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#Post#: 21622--------------------------------------------------
Hyam Maccoby
By: SirGalahad Date: August 21, 2023, 3:46 am
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@90sRetroFan What are your thoughts on Hyam Maccoby? He’s a
Jewish scholar that agrees that Paul corrupted Jesus’s
teachings, except he comes to the complete opposite conclusion
and states that Jesus was an observant Jew who preached to other
Jews and never intended to create a religion distinct from
Judaism, and that a lot of his teachings supposedly fell in line
with the mainstream Judaism of his time. And that it was Paul
who chose to bring gentiles into the fold of the religion, and
added gentile pagan, as well as Gnostic elements. He goes so far
as to say that Paul was a convert to Judaism who followed the
religion poorly, or even a gentile who was never Jewish in the
first place
HTML https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyam_Maccoby
Outside of all his other claims, the claim that Paul was somehow
influenced by Gnosticism in the direction that he took
Christianity is interesting to me, because it’s also a view
point that I see a lot of Gnostics claim online. That Paul was
on “our” general side, in that sense. I of course do not believe
this.
I see people citing one of Maccoby’s books, “The Mythmaker: Paul
and the Invention of Christianity” and some of his other books
in places like r/academicbiblical, so I have a feeling that this
will be a position that we have to get a grasp of. I was aware
of anti-Paul Muslims, as well as our breed of anti-Paulism, but
I wasn’t aware that this particular breed of anti-Paulism until
just now
#Post#: 21624--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hyam Maccoby
By: 90sRetroFan Date: August 21, 2023, 4:17 am
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[quote]He believed that Jesus was executed as a rebel against
the Roman occupation of Judaea. However, he did not claim that
Jesus was the leader of an actual armed rebellion. Rather, Jesus
and his followers, inspired by the Tanakh or Old Testament
prophetic writings, were expecting a supernatural divine
intervention that would end Roman rule, restore the Davidic
Kingdom with Jesus as the divinely anointed monarch and
inaugurate the Messianic age of peace and prosperity for the
whole world. Those expectations were not fulfilled, and Jesus
was arrested and executed by the Romans.[/quote]
Looks like an attempt to shift the blame for killing Jesus away
from Jews.....
In any case, it is possible technically to argue that Jesus
taught Judaism by claiming that all of Jesus' anti-Judaic quotes
are fabrications by Paul. But then why are the most clearly
anti-Judaic Jesus quotes found in the Apocryphal Gospels ie. the
Gospels that Paul decided to exclude from the New Testament? If
Paul was a Gnostic whose aim was to dishonestly portray Jesus as
a Gnostic teacher, then why not include the Apocryphal Gospels
(and if anything exclude Matthew, Mark and Luke instead)?
#Post#: 21625--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hyam Maccoby
By: SirGalahad Date: August 21, 2023, 4:36 am
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Which apocryphal texts do you think hold the most weight and are
worth looking into? As far as I’m aware, a lot of non-Gnostic
and Gnostic apocryphal texts were written at later dates
compared to the what we now consider the biblical “canon”. So
I’d like your input on that, since I haven’t delved all that
much into this sort of thing yet
#Post#: 21626--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hyam Maccoby
By: 90sRetroFan Date: August 21, 2023, 5:07 am
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HTML http://www.sofiatopia.org/equiaeon/thomas.htm
HTML https://ia801406.us.archive.org/34/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.92631/2015.92631.The-Gospel-Of-The-Holy-Twelve.pdf
#Post#: 21627--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hyam Maccoby
By: SirGalahad Date: August 21, 2023, 8:35 am
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Also, another thing: I see a lot of people claiming that Paul
was the one who made Christianity a universal religion, and that
had he not taken control of the religion, it probably would’ve
remained a minor Jewish sect. And on its face, I can see where
they’re coming from, because as far as I’m aware, there really
isn’t much of Jesus directly preaching to non-Jews in the Bible.
Some people point out how a lot of the passages talking about
spreading the word to gentiles are from Paul’s texts, or the
texts inspired by Paul (and attributed to him
pseudepigraphically). The texts that aren’t attributed to Paul
or inspired by him, have an awful lot of the “I was only sent to
the lost sheep of the house of Israel” talk. It’s kind of hard
to ignore the fact that at least in the New Testament, Jesus
himself never really mentions preaching to non-Jews, but he DOES
explicitly mention preaching to Jews multiple times. The
farthest his interactions with non-Jews seem to go, is
performing a couple miracles for them here and there.
I don’t know. I feel like the more I look into this stuff, the
less faith that I have that it’s salvageable for us. The closest
thing we have to a smoking gun is the Gospel of Thomas. Because
it rivals the other canonical gospels in how early it was
composed, so it does have credibility to its authenticity. And
it’s the only text of its kind that doesn’t reference Judaism
and doesn’t seem to be influenced by it. The Gospel of the Holy
Twelve, I WANT to believe that it’s authentic, but the backstory
behind its existence is kind of sketchy. And even if I WERE to
take it at face value, it references Jewish prophets and Jewish
laws and doctrines just as much as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John
do.
#Post#: 21628--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hyam Maccoby
By: 90sRetroFan Date: August 21, 2023, 1:10 pm
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"Jesus himself never really mentions preaching to non-Jews, but
he DOES explicitly mention preaching to Jews multiple times."
