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       #Post#: 23939--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Western Democracy
   DIR By: GermanicDemocracy?
       Date: November 21, 2023, 2:58 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote ---
       > Does western democracy mostly derive from Germanic people
       instead of the Greeks?
       >
       > I was reading about Charlemagne‘s forced conversion of Saxons
       and supposedly one of the reason the Saxons (mostly the lower
       classes) resisted conversion so strongly is because they didn’t
       want their political and democratic rights stripped from them.
       >
       > Obviously one of the most democratic countries in Europe has
       been England who derive from the Saxons. I’m just wondering if
       Athenian democracy is overstated in comparison to the Germanic
       influence on western democracy.
       >
       > [Response:]
       >
       > --
       > While it is true, that tribal societies usually have a more
       democratic structure than 18th century absolutist monarchies or
       modern dictatorships, I wouldn't go so far as to claim that this
       Germanic tribal society has had much influence on modern
       democracy. The no-source-text clearly gives us certain keywords
       that make it clear that this is not a democratic society
       described here: Nobleman. Castes. Leaders.
       > The Noblemen were basically early Monarchs. It isn't described
       how the assembly was put together, but I think it's fair to
       assume that it wasn't be a general election that would hold up
       to modern democratic standards. Germanic tribes had
       pre-Monarchy-structures and over time, Germanic states became
       Monarchies in the early Middle Ages.
       >
       > The conflict between Charlemagne and the Saxons was complex
       (Saxon Wars - Wikipedia), but it wouldn't be correct to put that
       down to democratic structures. While the Saxons and Charlemagne
       are both considered "Germanic", one shouldn't underestimate the
       regional "proto-patriotism" of Germanic tribes. Charlemagne was
       basically a foreign invader who wanted to conquer Saxonian
       lands, establish himself as ruler and change Saxonian culture
       and religion. Those are enough reasons for any culture of any
       kind to defend itself fiercely without even discussing how much
       democracy one might have under foreign rule established by
       war...
       > --
       >
       > A lot of western democracy is derived from the Germanic legal
       tradition. The thing to look at is how the Middle Ages dealt
       with parsing the competing legal traditions of Roman Law,
       Canonic Law, and Germanic tribal law – there's a reason
       Medievalists dubbed the 13th c. "The Century of the Lawyer".
       > --
       >
       > I think there are really two different strands of ideas which
       modern Western political systems have been influenced by, to
       varying degrees depending on country and circumstances.
       >
       > 1) The Enlightenment, through the French (and to a lesser
       degree in Europe post 1945, American revolutions)
       >
       > 2) Feudalism, in the broadest possible sense.
       >
       > To the degree that a state’s politics is the product of ”1)”,
       the Greeks and Romans may be more influential than the Germanic
       peoples - although filtered through the really very Christian
       and very nerdy Enlightenment.
       >
       > To the degree that a state’s political institutions is not of
       Enlightenment origin, it is basically all Germanic. Every modrn
       country in Europe that has some tradition of political
       representation which goes back longer than the French
       revolution, be it Sweden, The UK, Switzerland or w/e is of
       Germanic origin.
       >
       > All Feudal institutions are (or were?), more or less, Germanic
       in the broad sense, in the way that the basic power structure of
       nobles who are freed from taxation and are a military class is
       more Germanic than Greco-Roman. The entire tri-partite division
       of medieval society probably is more similar to how
       pre-Christian Germanic societies were organized than the late
       Roman state (but this is not the same as saying it is 100% a
       direct product, of course there was cross-pollination etc).
       >
       > In the most direct sense, the nobility in most of Europe West
       of Poland, even in places like Italy and Spain, is
       disproportionately of Germanic descent, if you look at the
       genaeology. Since for a lot of the middle ages the nobility were
       in many ways synonymous with the most free part of the
       population, and as everybody knows the nobility had a conception
       of themselves which was quite familial, separate from the
       commoners…well… the argument is self-explanatory…
       >
       > Historically it is not entirely as clear cut: I think I
       mentioned the Italian citystates. Well, we also have things like
       Novgorod, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Gallo-Roman
       nobility in Provence before the crusades there (ai’ve heard, I
       am no expert)…
       >
       > So there have certainly been other kinds of political freedom,
       with a flavour from other European ethno-cultural groups, but
       the Germanic strand seems to be the only ones who have survived
       to the present day in some form in some places as a real
       separate influence from the Enlightenment.
