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#Post#: 14176--------------------------------------------------
Debate with the Progressives
By: guest30 Date: June 18, 2022, 11:52 pm
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@90sRetroFan
They say that what we enjoy today, like national economic
growth, easy life with technological tools, and many comfortable
conditions are result from progressivism. Backward nation
resulting rebellions from their people, because they not
enjoying the easy technological living which the developed
Western nations got. And many of them will leave the nation and
seek refuge to the West. Or, try to make a coup to forcibly
change it's leader.
And, the undeveloped nations will make their people's starving
because their backwardness. Or their people will have consuming
goods which it's quality is less good than the goods which
produced by progressive nations.
My answer is. We only need socialism and social fairness. Not
competition for the sake making good products and technologies
which usually forget to distribute the nation's revenue to the
society. What is the another good answer for that problem?
#Post#: 14179--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate with the Progressives
By: 90sRetroFan Date: June 19, 2022, 2:32 am
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"comfortable conditions are result from progressivism"
Where - a modern country or an ancient country - would you
choose to be born if you cannot control which individual you
will be born as? Because if you choose to be born in a modern
country, the probability is >99.9999999999% that you would be
born as one of the victims here:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-sustainable-evil/
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-is-a-health-hazard/
and <0.00000000001% that you would be born as someone living
comfortably. This is the full picture of what results from
progress.
As Zea_mays expressed eloquently:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/if-western-civilization-does-not-die-soon/msg6698/#msg6698
[quote]More humans are enslaved today than at any point in
history, and more animals are enslaved today than at any point
in history.[/quote]
"And many of them will leave the nation and seek refuge to the
West."
That is what we want to happen.
"Or, try to make a coup to forcibly change it's leader."
This is what we are trying to prevent, in order to maintain the
emigration incentive.
"the undeveloped nations will make their people's starving
because their backwardness."
Starvation is much less likely when all food is grown locally,
which is how it was done for most of history. Relying on imports
is what leads to starvation when deliveries stop. This is almost
entirely a modern phenomenon, set up by Western civilization
during the colonial era.
"What is the another good answer for that problem?"
You should collect movies and TV shows set in pre-modern times
and which portray pre-modern life in a positive light, and then
encourage people to watch these.
#Post#: 14386--------------------------------------------------
Debate with Rightist
By: guest30 Date: June 29, 2022, 4:51 am
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They always say that without technological advancements from the
work of people from Western Civilization. The world will be
boring, full of disease. And people will sad and not want to
live longer on this world anymore. They will see the world is
the most harsh and evil thing they ever experience. What about
that?
#Post#: 14387--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate with Rightist
By: 90sRetroFan Date: June 29, 2022, 12:41 pm
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"The world will be boring"
Why are so many people drawn to fiction set in ancient times
despite living in modernity unless they feel that it is the
latter which is actually boring?
"full of disease"
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-is-a-health-hazard/
Just think about:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/news/coronavirus/
If travelling long distances was as slow and as rare as it was
in ancient times, there would have been no global pandemic.
"And people will sad and not want to live longer on this world
anymore. They will see the world is the most harsh and evil
thing they ever experience."
So do the victims here:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-sustainable-evil/
except they cannot end it even if they want to.
As I already covered here:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/debate-with-the-progressives/msg14179/#msg14179
[quote]Where - a modern country or an ancient country - would
you choose to be born if you cannot control which individual you
will be born as? Because if you choose to be born in a modern
country, the probability is >99.9999999999% that you would be
born as one of the victims here:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-sustainable-evil/
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-is-a-health-hazard/
and <0.00000000001% that you would be born as someone living
comfortably. This is the full picture of what results from
progress.[/quote]
Which is worse: a world where the people who feel sad can choose
to leave, or a world where the people who feel sad cannot choose
to leave?
(But which world would Yahweh prefer?)
#Post#: 14388--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate with the Progressives
By: guest30 Date: June 29, 2022, 6:43 pm
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@90sRetroFan
[quote]Why are so many people drawn to fiction set in ancient
times despite living in modernity unless they feel that it is
the latter which is actually boring?[/quote]
The progressives have a strong reason why technological
advancement is not a big problem. Because it bring more
happiness and comfort of living for them. See this screenshot of
statistic data :
[img width=1280
height=720]
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/5a9d1f2390c4fac3e8378a0b5628ca58/dcd0aa3bc873e60a-71/s2048x3072/84462eed85032cca3589935c25af0d69ce19f65d.pnj[/img]
They strongly like it and they not want to abandon it. My only
answer to them now is, the more complex the technological tools
are. The more people learn and live in this world with more
difficulties because their need to understand to manage that
technological tools. And it will resulting the same condition
like when they live without more technological tools. I can make
conclusion that we will feel boring, but with less stress if we
live in society where technological tools are few. But feel
capitalistic monopoly condition and stress, and also boring if
we live on "advanced technological" condition, or Western
Civilization. Have you found another answer?
#Post#: 14389--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate with the Progressives
By: 90sRetroFan Date: June 29, 2022, 8:00 pm
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I always go back to the air conditioner analogy. If a Western
air conditioner cools Room A by blowing the hot air into Room B,
of course A is a more comfortable room to be in. If you do your
Happiness Score survey in these two rooms, of course A will
score higher than B. But the people in A who invented the
Western air conditioner should be not admired but hated by the
people in B. And an outsider should trivially conclude that the
people in A are inferior to the people in B.
Western civilization as a whole works like its air conditioner.
Everyone able to perceive this understands that Western
civilization is inferior.
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/decolonized-housing-(america-edition)/msg14085/#msg14085
"the more complex the technological tools are. The more people
learn and live in this world with more difficulties because
their need to understand to manage that technological tools."
