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#Post#: 1633--------------------------------------------------
Help With Reconciling Islam and the Other Aryan Faiths
DIR By: SirGalahad
Date: October 19, 2020, 10:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Lately, I've been trying to piece together the discrepancies
between Islam and the other Aryan faiths. I fully support all
attempts at uniting these religions under pan-gnosticism, but
one issue that I've run into is that Islam preaches total
monotheism (Tawhid), whereas the Gnostics venerate figures such
as Sophia and the Aeons alongside the Monad. Muslims also do not
believe in dualism, where a Demiurge stands in direct opposition
to God, nor does there seem to be any mention of
reincarnation/rebirth in the Quran. In that sense, aren't
Gnosticism and Islam incompatible? Another religion that I find
hard to reconcile with Islam is Atenism. Wouldn't Akhenaten have
been considered a heretic as well? The sun is an extremely
important symbol and figure to the movement, so it just wouldn't
sit right with me that veneration of the sun is considered a
heresy. And what about the pantheon of gods that are sympathetic
to our cause that this site mentions, who oppose the nature
gods? Are they not worthy of consideration? They play a fairly
big role in Aryan myths. This is just difficult to make sense
of, because as far as I know, there isn't a Muslim equivalent to
the Nag Hammadi Library. Gnostic Christianity and Buddhism go
together quite nicely, but there appears to be a larger gap
between the first two and Islam. I would appreciate any help,
because this has been weighing on my mind for a long time.
#Post#: 1637--------------------------------------------------
Re: Help With Reconciling Islam and the Other Aryan Faiths
DIR By: guest5
Date: October 19, 2020, 11:48 pm
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--- Quote from: SirGalahad link ---
>
> Lately, I've been trying to piece together the discrepancies
between Islam and the other Aryan faiths. I fully support all
attempts at uniting these religions under pan-gnosticism, but
one issue that I've run into is that Islam preaches total
monotheism (Tawhid), whereas the Gnostics venerate figures such
as Sophia and the Aeons [i]alongside the Monad. Muslims also do
not believe in dualism, where a Demiurge stands in direct
opposition to God, nor does there seem to be any mention of
reincarnation/rebirth in the Quran. In that sense, aren't
Gnosticism and Islam incompatible? Another religion that I find
hard to reconcile with Islam is Atenism. Wouldn't Akhenaten have
been considered a heretic as well? The sun is an extremely
important symbol and figure to the movement, so it just wouldn't
sit right with me that veneration of the sun is considered a
heresy. And what about the pantheon of gods that are sympathetic
to our cause that this site mentions, who oppose the nature
gods? Are they not worthy of consideration? They play a fairly
big role in Aryan myths. This is just difficult to make sense
of, because as far as I know, there isn't a Muslim equivalent to
the Nag Hammadi Library. Gnostic Christianity and Buddhism go
together quite nicely, but there appears to be a larger gap
between the first two and Islam. I would appreciate any help,
because this has been weighing on my mind for a long time.[/i]
>
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> Zoroastrianism or Mazdayasna is one of the world's oldest
continuously practiced religions. It is a multi-faceted faith
centered on a dualistic cosmology of good and evil and an
eschatology predicting the ultimate conquest of evil with
theological elements of henotheism, monotheism/monism, and
polytheism.[1][2][3][4] Ascribed to the teachings of the
Iranian-speaking spiritual leader Zoroaster (also known as
Zarathushtra),[5] it exalts an uncreated and benevolent deity of
wisdom, Ahura Mazda (Wise Lord), as its supreme being.[6]
Historical features of Zoroastrianism, such as messianism,
judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will may have
influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including
Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Greek philosophy,[7]
Christianity, Islam,[8] the Baháʼí Faith, and Buddhism.[9]
>
> With possible roots dating back to the second millennium BCE,
Zoroastrianism enters recorded history in the 5th century
BCE.[10] It served as the state religion of the ancient Iranian
empires for more than a millennium, from around 600 BCE to 650
CE, but declined from the 7th century onwards following the