       >
       > Whether this is the product of chance or greater resilience is
       an open question: I think both, but that is just my gut.
       Germanic Europe was just not so civilized, and property -holding
       was comparatively egalitarian with down south, for a very long
       time. It makes sense that people who marinate in this cultural
       substrate for centuries (or millennia?) develop a more
       egalitarian attitude toward politics than peoples with a more
       mixed experience, including living under the bureaucratic and
       incredibly hierarchical collossus which was the late Roman
       Empire.
       > --
       --- End Quote ---
  HTML https://historum.com/t/does-western-democracy-mostly-derive-from-germanic-people-instead-of-the-greeks.190206/
       Noteworthy in regards to the above questions and responses, and
       timely considering western civilization and current
       geopolitics?:
       --- Quote ---
       > ...
       > There is one important difference between the past Reich and
       the present Reich’s policies. The old Empire granted freedom to
       its people and showed strength to the outside world, while the
       new Republic displays weakness in foreign affairs and suppresses
       its citizens at home. In both cases, we can see cause and
       effect. The powerful national state does not need excessive
       domestic laws since its citizens love it and are attached to it.
       The state that is a slave to international interests must resort
       to compulsory force in order to make its subjects perform the
       services it demands. Therefore, it is one of the greatest crimes
       of the
       > new Republic to dare and speak of “free citizens”. This could
       only be said in the old Germany. The present Republic is a
       slave-colony for the benefit of foreign countries. It has no
       citizens, but, at best, subjects. For that very reason it does
       not have a national flag, but only a trademark introduced and
       guarded by official decrees and regulations. This symbol is the
       Gessler’s hat of German democracy and it will always remain
       alien to the heart of our people. (Gessler’s hat is a reference
       to the story of William Tell. Gessler was the local ruler who
       put his hat on a pole and demanded the citizens bow to it when
       they passed. William Tell did not bow and was arrested. It is
       also a play on the name because Gessler is the name of Otto
       Gessler, the Minister of the Reichswehr.) This new Republic has
       thrown the symbols of the past into the gutter, without any
       respect for tradition and greatness, but the day will come when
       the new Republic is astonished to find that its subjects were
       only play-acting and honored its own symbols superficially for
       they meant nothing to the people. The Republic has made itself
       nothing more than an intermission; it will be a short,
       unimportant part in German history.
       >
       > In order to save itself, this new Republic must constantly
       restrict more and more the sovereign rights of the individual
       states, not only for financial reasons, but also to maintain
       control. Since it drains the last drop of our citizens’ blood
       through its tactics of financial extortion, it must also take
       away every last one of their rights unless it is prepared to
       watch as someday general discontent turns into open revolution.
       — Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, pg. 387. Ford translation....
       --- End Quote ---
       #Post#: 24174--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Western Democracy
   DIR By: antihellenistic
       Date: November 28, 2023, 1:20 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Western Liberalism enhancing Colonialism
       --- Quote ---
       > By the end of the nineteenth century, a large portion of the
       globe was  controlled by European nations committed to some form
       of liberal democracy at home. Their colonial possessions did not
       have legislatures  or other democratic political structures for
       the most part, and few of  their people had the right to vote or
       any ability to choose their rulers.  In contrast, in the
       metropoles that controlled these colonies the principle of
       popular sovereignty was gradually becoming the norm, as was the
       idea that all adult men should have the right to vote. Moreover,
       nations  like France and Britain that had made the most progress
       in developing  liberal democracy at home had also created the
       largest overseas empires.  The fact that metropole and empire
       were usually legally distinct served  to mask the fact that they
       nonetheless constituted whole political units  internally
       segregated by race. Within them, liberal democracy was  largely
       for whites, while nonwhites were subject to authoritarian
       imperial rule.
       >
       > ...