This is true too. In ancient times, you learn a few skills which
would be all you needed for your entire life. Now, we have learn
new skills every year just because some annoying Western
machinist has added yet another new machine to civic
infrastructure which the rest of us are then forced to get used
to, while old skills that we put effort into learning in the
past become outdated. Worst of all, the Western machinist is
given prizes, awards, etc. by other Westerners for doing this to
us without our consent! Every machine added to civic
infrastructure without unanimous consent is violence initiated
on all who did not consent (but whose lives are still altered by
it thereafter). Western civilization literally rewards
machinists for initiating AoE violence!
#Post#: 15122--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate with the Progressives
By: guest30 Date: August 13, 2022, 9:05 am
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@90sRetroFan
The progressives say that there's nothing wrong with being
creatives. Yet this forum's knowledge is against creativity.
What is the best answer for it?
My current answer is, the creativity make the people tend to
doing something complex and make them feel superior at solving
material problem. So they potentially discriminating the
less-competent ones, even though they are still good at
morality. Because the human are naturally tend to oppress the
less-strong ones without seeing whether they are innocent or not
on moral basis.
#Post#: 15129--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate with the Progressives
By: 90sRetroFan Date: August 13, 2022, 5:43 pm
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We have a whole topic about this:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-false-left/progressive-yahwism/
How much creation is enough? No progressive has ever been able
to answer this. There is never an enough for them. They will
always want more. No quantity of creation removes the desire to
create further. Creativity is the worst form of greed. Greed for
what already exists (covetousness) at least can theoretically be
satisfied if one is allowed to own everything that currently
exists. But creativity is greed for what does not yet exist,
therefore it can never be satisfied. Moreover, by constantly
increasing what exists, a side-effect of creativity is to ensure
covetousness cannot be satisfied either.
#Post#: 15324--------------------------------------------------
Re: Western Democracy
By: guest30 Date: August 25, 2022, 11:14 pm
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Exposing the Democratic Liberal Mentality
Debate on Discord group named "Political Zone"
Date : Friday, 26th August 2022, 07 : 06 Jakarta Time until 07 :
22 Jakarta Time
[img width=960
height=1280]
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/6b5982155d8f7a25f5acb69a687402bf/38f600ddbcd79516-1b/s2048x3072/79de68b58947c1d287607202bc598e9aea87bbd9.jpg[/img]
Explanation 1 :
He said that Mohammad's marriage with a 7th old child was the
flaw of Islamic teachings. I told him back that Islamic
teachings can be enhanced to adapt to the today's complex living
with forbid the child marriage. And I told to him whether the
majority of Western democratic people who supported AUKUS
(Australia, United States, and United Kingdom) military alliance
can be arrested or prohibited to participate on politics.
Because they are threatening our freedom from Western
Aristotelian oppression. He said that he can't did that.
[img width=960
height=1280]
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/51e58272d43cbea1d6596a64e98a1762/38f600ddbcd79516-94/s2048x3072/2ef5930dedd2dcdc4d56d0150a29d15df566bd69.jpg[/img]
Explanation 2 :
I remember him that he always talked to change the topic.
Actually we talked about the problem of "White" Supremacy and
Western Aristotelian ideology which he cannot answered my
arguments with knowledge. And suddenly he talked about Islam and
consider my written answer about Western problem were "out of
context".
And when he talked about the solution to remove the Western's
Aristotelian World Oppression. I answered him with my solution.
That was installing autocratic anti-democratic government. So
the rightist who support the Western's Aristotelian Military
Domination can be easily removed from society.
And the other Discord user named "Inscrutable Hedgehog" said
that she/he like "free choice". Which means people can free to
promote rightist Aristotelian mindset which tend to result
Western's oppressive liberal terror like AUKUS and
"Frenchafrique" (French's today political agenda to make people
of "Africa" destabilized for the sake to make benefit for
France.
[img width=960
height=1280]
HTML https://64.media.tumblr.com/fb41aaa9b4a681dea235a25ec0677267/38f600ddbcd79516-80/s2048x3072/58a51ae6760f25879cc754ce02d8cab2d32c661d.jpg[/img]
Explanation 3 :
He keep saying that the liberalism are not the problem. But the
another form of liberalism which according to him, a problem.
And I said to him that whatever the form of liberalism did not
stopping AUKUS and "Frenchafrique" from keep ongoing today. And
he begin to judge me that I'm only "rambling" and he "got tired"
And, the conversation end with he keep not answer and ignoring
my written arguments on the "Political Zone" Discord server
#Post#: 15325--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Western Democracy
By: 90sRetroFan Date: August 25, 2022, 11:37 pm
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"He said that Mohammad's marriage with a 7th old child was the
flaw of Islamic teachings. I told him back that Islamic
teachings can be enhanced to adapt to the today's complex living
with forbid the child marriage."
What?! You are talking like a progressive. I explicitly warned
against this approach:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/ancient-world/inspired-by-muhammad/msg13559/#msg13559
[quote]The most common False Left approach I have seen to defend
Mohammed is to patronizingly say that he was a person of his
time and therefore cannot be faulted for behaviour that modern
people behaving the same way can be faulted for. This is a
progressive attitude, implying that ancient people in general
were morally inferior to modern people in general, and that it
is not their fault for being born in that earlier and hence less
developed era. In short, False Leftists consider Mohammed as an
individual to be superior to most ancient people, but inferior
to even the average modern person. This is how strongly they
believe in progressivism.[/quote]
Children should be allowed to marry whenever they want! To not
let them decide for themselves is to oppress them! (Note that
under democracy, children cannot vote either. Not letting
children vote and not letting children marry are two
manifestations of the same adult attitude.)
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