DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
True Left
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Questions & Debates
*****************************************************
#Post#: 1670--------------------------------------------------
Merits (Or Lack Thereof?) of Preserving Linguistic Diversity
DIR By: SirGalahad
Date: October 21, 2020, 1:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm a linguist, and have always been interested in languages and
the diversity to be found among human language. However, an
acquaintance argues that it would be preferable if everyone
spoke the same language, rather than merely reinforcing national
languages above regional languages as proposed in the
Communication article on the main site. I instinctively object
to this idea because the world would be far more boring if the
entire world spoke one language, but I can't really object to
the idea that if everyone shared a language in common, it'd be
possible to communicate with far more people. The person I'm
debating with has even taken it a step further by claiming that
not only should everyone agree on a common language, but that
everyone should speak the same language on a native level, since
knowing 2 or more languages at the same time, and trying to
maintain proficiency in all of them, is less efficient. Any
thoughts on this, and whether or not nations should in fact
preserve their own unique languages at all?
#Post#: 1684--------------------------------------------------
Re: Merits (Or Lack Thereof?) of Preserving Linguistic Diversity
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: October 22, 2020, 12:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
We are not preservationists in principle. We do not believe the
mere fact that something already exists is a reason for it to be
preserved. The burden of justification should always be on those
wishing to preserve, not on those wishing to simplify, since
preservation requires continual effort whereas simplification
requires a once-only effort.
"the world would be far more boring if the entire world spoke
one language"
Argument from boredom could potentially be used to justify any
form and any degree of complexification, which is why we reject
this argument. (Most of the macro-problems caused by Western
civilization can be traced to Westerners considering the
existing arrangement too boring and therefore becoming motivated
to add new things.)
I would say that the world would be far more simple if everyone
spoke one language, and simplification is what we value.
However, the hard part is deciding (and achieving agreement on!)
which language is to be the one language everyone would speak.
Even among people who value simplification, there is bound to be
divergence of opinion over which one language to keep, which is
likely to take a long time to resolve. Therefore I am OK with
leaving this disagreement for later, at least until the people
who value simplification have collectively defeated the people
who value complexification.
"whether or not nations should in fact preserve their own unique
languages at all?"
The only valid argument for preservation of languages is fear
that we might discard better languages in favour of worse ones,
and hence end up unable to retrieve languages that we later
realize we would have preferred to keep (had we known better).
Therefore I am generally not in a hurry to start actively
phasing out languages, given the current circumstances.
From the perspective of Original Nobility, however, we were all
born not knowing any language. That is what we should ultimately
be trying to get back to as an ideal. Learning multiple
languages can be good, but only if in so doing we further
convince ourselves that no language can ever be satisfactory for
expressing our true feelings. But the moment you start to become
attached to the languages themselves, instead of remembering
that they are all nothing but extremely bad ways to approximate
what we feel, you are already on the slippery slope.
#Post#: 1689--------------------------------------------------
Re: Merits (Or Lack Thereof?) of Preserving Linguistic Diversity
DIR By: guest5
Date: October 22, 2020, 12:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Interestingly, this article was published yesterday. Note in the
very opening sentence there is no mention of feelings or
emotions. I suppose emotions are just information then?:
Cognitive elements of language have existed for 40 million years
--- Quote ---
> Language is one of the most powerful tools available to
humankind, as it enables us to share information, culture, views
and technology. "Research into language evolution is thus
crucial if we want to understand what it means to be human,"
says Stuart Watson, postdoctoral researcher at the Department of
Comparative Language Science of the University of Zurich. Until
now, however, little research has been conducted about how this
unique communication system came to be.
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/10/201021180740.htm
#Post#: 1692--------------------------------------------------
Re: Merits (Or Lack Thereof?) of Preserving Linguistic Diversity
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: October 22, 2020, 3:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
One reason why I like retro arcade games is that playing them is
one of the easiest ways for my mind to revert to non-language
thinking, because language thinking is too slow (by the time you
describe to yourself in words what is happening on the screen
and what you need to do next, you are already dead). You can
also learn how to play a game well just from watching a better
player play, without the better player ever needing to explain
anything in words.