       >
       >
       > In both the British and French empires, somewhat like in the
       United  States, voting practices varied widely according to
       local traditions and  legal customs. Often, however, whites
       could vote and “natives” could  not, or if the latter could in
       some cases vote, their votes would not translate into any
       meaningful political power or self-rule. Electoral rights varied
       widely across the British Empire, but in most of its colonies
       the 156 Chapter 4 local privileges around racial distinctions
       meant that inhabitants could not vote, and frequently within the
       colonies the British designed electoral privileges around racial
       distinctions.76 Many colonies, like Britain  itself, based
       suffrage rights upon property, and that fact alone usually
       prevented most of the indigenous, non-white population from
       voting.  In India, for example, only a tiny percentage of adult
       males could vote  until after World War I.77 In Jamaica, while
       Black and colored men could vote in the nineteenth century,
       property qualifications—especially for  those who wanted to run
       for office—were high enough to keep a white oligarchy firmly in
       the saddle. As historian Thomas Holt has commented, “If, all
       things being equal, Black men should rule the island,  then all
       things could not be equal.”78
       >
       > The racialized character of British imperial electoral
       democracy was most evident in the white settler colonies.
       Democracy was often much more advanced there than in the mother
       country; for example, New Zealand was one of the first modern
       nations to give women the vote. This liberality usually did not
       extend to indigenous or nonwhite populations. In Canada before
       1867, British male subjects could vote, but not Catholics, Jews,
       or indigenous peoples. In both Australia and New  Zealand,
       formal as well as informal restrictions kept most members of the
       indigenous populations away from the polls. Interestingly, South
       Africa represented one of the few cases where colonial Africans
       could vote in large numbers, a major factor in prompting white
       South Africans  to seek independence. To an important extent,
       Britain’s white colonies gave their white subjects all the
       rights of freeborn Englishmen, and in a  colonial situation this
       traditional sense of rights increasingly translated into the
       right to vote.79
       >
       > Although the French Empire was in general more centralized
       than that of the British, it also practiced various approaches
       to native enfranchisement. When the French abolished slavery in
       their Caribbean and Indian Ocean colonies in 1848, they made the
       former slaves citizens of  France and gave the men of the “old
       colonies” the right to vote on an equal footing with French men
       in the metropole. That at least was the theory; the reality on
       the ground in Martinique, Guadeloupe, Réunion,  and French
       Guiana was very different. The old colonies remained colonies,
       even though their inhabitants were citizens, a fact that
       circumscribed their political autonomy vis-à-vis France.
       Moreover, the white planters and former slaveholders continued
       to dominate the local economies, essentially based in the
       production of sugar. French ex-slaves could in fact vote, but
       their ability to do so did little to improve their conditions in
       the years after the abolition of slavery.80
       >
       > Most of the inhabitants of the rest of the French Empire were
       subjects and therefore had no right to vote. It was possible for
       natives to become citizens by attaining the status of évolués,
       “evolved individuals,”  by giving proof of assimilation into
       French culture and law.81 Since this meant not only obtaining
       French education in colonies with few schools but also
       renouncing other legal traditions, notably Islamic, it was a
       path open to and taken by only a few individuals.82 In colonial
       Algeria, for example, the number of “evolved ones” amounted to
       only a few thousand out of several million people.83 This
       practice not only benefited  few people but also reinforced the
       idea that freedom was a European  idea reserved for white
       Europeans.84
       --- End Quote ---
       Source :
       White Freedom The Racial History of an Idea Tyler Edward Stovall
       2021 Princeton University Press page 170, 171, 172
       #Post#: 24200--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Western Democracy
   DIR By: democracy
       Date: November 28, 2023, 10:19 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       The events in Europe shows that in times of crisis under the
       rule of democracy, the far right is more easily able to assert
       itself.
       #Post#: 24218--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Western Revisionism of WWI and WWII
   DIR By: antihellenistic
       Date: November 29, 2023, 4:47 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Imperial Japanese's Worldview during World War II
       --- Quote ---
       > Fighting both fascism and Western racism during World War II
       was also a key issue for the colonial subjects of European
       empires. This was especially true of those in Asia, confronted
       by the threat (or reality) of Japanese invasion and occupation.