Muslim conquest of Persia of 633–654.[11] Recent estimates place
the current number of Zoroastrians at around 110,000–120,000[12]
at most with the majority living in India, Iran, and North
America; their number has been thought to be declining.[13][14]
>
> The most important texts of the religion are those of the
Avesta, which includes as central the writings of Zoroaster
known as the Gathas, enigmatic ritual poems that define the
religion's precepts, which is within Yasna, the main worship
service of modern Zoroastrianism. The religious philosophy of
Zoroaster divided the early Iranian gods of the
Proto-Indo-Iranian tradition into ahuras[15] and daevas,[16] the
latter of which were not considered worthy of worship. Zoroaster
proclaimed that Ahura Mazda was the supreme creator, the
creative and sustaining force of the universe through Asha,[6]
and that human beings are given a right of choice between
supporting Ahura Mazda or not, making them responsible for their
choices. Though Ahura Mazda has no equal contesting force, Angra
Mainyu (destructive spirit/mentality), whose forces are born
from Aka Manah (evil thought), is considered the main
adversarial force of the religion, standing against Spenta
Mainyu (creative spirit/mentality).[17] Middle Persian
literature developed Angra Mainyu further into Ahriman and
advancing him to be the direct adversary to Ahura Mazda.[18]
>
> In Zoroastrianism, Asha (truth, cosmic order), the life force
that originates from Ahura Mazda,[6][19] stands in opposition to
Druj (falsehood, deceit)[20][21] and Ahura Mazda is considered
to be all-good with no evil emanating from the deity.[6] Ahura
Mazda works in gētīg (the visible material realm) and
mēnōg (the invisible spiritual and mental realm)[22]
through the seven (six when excluding Spenta Mainyu) Amesha
Spentas[23] (the direct emanations of Ahura Mazda) and the host
of other Yazatas (literally meaning "worthy of worship"), who
all worship Ahura Mazda in the Avesta and other texts and who
Ahura Mazda requests worship towards in the same texts.[2]
>
> Zoroastrianism is not uniform in theological and philosophical
thought, especially with historical and modern influences having
a significant impact on individual and local beliefs, practices,
values and vocabulary, sometimes merging with tradition and in
other cases displacing it.[24] Modern Zoroastrianism, however,
tends to divide itself into either Reformist or Traditionalist
camps with various smaller movements arising.[25] In
Zoroastrianism, the purpose in life is to become an Ashavan (a
master of Asha) and to bring happiness into the world, which
contributes to the cosmic battle against evil. Zoroastrianism's
core teachings include:
>
> Follow the Threefold Path of Asha: Humata, Huxta, Huvarshta
(Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds).[26]
> Charity is a way of maintaining one's soul aligned to Asha and
to spread happiness.[27]
> The spiritual equality and duty of the genders.[28]
> Being good for the sake of goodness and without the hope of
reward (see Ashem Vohu).
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism
--- Quote ---
> The oldest existing mention of Turan is in the Farvardin
yashts, which are in the Young Avestan language and have been
dated by linguists to approximately 2300 BCE.[13] According to
Gherardo Gnoli, the Avesta contains the names of various tribes
who lived in proximity to each other: "the Airyas [Aryans],
Tuiryas [Turanians], Sairimas [Sarmatians], Sainus [Ashkuns] and
Dahis [Dahae]".[14] In the hymns of the Avesta, the adjective
Tūrya is attached to various enemies of Zoroastrism like
Fraŋrasyan (Shahnameh: Afrāsīāb). The word
occurs only once in the Gathas, but 20 times in the later parts
of the Avesta. The Tuiryas as they were called in Avesta play a
more important role in the Avesta than the Sairimas, Sainus and
Dahis. Zoroaster himself hailed from the Airya people but he
also preached his message to other neighboring tribes.[14][15]
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan
--- Quote ---
> The term “Islam” (submission), popularly and erroneously used
to refer to Mohammedanism as a whole, in fact refers only to the
lowest level of Mohammedanism, which happens to be the most well
known due to its coverage of sociopolitical issues. All who
admit the soundness of loyalty to one god rather than to many,
and who outwardly adhere to the minimum rules of behaviour set
out by Mohammed, are considered Muslims – submitters to God.
Thus Islam on its own is a form of traditionalism without regard
for inner quality, hence cannot be satisfactory for Aryans.