Similarly, I believe it should be possible to learn skills like
subsistence farming etc. from observation and imitation alone,
without language required. This is worth trying at some point in
future after we have defeated all our enemies.
The conclusion should be that everything that requires language
to learn is not something we should want to learn in the first
place.
#Post#: 1694--------------------------------------------------
Re: Merits (Or Lack Thereof?) of Preserving Linguistic Diversity
DIR By: SirGalahad
Date: October 22, 2020, 5:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
@90sRetroFan That makes sense. But if our end goal is ultimate
simplicity, then why only extend it to language? The forums and
the main site seem to advocate each nation using their own
culturally specific clothing and architecture. Wouldn't it be
simpler if the entire Aryan world were governed under one
nation, with said nation possessing one culture, one form of
architecture, one style of clothing, etc? The issue with that
though, is that it would be kind of confusing to claim to be
nationalistic, yet advocate the eventual dissolution of nations
and have Aryans governed under one roof instead. Because while I
agree with the sentiment that people who side against the
colonialists are more American, it feels sort of contradictory
in my mind to emphasize Americanness if we're ultimately
discarding national cultures as well. I'm just wondering what
your end goal is, because I wanna gain a better understanding of
the sort of role that nations play under National Socialism, and
Aryanism as a whole. Do you see them as having a shelf life as
it pertains to our ideology? Is emphasizing culturally and
regionally specific architecture/clothing/art/aesthetics, and
advocating for national self-determination and autarky only a
means to an end (as protest against colonialism and Western
influence), with the total unification I just described being
the end goal?
#Post#: 1695--------------------------------------------------
Re: Merits (Or Lack Thereof?) of Preserving Linguistic Diversity
DIR By: guest5
Date: October 22, 2020, 5:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I know your response is directed at 90SRF, but I just wanted to
interject.
I always viewed tribalism as a step backward and the
nation-state as a step forward. This is not to imply that a
'step-backward' is always a bad thing either, but in the case of
tribalism it is because if we all practiced tribalism there
would be never ending war. I don't believe the nation-state is
the end goal, just a step in the right direction toward
something even better.
HTML https://quotefancy.com/media/wallpaper/3840x2160/3429965-Arthur-Keith-Quote-Human-nature-as-manifested-in-tribalism-and.jpg
Just reading what others have had to say about tribalism versus
nationalism on the internet leads me to believe most people have
no clue what they are talking about in regards to both:
HTML https://quotefancy.com/media/wallpaper/3840x2160/2744149-Cornel-West-Quote-I-loathe-nationalism-It-is-a-form-of-tribalism.jpg
You are either a tribalist or a nationalist, a person cannot be
both at the same time. This should be so obvious it shouldn't
need to be pointed out....
#Post#: 1697--------------------------------------------------
Re: Merits (Or Lack Thereof?) of Preserving Linguistic Diversity
DIR By: SirGalahad
Date: October 22, 2020, 6:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
@NuminousSun I agree entirely. It drives me up the wall when
people confuse nationalism for jingoism or chauvinism. I hear
"Nationalism is patriotism taken too far" or "Nationalists are
those who side with their government right or wrong" so often.
And it certainly doesn't help that as time progresses, the
"official" definitions for nationalism become increasingly more
negative. Perhaps that is an expected response, considering how
much racists have soiled the concept by coopting it. But I hope
that we're eventually able to clear things up
#Post#: 1713--------------------------------------------------
Re: Merits (Or Lack Thereof?) of Preserving Linguistic Diversity
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: October 23, 2020, 12:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"why only extend it to language?"
We do not.
"The forums and the main site seem to advocate each nation using
their own culturally specific clothing and architecture."
Only for now.
"Wouldn't it be simpler if the entire Aryan world were governed
under one nation, with said nation possessing one culture, one
form of architecture, one style of clothing, etc?"