       More than in the case of the Allied struggles against Nazi
       Germany and Vichy in North Africa, Imperial Japan’s approach to
       the war made this a very complex question. On the one hand,
       Japan’s war effort, especially against China, was motivated by
       its own racial prejudices. Japanese troops frequently looked
       down on the Chinese as dogs, and such attitudes helped
       facilitate widespread massacres against the civilian
       population.188 On the other hand, the Japanese portrayed the war
       in the Pacific as a pan-Asian campaign against Western
       imperialism and their conquest of colonies like the Dutch East
       Indies and the Philippines as wars of liberation. Japan
       certainly had its own colonies, notably Korea and Taiwan, but it
       nonetheless saw itself as a force for Asian racial deliverance
       and freedom. During the Paris Peace Conference of 1919 Japan had
       supported a resolution for racial equality that was defeated by
       the Western powers, and many Japanese saw the Pacific war as
       merely a new phase in this struggle for racial equality.
       --- End Quote ---
       Source :
       White Freedom The Racial History of an Idea Tyler Edward Stovall
       2021 Princeton University Press page 257, 258
       #Post#: 24233--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Western Democracy
   DIR By: antihellenistic
       Date: November 29, 2023, 9:19 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Discriminative and Eurocentrist attitude in China came from the
       Democratic Chinese
       --- Quote ---
       > The Goddess of Democracy, along with the destruction of the
       Berlin Wall, became one of the most prominent symbols of the
       global movement for liberal democracy and freedom in the late
       twentieth century. Like the Statue of Liberty itself, the
       Goddess also had an important racial dimension. The whiteness of
       the statue—not just the white color of the papier-mâché but more
       significantly the prominent European features of its
       face—contrasted sharply with the typical Communist statuary in
       China, including in Tiananmen Square itself. More generally, the
       pro-democracy movement in China began with a wave of racist
       attacks against African students. Prejudice against Africans was
       nothing new in China, where many saw African students as unduly
       privileged (a criticism made much less often of other foreign
       students). In December 1988, a series of attacks and
       demonstrations against Africans broke out in several cities,
       most notably in Nanjing but also Hangzhou, Wuhan, and
       Beijing.110 Resentment over African men dating Chinese women
       often provoked clashes, but many Chinese students also attacked
       the regime for importing and protecting the Africans. As Barry
       Sautman has noted, “Student ‘democrats’ did attach slogans about
       human rights and freedom to anti-Black exhortations and  thus
       used the events to advance their own agenda by claiming that the
       regime failed to protect the rights of Chinese against the
       alleged depredations of Africans.”111 In China, as in other
       parts of the world, desire for freedom and racial prejudice were
       strange but close bedfellows. The Goddess of Democracy
       symbolized not just liberty but white freedom as well.
       --- End Quote ---
       Source :
       White Freedom The Racial History of an Idea Tyler Edward Stovall
       2021 Princeton University Press page 109
       #Post#: 24415--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Western Democracy
   DIR By: antihellenistic
       Date: December 12, 2023, 10:18 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: antihellenistic link ---
       >
       > Democracy cannot work properly on people with low intelligence
       and low ability to sustain their economy
       >
       > [quote]Prof. Vanhanen proposes that high IQ per se is
       necessary for democracy because “people in countries with low
       national IQs are not as able to organize themselves, to take
       part in national politics, and to defend their rights against
       those in power as people in countries with higher national IQs”
       (p.270). The peoples of low-IQ countries may want democracy, but
       they cannot establish and maintain it.
       >
       > ...
       >
       > Prof. Vanhanen concludes otherwise: A high average, rather
       than a tight distribution of IQs is what creates the middle
       class. More intelligent people are better able to defend and
       further their interests and to acquire education, which prevents
       the concentration of power resources. This distribution of
       political power supports the emergence of market economies,
       which help distribute power resources more widely. Standard
       deviation in IQ is probably similar for most countries, but
       those with high averages are more equal and more democratic.
       --- End Quote ---
       Source :
       Who is Capable of Democracy? Posted on August 22, 2020
  HTML https://www.amren.com/news/2020/08/who-is-capable-of-democracy/
       [/quote]
       Continuing
       --- Quote ---
       > According to my theoretical argumentation, this relationship
       is causal. Important power resources tend to become more widely
       distributed in countries for which national IQ is high than in
       countries for which national IQ is low. Intelligence is a factor
       which increases the ability of people to invent new things and
       technologies, to produce more effectively, to work in different
       trades, and to establish organizations to further their various
       interests.
