communism
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Photographed on Friday, 5th August 2022, 21 : 42 Jakarta Time
Explanation 4 :
I'm showing again the example of the flaws of democracy. showing
how the Westerners keep harming the world's environment today
and keep ignoring the sufferings of the rest of the world
because of their aggressive colonialism and diplomatic
exploitation until today. And I'm declared that I'm Sukarnoist
who disagree with communism.
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Photographed on Friday, 5th August 2022, 21 : 49 Jakarta Time
Explanation 5 :
I threaten to expose that group's conversation to public. And
showed to them that I'm already informing with sources about the
secret pact between Soviet and Israel to help each other, but
got timed out by the admin before... And he explained that
Western oppression keep happening because the majority of
Westerners don't have sufficient money to replace the
commodities which product of export labour. It means democracy
even cannot solve the Western's oppressive behaviour. And he who
debate to me proudly without guilt declared as Westerner.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/f50497e4b3160654c33314b5b39fad59/ab08a1e3339c93e7-75/s2048x3072/e628b3ac225ba51e2600a601f47be84784c6f06e.jpg
Photographed on Friday, 5th August 2022, 21 : 52 Jakarta Time
Explanation 6 :
I'm saying that working class of the West keep the Western
oppression and domination happening until today to him. And I
ridiculed him with asking that where is the power of the
dictatorial proletariat...
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Photographed on Friday, 5th August 2022, 22 : 00 Jakarta Time
Explanation 7 :
I'm explaining that democracy keep allowing the majority
ignoring the oppressive result of economic progress. That is
exploiting the another communities's resources forcibly if the
resources of the economically progressive nations inadequate.
The matter about democracy is everything allowed if the majority
wants it.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/243ef30c6347aea93a78b7ef26dbbed4/ab08a1e3339c93e7-24/s2048x3072/2164528e0bd18b3b780b8ecc9b2b7a43c6ed3126.jpg
Photographed on Friday, 5th August 2022, 22 : 05 Jakarta Time
Explanation 8 :
He keep talking that it's not democracy who cause the Western
oppression happened. Even he pretending that there's no
democracy on the West. Although the West recorded today as the
most democratic nations on this world.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/20c4a2070f684e124ce9455f29494dfb/ab08a1e3339c93e7-67/s2048x3072/58c9904a946b128963c932b365e165af0698cac1.jpg
Photographed on Friday, 5th August 2022, 22 : 05 Jakarta Time
Explanation 9 :
I'm explaining again that the West still oppress the innocent
non-Western nations even though they are already implement the
democracy. Like invading Iraq which led by Saddam Hussein,
defeat and bring Libya which led by Muammar Kaddafi, into
conflict, French indirect modern colonization of "Africa"
nations (Frenchafrique), and invasion of Afghanistan.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/26fe36acca2ebde3beeed7897e3bcaad/258a168f3d6372fa-93/s2048x3072/aff537b3d4c68228bd225fbe981a278460a47500.jpg
Photographed on Friday, 5th August 2022, 22 : 10 Jakarta Time
Explanation 10 :
He implicitly explain the weakness of democracy from the
argument which he said before. Even the majority cannot control
the leader's power when he/she did something oppressive to
another communities.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/bce96cd91aefd1d9269ace25d371224b/258a168f3d6372fa-1d/s2048x3072/253b8464828378ac806d500eb5eb63a5d31ae6f9.jpg
Photographed on Friday, 5th August 2022, 22 : 12 Jakarta Time
Explanation 11 :
I'm also exposed the communist female unterfrau who had Discord
account named "Pickaxe and Rifle" who also joined on that
inferior communist Discord group
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/78111e8ff975103b60e611c68fabe096/258a168f3d6372fa-04/s2048x3072/75b6d1178659c37b7b7b1a2846e9df0d0b0e00cf.jpg
Photographed on Friday, 5th August 2022, 22 : 16 Jakarta Time
Explanation 12 :
He keep denying that borgeoisation is not result of democracy,
even though they are result of capitalism economic system and
democratic liberalism way of life. And he considered the
democracy during the Eastern European nations became communist
"were implemented the real democracy". Even though the
Soviet-bloc were not seriously to defeat the colonialism and
liberalism, I'm already said about that to him on the previous
conversation before...