Eventually, yes, but if we try to do this too early, we will run
into the same disagreement as I anticipated we would have with
language: which one style do we keep? This is why I am willing
to put off this issue so long as we are still busy trying to
defeat our common enemies.
"it would be kind of confusing to claim to be nationalistic, yet
advocate the eventual dissolution of nations and have Aryans
governed under one roof instead."
If we are lost inside a maze with 10 people in area A and 10
people in another area B distant from A, the most efficient way
to get everyone to the exit is to direct the 10 people in A to
gather somewhere in A, and the 10 people in B to gather
somewhere in B, and only then move the gathered group in A and
the gathered group in B towards the exit.
Gathering the people into local groups is nationalism. Moving
the gathered groups towards the exit is Aryanism. The two groups
may meet each other along the way, or they may not meet until
reaching the exit. The important thing is that each group
receives the correct directions towards the exit relative to
their respective (different) starting points. If, however, we
try to give the two groups identical directions for the sheer
sake of giving them identical directions, at least one group
will not reach the exit. The only correct time to start giving
the two groups identical directions is if they happen to have
met along the way. But we must also avoid forcing them to meet
along the way for the sheer sake of meeting along the way, as
doing so might involve taking them somewhere cut off from the
exit.
"while I agree with the sentiment that people who side against
the colonialists are more American, it feels sort of
contradictory in my mind to emphasize Americanness if we're
ultimately discarding national cultures as well."
Imagine area A above is the New World. To be anti-colonialist
without being pro-American would be like saying: "Look at the
people over in area B! Just do exactly what they are doing!" Do
you think that will work? (For the sake of visualization,
imagine B is in pitch darkness, so the people in B have to start
a fire for illumination before they can even get a sense of
direction. A, on the other hand, is not only already
well-illuminated, but also constructed entirely from flammable
materials.....)
"Is emphasizing culturally and regionally specific
architecture/clothing/art/aesthetics, and advocating for
national self-determination and autarky only a means to an end
(as protest against colonialism and Western influence)"
Yes.
"with the total unification I just described being the end
goal?"
Reaching the exit is the end goal. If everyone reaches the exit,
there will be unification as a side-effect, whether this
unification occurs before the exit is reached or at the point
when the exit is reached. But unification at a point other than
the exit is not necessarily success, especially not if it occurs
at a point from which there is no route to the exit.
#Post#: 1714--------------------------------------------------
Re: Merits (Or Lack Thereof?) of Preserving Linguistic Diversity
DIR By: SirGalahad
Date: October 23, 2020, 3:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, that clears things up a lot. I've been wrestling with
the two topics in this thread for a while now
#Post#: 2596--------------------------------------------------
Re: Merits (Or Lack Thereof?) of Preserving Linguistic Diversity
DIR By: guest27
Date: December 1, 2020, 1:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
>
> One reason why I like retro arcade games is that playing them
is one of the easiest ways for my mind to revert to non-language
thinking, because language thinking is too slow (by the time you
describe to yourself in words what is happening on the screen
and what you need to do next, you are already dead). You can
also learn how to play a game well just from watching a better
player play, without the better player ever needing to explain
anything in words.
>
> Similarly, I believe it should be possible to learn skills
like subsistence farming etc. from observation and imitation
alone, without language required. This is worth trying at some
point in future after we have defeated all our enemies.
>
> The conclusion should be that everything that requires
language to learn is not something we should want to learn in
the first place.
>
--- End Quote ---
I feel this so hard. Words are painfully slow and clunky. Maybe
I should blame this for the reason why I often have to read the
same basic as **** sentence several times in order to grasp it,
because I'm just not fond of pacing my thoughts and decrypting
things.
I wonder if we should transition to communicating moreso in
images. The human animal is predominantly visual; and this, in
contrast to cetaceans who are so specialized in aural
communication, they're likely able to replicate sonar messages
to project an auditory "image" of the object they wish to
describe.
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 1