--- End Quote ---
HTML http://aryanism.net/religion/mohammedanism/
--- Quote ---
> Omitting to seek after God, and creation, and things similar
to these, seek for Him from (out of) thyself, and learn who it
is that absolutely appropriates (unto Himself) all things in
thee, and says, "My God my mind, my understanding, my soul, my
body." And learn from whence are sorrow, and joy, and love, and
hatred, and involuntary wakefulness, and involuntary drowsiness,
and involuntary anger, and involuntary affection; and if you
accurately investigate these (points), you will discover (God)
Himself, unity and plurality, in thyself, according to that
tittle, and that He finds the outlet (for Deity) to be from
thyself. — Monoimus, Arabian Gnostic
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoimus
--- Quote ---
> Love of the world is the root of all evil. — Mohammed
>
> The world is a magician greater than Harut and Marut, and you
should avoid it. — Mohammed
>
> This world is a prison for the faithful, but a paradise for
unbelievers. — Mohammed
>
> Nobody who dies and finds good from God would wish to come
back to this world even if he were given the whole world and
everything in it, except the martyr, who – seeing the
superiority of martyrdom – would wish to come back to the world
to be killed again. — Mohammed
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> [b]Nowhere in the Five Pillars is belief in Koranic
infallibility required. As a matter of fact, the Koran was not
compiled until several decades after Mohammed’s death, making it
impossible to tell how much or how little of its content came
from Mohammed himself. Of particular suspicion is that Ali’s
personal manuscript – submitted only six months after Mohammed’s
death, thus likely the most accurate version - was immediately
rejected, and burned following the release of the ‘official’
Uthmanic version. (Some claim that Ali kept a second, secret
text (the Jamia) of Mohammed’s teachings, which will reappear to
the world during the end times.) In terms of content, the
Uthmanic Koran gives itself away as corrupted by recognizing
many Judaic teachers as “prophets”, even though Mohammed himself
explicitly stated that the Jews killed every prophet ever sent
to them, implying that Mohammed only recognized John and Jesus
(since they were the only two killed by Jews) as genuine
prophets (prior to himself) among all those who had preached to
Jews.
--- End Quote ---
HTML http://aryanism.net/religion/mohammedanism/
(I have not read more than the introduction to the following
page, but I think the introduction is fitting for your
questions):
--- Quote ---
> WHEN Mohammad established Islâm in Arabia he insisted that he
was not proclaiming a new religion, for he believed that all the
prophets who preceded him had brought the same message. From
time to time God had sent prophets and had revealed His will in
sacred books; but men were rebellious, and so it was necessary
for Him periodically to send a new prophet to lead them back to
the truth. Mohammad had no sense of any gradual development in
the knowledge of God, for he held that a knowledge of the true
religion had been given to man from the beginning. The reason
why God needed to send prophets with fresh revelations was
because men had fallen away from the truth and required to be
called back to it. Thus men like Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and
himself had all the same task set before them, and none of them
was essentially different from any other. God might authorise
one to abrogate certain practices which had been commanded by a
predecessor, but in essential matters they were all engaged in
the same task, which was to proclaim the unity of God and summon
men to worship Him alone.
>
--- End Quote ---
HTML http://www.thenazareneway.com/christ_in_islam.htm
If the bolded text in the last quote is true then Mohammed was
himself a Gnostic.
#Post#: 1639--------------------------------------------------
Re: Help With Reconciling Islam and the Other Aryan Faiths
DIR By: SirGalahad
Date: October 20, 2020, 12:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This doesn't really address any of my concerns though. The first
portion only proves that Zoroastrianism shares more in common
with Gnostic Christianity and Buddhism than mainstream Islam
does, which I already felt to be the case. The same can be said
for the quote attributed to Monoismus. Because although he was
indeed an Arab, he predated Islam by a few hundred years. As for
the second portion, I'm in no way a newcomer. I've known about
this site for a few years now, and have read all the articles
several times. My main issue isn't the information (erroneous or
not) contained within the Quran, but the information that is
lacking. Most of the main tenets of Gnosticism aren't to be
found in the Islamic holy texts at all. This is a massive
problem, because Gnostic Christians already struggle enough with
convincing people that they're legitimate Christians rather than
plain old heretics. And they actually do have a corpus (the Nag
Hammadi library) to back them up. How is it gonna look when the
vast majority of Muslims see us throwing rebirth, veneration of
the sun, veneration of intermediary beings (the Aeons, Sophia,
etc), support of a pantheon of gods representing moral forces,
and all these other supplementary beliefs into Islam? They're
gonna think we've gone off the deep end and created a chimera
that isn't truly Islam at all
#Post#: 1640--------------------------------------------------
Re: Help With Reconciling Islam and the Other Aryan Faiths
DIR By: guest5
Date: October 20, 2020, 12:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Well I wasn't finished... lol! As you can see I added that last
part after you posted your reply....
