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#Post#: 16805--------------------------------------------------
Vegan Jews?
By: SirGalahad Date: December 2, 2022, 5:39 am
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HTML https://www.jewishveg.org/jewish-values-in-action
Interesting website that attempts to connect the Jewish system
of ethics to veganism by quoting the Tanakh. The thing that
confuses me the most isn’t even the claim itself that the Tanakh
could endorse veganism. What confuses me the most is that they
go so far as to adopt a universalistic philosophy like veganism
and yet somehow still feel the need to be tied down to and
salvage a religion that by nature is not universalistic, or even
humanistic (Jew vs non-Jew).
This whole topic is interesting to be honest, with Israel being
one of the countries with the highest proportion of
self-proclaimed vegans. Not sure why that is exactly, but I
predict that this will end up being a thorn in our side if
veganism were to get more popular in places like America and
Europe. Just as acceptance of homosexuality in western occupied
countries and Israel has led the Muslim world to respond with
reactionary homophobia out of a mistaken belief that such
acceptance is typically western, the Muslims who are currently
more intrigued by veganism than anything else, will end up
quickly changing their tone and probably end up vehemently
rejecting it out of that same principle
#Post#: 16808--------------------------------------------------
Re: Vegan Jews?
By: Soulbadger Date: December 2, 2022, 3:34 pm
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[quote]or even humanistic (Jew vs non-Jew).[/quote]
Jews are humanists, they just don't see non-Jews as human. In
the Jewish worldview, especially in the Rabbinical tradition,
Jews are the most human of all.
#Post#: 16809--------------------------------------------------
Re: Vegan Jews?
By: 90sRetroFan Date: December 2, 2022, 4:26 pm
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[quote]And God said: "Behold, I have given you every herb
yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every
tree that has seed-yielding fruit -- to you it shall be for
food." (Genesis 1:29)
There is no disputing that, according to the Torah, God asked
human beings to be vegans in his very first conversation with
Adam and Eve.
In fact, God issued those instructions right after he gave
humans “dominion” over the animals.
So it is clear that “dominion” does not include killing animals
for food.[/quote]
Then why accept Abel's sacrifice and not Cain's, given that Cain
was the one following the supposed instruction to be vegan and
Abel was the one who wasn't?
The simplest explanation is that Genesis 1:29 wasn't an
instruction to be vegan. Indeed, the statement is worded to be
about what can be eaten, not about what cannot be eaten.
[quote] The great 13th century Jewish philosopher Nachmanides
explained God’s reason for excluding meat from His dietary
ideal:
“Living creatures,” Nachmanides wrote, “possess a moving soul
and a certain spiritual superiority which in this respect make
them similar to those who possess intellect (human beings) and
they have the power of affecting their welfare and their food
and they flee from pain and death.”[/quote]
Let's not even get started about why, if Yahweh really did
dislike non-vegans, and can predict perfectly what would happen
in his creation (as Jews attribute omniscience to Yahweh), he
would still go ahead and create creatures who would become
non-vegans.....
"What confuses me the most is that they go so far as to adopt a
universalistic philosophy like veganism and yet somehow still
feel the need to be tied down to and salvage a religion that by
nature is not universalistic"
It is a ruse. You yourself detected its utility:
"this will end up being a thorn in our side if veganism were to
get more popular"
Jews like to keep all their bases covered in order to maximize
their own survivability under any circumstances. It is that
simple. Everything Jews do they do with the motive of furthering
Jewish survival. Vegan Jews are nothing more than prepper units
to ensure Jewish survival in a hypothetical vegan future. Stop
assuming they are sincere in anything they do!
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father
ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not
in the truth, because there is no truth in him." - Jesus
This is why no ideology that is not explicitly anti-Jewish will
ever succeed in eliminating Jews: because Jews will simply adopt
that ideology themselves and take it over from within! The only
ideology Jews cannot adopt without eliminating themselves is an
ideology that strictly requires all Jews to voluntarily stop
reproducing.
#Post#: 16814--------------------------------------------------
Re: Vegan Jews?
By: SirGalahad Date: December 2, 2022, 6:40 pm
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"Then why accept Abel's sacrifice and not Cain's, given that
Cain was the one following the supposed instruction to be vegan
and Abel was the one who wasn't?"
Yeah, this single passage alone utterly destroys the notion that
the Tanakh could endorse veganism. The fact that Cain was only
punished AFTER having killed Abel is proof enough that
"slaughter-based sacrifices are the most sufficient" was one of
the core messages of that section of the Tanakh. Cain was
already looked upon less favorably even before he had done
anything "wrong"
"Stop assuming they are sincere in anything they do!"