       >
       > ...
       >
       > Nearly all components of the IPR (Index of Power Resources)
       are more strongly correlated with national IQ than with MT (Mean
       Temperature). The highest correlation is between national IQ and
       tertiary and the weakest correlation between national IQ and FF,
       National IQ explains 59 percent of the variation in tertiary,
       but only 8 percent of the variation in FF. IR is much more
       strongly correlated with national IQ (0.818) than ER (0.562).
       >
       > ...
       >
       > The IPR (Index of Power Resources) is assumed to be a crucial
       intervening variable in the hypothesized relationship between
       mean temperature and ID. Therefore it is important to explore to
       what extent the variation in the IPR is due to the variation in
       national IQ and mean temperature. The results of correlation
       analysis support the assumption that a substantial part of the
       variation in resource distribution (IPR) can be traced via
       differences in the average mental abilities of populations
       (national IQ) to differences in climatic conditions (MT).
       Because the IPR explains nearly 70 percent of the variation in
       the degree of democratization (ID) in this group of 172
       countries, the results support the argument that a significant
       part of the variation in ID can be traced to differences in mean
       temperature via intervening variables.
       >
       > ...
       >
       > The results of this multiple regression analysis indicate that
       national IQ does not explain anything of the variation in
       ID-2006 that is independent from the impact of the IPR. The
       coefficient of national IQ is not statistically significant. The
       impact of national IQ (Intelligence Quotient) on ID-2006
       (Democracy Index) seems to be completely mediated by IPR. The
       multiple correlation 0.815 is practically the same as the simple
       correlation between IPR and ID-2006 (0.813). Although the
       correlation between national IQ and ID-2006 is 0.575, the impact
       of national IQ on ID is insignificantly independent from the IPR
       functions as an intervening mechanism in the hypothesized causal
       connection between national IQ and ID. MT and national IQ do not
       increase the explained part of variation in ID-2006
       independently from the IPR, but are both needed to explain
       variation in the IPR? The multiple regression analysis in which
       MT and national IQ are used as independent variables and the IPR
       as the dependent variable answers this question (Table 3.8).
       >
       > ...
       >
       > The definition of the four variables intended to measure
       annual mean temperature, differences in the average intelligence
       of nations, the
       > distribution of intellectual and economic power resources, and
       the level Variables 41 of democratization makes it possible to
       transform the original hypotheses formulated in Chapter 1 into
       testable research hypotheses.
       >
       > 1. The higher the annual mean temperature (MT), the more the
       > values of national IQ, IPR, and the index of democratization
       > (ID) tend to decrease.
       >
       > 2. The higher the national IQ, the more the degree of resource
       > distribution (the IPR and the mean) and the level of
       democratization
       > (ID) tend to rise.
       >
       > 3. The higher the degree of resource distribution (IPR), the
       more
       > the level of democratization (ID) tends to rise.
       >
       > ...
       >
       > The average level and quality of democracy rose systematically
       with the level of national IQ in all cases, and thus the results
       support the basic argument on the constraining power of national
       IQ. The quality of democracy tends to rise with the level of
       national IQ no matter which indicator is used to measure the
       quality of democracy. However, it was also noted that many
       countries deviate significantly from the average pattern at all
       levels of national IQ.
       >
       > Finally, in Chapters 9-17, descriptive country reviews were
       used to Ilustrate the variation in the level and quality of
       democracy between the seven national IQ categories. The nature
       of each country’s political system was described briefly from
       the perspective of democratic governance. Country reviews show
       great differences in the level and quality of democracy between
       the countries of the two lowest and two highest national IQ
       categories. Political systems tend to be less democratic and
       more violent and corrupted at low levels of national IQ than at
       high levels. Similar systematic differences emerge in political
       rights and liberties, the rule of law, and the security of
       people between the low and high levels of national IQ, but
       country reviews also show that many countries deviate more or
       less from these average patterns. This implies that there is
       room for human choices and that the quality of democratic
       governance is not strictly tied to the average intelligence of
       the population.
       >
       > ...