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/ec3dadeb6c9d0e59837d45e56e94efd4/c1406f8406d23bd9-5f/s2048x3072/e5f7b61190462fb3ace687cac3493e1e334aaea0.jpg
Photographed on Friday, 5th August 2022, 22 : 37 Jakarta Time
Explanation 13 :
Until the end of conversation, he still denied again and again
that democracy was the problem and borgeois people are the
result of democracy way of life. So I can consider the flaws of
democracy and Communist Marxist Socialism is not less evil than
the liberal relativist colonialist
Photographed Information of Discord server "Marxist-Leninist
Internationale"
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Photographed on Saturday, 6th August 2022, 12 : 06 Jakarta Time
The people whom I debate, named [b]DarthLeninus#5001[/b]
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Photographed on Saturday, 6th August 2022, 12 : 06 Jakarta Time
#Post#: 15187--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Democracy
DIR By: guest30
Date: August 18, 2022, 9:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Another Example of Debate on Democracy on Discord Group
"Republic of Jayford"
Date :
Session 1 : Sunday, 14 August 2022, from 23 : 14 until 23 : 46
Jakarta Time
Session 2 : Monday, 15 August 2022, from 00 : 07 until 01 : 17
Jakarta Time
See this photographed Discord group's conversation below :
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Explanation 1 :
He complained about the result of dictatorship which only
satisfy the leader and his co-workers and terrorized people.
Including the Hitler's Germany which terrorized Europe. But He
not complained every single time about the colonialism which
suffered all of the "colored" people by the "white" people's
nations of democracy
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Explanation 2 :
He said that everybody wanted to rule the world. Of course I
replied to him that forbid the liberals and the colonialist to
rule the world was a good thing.
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Explanation 3 :
I showed to him that discuss with the government was the best
way to solve problem on non-democratic nations rather than
merely did a revolt and protest. But he begin to answered my
knowledge argument with only judging
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Explanation 4 :
I'm said that the mass death tragedy for defeat the oppressors
and sacrifice for the anti-colonialism's national ideal were not
a bad thing to him.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/b23d557e0b7367aef79c7ff51acde97f/0cfc9e9c784aa6a1-13/s1280x1920/b570ff547bde492e46a96233ca57a07c55c98a3d.jpg
Explanation 5 :
And he considered me as "Neo Nazi" only because I don't wanted
to live side by side with the people with different opinions.
Because I'm said that I don't want to live with the liberals and
colonialist mindset... Since when the "Neo-Nazis" didn't like
colonialism...
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Explanation 6 :
I'm said to him that even though "South Korea" was developed
without oppressing other nation. They actually were developed by
the assistance from the United States which resulting the
development with threatening their neighbors like Democratic
People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) .
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Explanation 7 :
I'm explained to him that with the authoritarian government, the
problem of liberalism, discriminative and colonialist mindset of
the people will easily controlled and hopefully will removed.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/a08649e72513ac3963a742807eeaec40/0cfc9e9c784aa6a1-60/s1280x1920/1f862c4c1d9a08813e3aefbc2c4df65096e0aac5.jpg
Explanation 8 :
I'm explained to him that liberalization of Nusantara resulting
economic unfair distribution and forced resources's exploitation
by the foreign nations (West and China) which resulting unfair
trade between Nusantara and the Western powers and China, the
nations which commited most largest resources exploitation to
our homeland.
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/3529d59bde0211cd8395e2edef9ec15c/0cfc9e9c784aa6a1-93/s1280x1920/8106d3ce34e848678b3db09eb8849df5786f2e3a.jpg
Explanation 9 :
He still complained about the decisive action to removed the
people who had contrary beliefs and worldview to the state, if
the state were non-democratic authoritarian. And he not
answering my knowledge arguments with facts again and again. I'm
already explained to him that the non-democratic approach was
the only effective way to solve the oppression of society
Discord account named G.S. Sundang was a Malaysian Western man
who debated me
#Post#: 15191--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Democracy
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: August 18, 2022, 1:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
"I showed to him that discuss with the government was the best
way to solve problem on non-democratic nations"
Actually the best response to disagreement with an autocratic
government is emigration.
"He still complained about the decisive action to removed the
people who had contrary beliefs and worldview to the state, if
the state were non-democratic authoritarian."
Yes, because you forgot to mention that people should be allowed
to emigrate.
(Also, we are opposed to authoritarianism. People's private
lives are of no concern to the state.)
#Post#: 15196--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Democracy
DIR By: guest30
Date: August 18, 2022, 6:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
@90sRetroFan
--- Quote ---
> Actually the best response to disagreement with an autocratic
government is emigration.
--- End Quote ---
This argument can be used back by the democrats to attack us
when we complain the nation's democracy and dissatisfaction to
it.
--- Quote ---
> (Also, we are opposed to authoritarianism. People's private
lives are of no concern to the state.)
--- End Quote ---
If the people's private live tend to resulting reproduction
without permit from the state, camouflaging secret illegal
political movements, and spread their private's life to public
whether through electronic tools like social media or photos,
but the values is contrary to the national ideals. Then who will
make them put in order?
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