Jesus' main objective was to try to convince Jews that tribalism
is wrong. If we believe:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/ancient-world/gnosticism/msg17903/#msg17903
there would have been no reason for Jesus to feel a particular
need to preach to non-Jews, since he would have assumed that
they would hear about Buddhism eventually. Had Jesus spent his
time preaching to non-Jews, he would have been just one of many
Buddhist missionaries. But he estimated that Buddhism would have
a harder time penetrating into Jewish society at the time since
it would have been dismissed as polytheistic. Thus he deduced
that the most efficient use of his time was to preach
anti-tribalist ideas to those least likely to otherwise bother
to listen to them.
Moreover, Jesus advocated celibacy. Thus by preaching mainly to
Jews, he would have (if successful) caused Jews to
demographically vanish faster than non-Jews. This is consistent
with what we want to happen!
#Post#: 21645--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hyam Maccoby
By: christianbethel Date: August 22, 2023, 12:44 pm
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[quote author=90sRetroFan link=topic=2127.msg21624#msg21624
date=1692609472]
[quote]He believed that Jesus was executed as a rebel against
the Roman occupation of Judaea. However, he did not claim that
Jesus was the leader of an actual armed rebellion. Rather, Jesus
and his followers, inspired by the Tanakh or Old Testament
prophetic writings, were expecting a supernatural divine
intervention that would end Roman rule, restore the Davidic
Kingdom with Jesus as the divinely anointed monarch and
inaugurate the Messianic age of peace and prosperity for the
whole world. Those expectations were not fulfilled, and Jesus
was arrested and executed by the Romans.[/quote]
Looks like an attempt to shift the blame for killing Jesus away
from Jews.....
In any case, it is possible technically to argue that Jesus
taught Judaism by claiming that all of Jesus' anti-Judaic quotes
are fabrications by Paul. But then why are the most clearly
anti-Judaic Jesus quotes found in the Apocryphal Gospels ie. the
Gospels that Paul decided to exclude from the New Testament? If
Paul was a Gnostic whose aim was to dishonestly portray Jesus as
a Gnostic teacher, then why not include the Apocryphal Gospels
(and if anything exclude Matthew, Mark and Luke instead)?
[/quote]
Why would Matthew, Mark, and Luke be excluded from the New
Testament?
#Post#: 21647--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hyam Maccoby
By: 90sRetroFan Date: August 22, 2023, 1:31 pm
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In order to remove rivals to John, which is the only one
regarded as acceptable to Gnostics.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_Gospels
[quote]The gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke are referred to as
the synoptic Gospels because they include many of the same
stories, often in a similar sequence and in similar or sometimes
identical wording. They stand in contrast to John, whose content
is largely distinct.[/quote]
Recall from main site:
[quote]“We have said various times: we know nothing about what
the Cathars were in reality, a sect that appeared in Occitania,
along the Catalan Pyrenees, in Carcasonne and other cities of
the south. Montsegur was their fortress-temple. Otto Rahn thinks
Montsegur was Munsalvaesche, the Castle and Mountain of the
Gral. He also claims the Cathars were Druids converted to
Manicheanism. They are said to have practiced magic, believe in
reincarnation, were vegetarians and had a dualist concept of the
world. Among the Gospels they only accepted Saint John. For them
the demon was Jehovah, creator Demiurge of this world. None of
this is certain, because nothing is known for certain about the
Cathars. Otto Rahn believes some troubadours were commissioned
by them to spread a certain type of Love initiation in code,
that “personal aristocratic religion.” Papal Rome declared the
Cathars heretics and ended by annihilating them. Their writings
were burned.” – Miguel Serrano
“The struggles and fate of this huge sect of the Cathars had
always interested me and, on closer acquaintance, moved me
deeply. A queer movement, combining the religious desire for
freedom of will and character which was essentially West Gothic,
with the late Iranian mysticism that had reached France by way
of Italy after the crusaders had come in contact with the
Orient. Since the Cathars, that is, the pure ones, wanted to
remain Christians, they chose from among the various epistles
that of John. Against the religion of the worldly power of the
Church of Peter they upheld the teachings of the Baraclete, the
Merciful Saviour and God of Mercy. They rejected the Old
Testament, avoided the use of any and all Jewish names — a
significant attitude, different from that of the later
Calvinists and Puritans who also searched for the pure teachings
— and shunned even the name of Mary. The crucifix to them
appeared an unworthy symbol since, they claimed, nobody would
venerate the rope with which a human being, even though he be a
martyr, had been hanged.” – Alfred Rosenberg[/quote]
If Paul was a Gnostic, he should have done the same. He did not
because he was not.
#Post#: 21650--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hyam Maccoby
By: christianbethel Date: August 22, 2023, 2:13 pm
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Hmm. Didn't you mention a while back that everything except the
Gospels should be removed from the Bible?
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/ancient-world/gospel-of-thomas-why-is-it-not-in-the-bible/?message=12619<br
/>
#Post#: 21651--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hyam Maccoby
By: 90sRetroFan Date: August 22, 2023, 2:27 pm
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Yes. I never said anything about necessarily keeping all the
Gospels.
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