       >
       > Political systems adapt to environmental constraints in the
       continual process of natural selection in politics, and this
       process of adaptation produces different institutional
       arrangements and behavior patterns. People in countries with low
       national IQs are not as able to organize themselves, to take
       part in national politics, and to defend their interests and
       rights against those in power as people in countries with higher
       national IQs. This difference is reflected in the quality of
       democracy.
       --- End Quote ---
       Source :
       The Limits of Democratization: Climate, Intelligence, and
       Resource Distribution by Tatu Vanhanen page 45, 47, 51, 53, 54,
       55, 56, 260, 270
       #Post#: 24416--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Western Democracy
   DIR By: antihellenistic
       Date: December 12, 2023, 10:25 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Democracy cannot work on multi-ethnic and "low intelligence"
       society
       For example :
       Uganda
       --- Quote ---
       > Uganda provides an example of a restricted democracy in an
       ethnically very heterogeneous country. The largest tribal group,
       the Baganda, does not comprise more than 17 percent of the
       population. Because of the fierce tribal competition, it was not
       possible to stabilize democratic institutions and a party system
       adapted to tribal divisions during the first decades of
       independence. Finally, Yoweri Museveni’s National Resistance
       Movement routed other military forces in 1986 and restored peace
       based on the hegemony of his military and political movement
       (cf. Kokole and Mazrui 1988). In 1996, Museveni legalized his
       power position through a competitive presidential election, and
       in the 2001 presidential election Uganda crossed the threshold
       of democracy. Political parties were still banned, but
       presidential elections were competitive. This kind of restricted
       democracy might be better adapted to some African countries than
       a full democracy allowing party competition along ethnic lines.
       However, Uganda’s system may be less stable than Botswana’s
       dominant party system for the reason that Uganda’s system is
       crucially- based on Museveni’s personality. By a referendum in
       2005, the establishment of political parties became legal, and a
       multiparty system emerged in Uganda (see Banks et al. 2007, pp.
       1272-1276).
       --- End Quote ---
       Senegal
       --- Quote ---
       > Senegal provides an example of a successful path to
       democratization through a dominant party system. The Socialist
       Party established by Leopold Senghor ruled without opposition
       until the 1978 elections when some opposition parties were
       allowed to take part in elections (cf. Coulon 1988). Since the
       1993 election, Senegal was only slightly below the participation
       threshold of democracy, and finally in the 2000 presidential
       election the opposition’s candidate won the presidency. The fact
       that the largest tribe (Wolof) comprises nearly half of the
       population supported the survival of the dominant party system,
       but ultimately it was not enough to stabilize it. Ghana and
       Nigeria are examples of countries in which it has been very
       difficult to adapt political institutions and party systems to
       the requirements of the ethnic heterogeneity of their
       populations (cf. Chazan 1988; Diamond 1988).
       >
       > From the perspective of democracy, a parliamentary system of
       government and a multiparty system adapted to the ethnic
       divisions of the population might be best suited to the plural
       societies of sub-Saharan Africa, but in practice these
       institutions may not function as expected. The experience shows
       that African ethnic parties have quite often been unable to
       agree on the democratic sharing of power and on the basic rules
       of the game in democratic politics. Disagreements have led to
       violent clashes and breakdowns of democratic institutions. It is
       worthwhile to experiment with fully democratic political
       institutions, but if they repeatedly fail in practice, it might
       be useful to consider how to establish a less democratic but
       more functional political system. Perhaps it would be possible
       to establish a political system that combines dominance by one
       group and some kind of representation of various tribal and
       regional interest groups. From the perspective of such a
       compromise, a strong presidency based on the support of the
       dominant ethnic or regional group, on the support of a dominant
       party, or on the support of the military might be a more
       practicable governmental system than a fully parliamentary
       system presupposing cooperation between ethnically based
       parties. Political rights and civil liberties would be more
       restricted in such dominance systems than in full democracies,
       but they might be able to guarantee civil peace and legal order.