I do not see the difference between most present day followers
of Islam and followers of Judeo-Christianity. I don't think that
helps our cause either. Perhaps when Retro90sFan comes back on
he can tell you more about the Jamia Blog that someone was
supposed to write but never did. R90F is much more knowledgeable
about this subject. I just know what works for me and my own
beliefs. I don't think that would help present day followers of
Islam see us in a better light than what you stated above....
--- Quote ---
> Ali kept a second, secret text (the Jamia) of Mohammed’s
teachings, which will reappear to the world during the end
times.)
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 1641--------------------------------------------------
Re: Help With Reconciling Islam and the Other Aryan Faiths
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: October 20, 2020, 12:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"Islam preaches total monotheism (Tawhid), whereas the Gnostics
venerate figures such as Sophia and the Aeons alongside the
Monad"
You seem to be talking about particular Gnostic schools. When we
use the term "Gnostic", we simply mean anyone who believes that
the material world is fundamentally evil.
"Muslims also do not believe in dualism, where a Demiurge stands
in direct opposition to God"
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil#In_Salafism
--- Quote ---
> Salafi strands of Islam commonly emphasize a dualistic
worldview between the believers and the unbelievers,[61] with
the devil as the enemy of God's path. Even though the devil will
be finally defeated by God, he is a serious and dangerous
opponent of humans.[62] While in classical hadiths, the demons
(Shayateen) and the jinn are responsible for impurity and
possibly endanger people, in Salafi thought, it is the devil
himself, who lurks on the believers,[63] always striving to lead
them astray from God. The devil is regarded as an omnipresent
entity, permanently inciting humans into sin, but can be pushed
away by remembering the name God.[64]
--- End Quote ---
For contrast:
--- Quote ---
> Yahweh, the god in pre-exilic Judaism, created both good and
evil, as stated in Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light, and create
darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these
things." The devil does not exist in Jewish scriptures.
--- End Quote ---
From this line alone we can deduce that Yahweh is in fact the
devil.
"nor does there seem to be any mention of reincarnation/rebirth
in the Quran."
Belief in reincarnation is not essential to Gnosticism. Even if
you believe you yourself will not be born again into the
material world, others will still be born for the first time
into the material world, which it is your duty to oppose as
someone here right now.
"In that sense, aren't Gnosticism and Islam incompatible?"
A Gnostic interpretation of Mohammed's teachings is certainly
possible, even if such an interpretation may contradict with
some of the content of other Gnostic schools. But such
contradiction should not matter and can even be helpful for
unifying on the grounds of shared anti-materialism people with
different metaphysical beliefs. I would much rather side with a
nonbeliever in reincarnation who wants to control reproduction
than with a believer in reincarnation who promotes uncontrolled
reproduction as a way for more people to reincarnate sooner!
"Another religion that I find hard to reconcile with Islam is
Atenism. Wouldn't Akhenaten have been considered a heretic as
well? The sun is an extremely important symbol and figure to the
movement, so it just wouldn't sit right with me that veneration
of the sun is considered a heresy."
But in the context of how Akhenaten reformed religion compared
to how he found it in Eighteenth Dynasty Egypt in his time, he
indisputably reformed it in the direction of monotheism and
moral universalism. If Mohammed were asked whether he would side
with Akhenaten or the Egyptian traditionalists in that conflict,
I do not doubt for an instant that Mohammed would answer the
former.
Conversely, if Akhenaten were asked whether he would side with
Mohammed or with the Jews, I would say the answer is equally
obvious.
"And what about the pantheon of gods that are sympathetic to our
cause that this site mentions, who oppose the nature gods? Are
they not worthy of consideration? They play a fairly big role in
Aryan myths."
To use the Mohammedan lexicon, they can be considered prophets.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophet#Islam
--- Quote ---
> a hadith (no. 21257 in Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal)[57] mentions
that there were (more or less) 124,000 prophets in total
throughout history. Other traditions place the number of
prophets at 224,000. Some scholars hold that there are an even
greater number in the history of mankind, and only God
knows.[citation needed] The Quran says that God has sent a
prophet to every group of people throughout time
--- End Quote ---
This is basically Aryan diffusion.
#Post#: 1642--------------------------------------------------
Re: Help With Reconciling Islam and the Other Aryan Faiths
DIR By: SirGalahad
Date: October 20, 2020, 1:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Belief in reincarnation is not essential to Gnosticism. Even
if you believe you yourself will not be born again into the
material world, others will still be born for the first time
into the material world, which it is your duty to oppose as
someone here right now.
--- End Quote ---
Aryan religion without rebirth just doesn't make sense to me.