As a collective identity, I agree that they absolutely cannot be
trusted to be sincere. However, on a more individual level, I do
think that there are genuine false leftist Jews that adopt
veganism (or anti-racism, or anti-homophobia) for ethical
reasons and yet misguidedly cling onto Judaism and even support
Israel directly or indirectly. There's definitely some animosity
between Jews in different political camps, and I think that's
natural since no group is immune from fragmentation or
dissention. Not even Yahweh's favorite tribe can be entirely
cohesive at all times. I'm not saying that there aren't Jews who
co-opt beliefs and identities (including veganism) so that they
can control both sides, but I think it's more helpful to
distinguish between false left Jews, and the orthodox Jews (who
may or may not hide their orthodoxness, depending on the tactics
they choose). My issue with the Orthodox Jews is that they're
following true-to-form Judaism, and my issue with the false left
Jews is that they fall into all the trappings of the false left
while also ultimately benefiting the orthodox side, whether they
know it or not, and whether they actually want to or not
"'Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father
ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not
in the truth, because there is no truth in him.' - Jesus"
This quote describes the Devil, and I agree that our view of the
Devil's nature should be uncompromising since I'm an absolute
dualist, but for those within the material world and subject to
the Devil's whims, I think that it's possible to have God
speaking in one ear and the Devil speaking in the other. False
left Jews suffer largely from the same problem that non-Jewish
false leftists do: something within them is telling them to do
the right thing, but the Devil is ultimately speaking louder,
and some of his temptations are too enticing. Hence why they
possess enough good sense to question the dynamics between
humans and non-humans, and even ethnic discrimination, but not
enough of it to do away with creator worship and adopt
Gnosticism
Thanks for your input on the topic, by the way
#Post#: 28278--------------------------------------------------
Re: Vegan Jews?
By: SirGalahad Date: October 14, 2024, 3:06 pm
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@90sRetroFan What do you think of the prophesy of a future
kingdom in Isaiah?
“The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down
with the kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling together,
and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall
graze, their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall
eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the
hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put its hand on
the adder's den. They will not hurt or destroy on all my holy
mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the
Lord as the waters cover the sea.”
Isaiah‬ 11‬:6‬-9‬
Honestly, I can see why some people try to make a case for
veganism in the Old Testament, because as we mentioned before,
the beginning of Genesis technically only lists plants as food
for Adam and Eve, and seemingly doesn’t mention meat consumption
until at least after Adam and Eve had eaten from the forbidden
tree. And now we have this prophesy later on in Isaiah,
seemingly describing some sort of vegan utopia.
What do you think is the reason for including such a prophesy?
If the Old Testament strictly adhered to human supremacy, why
include such a verse? We already know from personal experience,
that when most non-vegans imagine their ideal utopia, non-humans
aren’t even considered. But this portion of the Old Testament at
least tries to.
I don’t think this can be chalked up to “they’re preparing for a
potential future vegan world” like you said before, because I
doubt that the ancient Jews would have that foresight, and even
if they did, why would they explicitly describe their own utopia
as essentially vegan? Then they’ll be forced to model their
ideal society along vegan values, or else people will think that
they don’t follow their own religious text. At the very least,
it would’ve made more sense for them to be silent on diet when
that future kingdom comes, so that in either scenario (a carnist
or vegan future), they’ll have their bases covered
#Post#: 28286--------------------------------------------------
Re: Vegan Jews?
By: 90sRetroFan Date: October 14, 2024, 7:05 pm
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[quote]“The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie
down with the kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling
together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the
bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together; and the
lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play
over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put its
hand on the adder's den. They will not hurt or destroy on all my
holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of
the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”[/quote]
In short, non-human predators will cease to be predators, and
cease to be dangerous in any way. Also, non-humans in general
will become easy enough to herd that even a human child can do
it. (This could all be achieved with gene editing, which could
be what "full knowledge of the Lord" means.)
Nowhere does it say that human adults will not continue to
initiate violence against these non-humans. How human adults are
to behave is not mentioned at all, therefore a fair reading can
only assume they are expected to behave as they previously
behaved, which in the case of Jews means according to Mosaic
Law.
My assumption is in fact explicitly confirmed here:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korban
[quote]When sacrifices were offered in ancient times, they were
offered as a fulfillment of Biblical commandments. According to
Orthodox Judaism, the coming of the messiah will not remove the
requirement to keep the 613 commandments, and when the Temple is
rebuilt, sacrifices will be offered again.[8][/quote]
[quote]prophets promised an eventual reconciliation between God
and a more moral people of Israel, and proclaimed that the
reestablishment of sacrifices would be a sign of this
reconciliation.[53] Thus sacrifices have a place in their
visions of eventual redemption:
I will bring them to My holy mountain; I will gladden them in My
house of prayer. Their burnt-offerings and sacrifices will find
favor on My altar, for My house will be a house of prayer for
all the nations.[54][/quote]
Note in particular the term "my holy mountain" is used both in
the last paragraph and in your quote. If we assume the term
refers to the same place in both quotes, then we now have a more
complete picture of what goes on there.
"I can see why some people try to make a case for veganism in
the Old Testament"
I can't.
"Isaiah, seemingly describing some sort of vegan utopia."
Not even close. He was merely describing a herding utopia.
"What do you think is the reason for including such a prophesy?
If the Old Testament strictly adhered to human supremacy, why
include such a verse?"
The human supremacy is literally still present in that verse
FFS:
[quote]and a little child shall lead them[/quote]
"why would they explicitly describe their own utopia as
essentially vegan?"
Point out precisely where they explicitly describe this. I
cannot see it.
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