       --- End Quote ---
       Source :
       The Limits of Democratization: Climate, Intelligence, and
       Resource Distribution by Tatu Vanhanen page 264, 265, 266
  HTML https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71tNWW237mL._SL1374_.jpg
       Therefore Hitler's governmental system were proper for
       multi-ethnic and "low-intelligence" society. And if sun
       environment "lowering intelligence" and "decrease democracy",
       then Hitler were man of the sun, not man of the cold-climate
       #Post#: 24417--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Western Democracy
   DIR By: 90sRetroFan
       Date: December 12, 2023, 11:06 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       "Democracy cannot work properly on people with low intelligence"
       But what does "work properly" actually mean? When the majority
       votes to prohibit immigration (e.g. Denmark), that is democracy
       working properly (as Aristotle intended). So do we want a
       democracy that works properly or a democracy that doesn't work
       properly? I want the latter.
       You yourself posted:
  HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/demographic-blueshift/msg21417/#msg21417
       --- Quote ---
       >
  HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/46490063d4b7d85d7f18eecd1d681c0e/ef518d77278aa371-d3/s640x960/a3b79aacba281da1619842b7f0b7d5a3aa6d680e.jpg
       --- End Quote ---
       Which one shows democracy working properly? Which one shows
       democracy not working properly? Which one do we want?
       "Hitler's governmental system were proper for multi-ethnic and
       "low-intelligence" society. And if sun environment "lowering
       intelligence" and "decrease democracy", then Hitler were man of
       the sun, not man of the cold-climate"
       No, you have it backwards. Germany started off as an Ice People
       country, therefore a democratic Germany would work properly and
       hence become more and more rightist, which is what we don't
       want. This is why we consider it a good thing for Hitler to rule
       Germany autocratically, since this is the best way to make it
       more leftist which is what we want. It is Ice People countries
       (where democracy would work properly) which most need autocracy
       (with a leftist dictator), not Sun People countries (in which
       democracy would not work properly anyway).
       On the other hand, when no suitable individual like Hitler is
       available, the next best way to make Ice People countries more
       leftist is to get democracy to stop working properly by
       importing new voters from Sun People habitats to outnumber the
       Ice People voters.
       #Post#: 24440--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Western Democracy
   DIR By: 90sRetroFan
       Date: December 14, 2023, 6:03 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Democracy working properly a month ago:
  HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-false-left/western-democracy/msg16458/?topicseen#msg16458
       --- Quote ---
       > Nearly seven out of ten French people believe that the state
       should adopt a stricter policy regarding the reception of
       migrants
       --- End Quote ---
       Democracy working even more properly now:
  HTML https://rmx.news/migration/80-of-french-support-ban-on-more-immigration-two-thirds-back-referendum/
       --- Quote ---
       > According to the survey conducted by the CSA Institute for
       CNEWS published on Tuesday, 80 percent of people in France want
       a ban on immigration, compared with just 19 percent in favor of
       further new arrivals.
       >
       > Opposition to more mass immigration is the majority view among
       all age groups. The most welcoming demographic is younger
       people; however, 68 percent remain against more immigration
       compared to 31 percent in favor.
       > ...
       > While opposition to mass immigration is almost unanimous among
       right-leaning voters — 100 percent of Éric Zemmour’s Reconquête
       and 98 percent of National Rally voters are against it — an
       increasing number of left-wing sympathizers are also questioning
       the number of new arrivals into France.
       >
       > A total of 56 percent of left-wing voters oppose more
       immigration, with the only slim majorities in favor found among
       supporters of the Radical Party of the Left (55 percent), LFI
       (55 percent), and the Greens (52 percent)
       --- End Quote ---
       This is why the real danger is democracy working properly, and
       not democracy not working properly.
       #Post#: 24593--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Western Democracy
   DIR By: rp
       Date: December 27, 2023, 6:10 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
  HTML https://twitter.com/dharma__vijay/status/1739882190086058431?t=zPG0yXsZxUTlSKe4bBvJTQ&s=19
       [Quote]
       No. All our lack of civic sense boils down to democracy and
       diversity. Civic sense needs some amount of enforcement in
       diverse countries. In India can't enforce because the
       misbehaving chap would be from a community which is a vote bank.
       So no action will be taken.
  HTML https://twitter.com/GabbbarSingh/status/1739874687952544235?t=Y3Jj-MRfkqQKoUiSseNipg&s=19
       [Quote]
       Can India ever reach this level of Civic sense? Ever?
       *****************************************************
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