What I find compelling about the concept of rebirth as it
relates to Gnosticism and Buddhism, is that everyone's ultimate
destiny is to achieve enlightenment and transcend the material
realm. If rebirth does not exist, then what happens when someone
doesn't attain enlightenment/gnosis within their lifetime? Are
they annihilated, or are they sent to hell? If so, then why does
someone deserve eternal punishment for being born under
unfortunate circumstances? Those who fail at this goal or simply
turn out to be bad people are victims of their biology. Do they
go the same place that enlightened beings go when they die,
regardless of their personal effort or behavior? If so, then why
waste the effort to become an ascetic or a monk in the first
place, when you can just sit back and do nothing?
#Post#: 1643--------------------------------------------------
Re: Help With Reconciling Islam and the Other Aryan Faiths
DIR By: guest5
Date: October 20, 2020, 1:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Do they go the same place that enlightened beings go when they
die, regardless of their personal effort or behavior?
--- End Quote ---
I suspect hell is being conscious for eternity in nothing but
darkness, alone, forever.
"The dead are not alive, and the living will not die." — Gospel
of Thomas
#Post#: 1644--------------------------------------------------
Re: Help With Reconciling Islam and the Other Aryan Faiths
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: October 20, 2020, 2:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"Aryan religion without rebirth just doesn't make sense to me."
No one is trying to persuade you to not believe in rebirth! But
we are also trying to rally those who do not.
"If rebirth does not exist, then what happens when someone
doesn't attain enlightenment/gnosis within their lifetime? Are
they annihilated, or are they sent to hell? If so, then why does
someone deserve eternal punishment for being born under
unfortunate circumstances?"
What makes you think the Demiurge cares about giving people what
they deserve?!
#Post#: 1645--------------------------------------------------
Re: Help With Reconciling Islam and the Other Aryan Faiths
DIR By: SirGalahad
Date: October 20, 2020, 3:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> What makes you think the Demiurge cares about giving people
what they deserve?!
>
--- End Quote ---
That's a fair point, but a religion of that form doesn't give me
hope or lead me to happiness. It just makes me sick to my
stomach. The idea that I only have one shot at attaining gnosis
or else I'll be doomed for eternity is probably the hugest
burden that could be thrusted upon me. At least in
Judeo-Christianity, you simply have to repent and have faith.
Gnostic monotheism without the rebirth is tantamount to
combining the worst of both worlds, since you'd be combining the
strict perfectionism of Buddhism with the threat of eternal doom
if you fail. I just don't understand what Mohammed would gain
from preaching something like that. 99.9% of his followers will
not "get it right" the first time anyways, and for those that
have a shot at attaining gnosis, they basically have to suffer
with a doctrine of mental torture **** for their entire life. It
gets even worse when you consider the entire animal kingdom that
is incapable of conceiving of these things in the first place,
and are thus incapable of receiving salvation. The trillions of
animals that we breed and kill for food included.
I was always under the impression that there was some underlying
doctrinal unity between all these religions that was destroyed
or had remained hidden from us, and that all (including the
contradictions) would be explained in due time. But finding out
that they're strung together in a messy patchwork is kind of a
blow for me.
#Post#: 1647--------------------------------------------------
Re: Help With Reconciling Islam and the Other Aryan Faiths
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: October 20, 2020, 4:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"Gnostic monotheism without the rebirth is tantamount to
combining the worst of both worlds, since you'd be combining the
strict perfectionism of Buddhism with the threat of eternal doom
if you fail. I just don't understand what Mohammed would gain
from preaching something like that."
Because he promised that the path of martyrdom guarantees
transcendence.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahid
--- Quote ---
> Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay,
they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their
Lord; They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah. And with
regard to those left behind, who have not yet joined them (in
their bliss), the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no
fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve.
--- End Quote ---
"99.9% of his followers will not "get it right" the first time
anyways"
See above. If they refuse to take the certain path to
transcendence though it is available to them, and instead take
an uncertain path and then fail, they can only blame themselves.
"It gets even worse when you consider the entire animal kingdom
that is incapable of conceiving of these things in the first
place, and are thus incapable of receiving salvation."
--- Quote ---
> “There is not an animal on the earth, nor a flying creature on
two wings, but they are people like unto you.”
>
> “A ridden animal might be better than its rider and might
remember and mention God more than its rider does.”
--- End Quote ---
HTML http://aryanism.net/religion/mohammedanism/words-of-mohammed
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