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       #Post#: 18318--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Counterculture and Western Civilisation
       By: rp Date: March 8, 2023, 9:15 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       "I agree that the pictured church is American. This is why I
       place hope in America."
       IMO the church in the picture is just comically unserious, not
       comparable to the Gnostic ruins. Most "American" (Western)
       churches are just there to cater to the consumeristic,
       hedonistic lifestyle of Westerners.
       #Post#: 18322--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Counterculture and Western Civilisation
       By: 90sRetroFan Date: March 8, 2023, 9:38 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       "IMO the church in the picture is just comically unserious, not
       comparable to the Gnostic ruins."
       The Cathar castle ruins look mysterious to us now because they
       have been ruins for centuries. Hypothetical True Leftists
       centuries from now looking at the future ruins of the pictured
       church above should find them just as mysterious.
       Do you at least agree that if our only choices are either the
       pictured American church above or a Western church such as (from
       one of the replies in the Culture Critic thread):
       [img]
  HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FpLlreJagAAQP_S?format=png&name=small[/img]
       Jesus would choose the former to preach in?
       #Post#: 18323--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Counterculture and Western Civilisation
       By: rp Date: March 8, 2023, 9:44 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Hmm.. You definitely have a point. The "pizza hut" just looks
       like one of the buildings in my neighborhood, and I myself don't
       have any problems seeing them in my day-to-day life. The Western
       church on the other hand is so jarring that it would completely
       alter the spiritual ambiance of my neighborhood. So in that
       regard, yes, the former church is superior.
       #Post#: 18324--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Counterculture and Western Civilisation
       By: rp Date: March 8, 2023, 10:06 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       On that note, I should say I find pre-Renaissaince Western
       architecture a little more bearable than Renaissance
       architecture, though not by a lot.
       #Post#: 18363--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Counterculture and Western Civilisation
       By: 90sRetroFan Date: March 10, 2023, 8:48 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Our enemies attack American aesthetics again, proving (again)
       that they themselves are not Americans but Western occupiers:
  HTML https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2023/03/10/pajama-nation-americans-have-morphed-into-the-people-of-walmart/
       [quote]It has become common in America to see someone wearing a
       hoodie, backward baseball cap, torn jeans, a ‘wife-beater,’ or
       their baggy pajamas to the grocery store, the DMV, or to the
       movies. Most people probably don’t even notice it anymore
       because it has become a regular feature of what Americans
       wear.[/quote]
       Our enemies cite their authority on the subject:
       [quote]Americans, it seems, are quite content in attiring
       themselves like complete slobs. They can’t be bothered to wear
       appropriate and form-fitting clothes. Comedian Bill Mahr was
       right when he said on his Real Time show in 2013 that Americans
       won’t be happy until they can go shopping in a diaper![/quote]
       (I think they mean Maher.)
       [quote]Just as so many American fathers have abdicated their
       role as leaders in the family, so also mothers have failed to
       instruct and guide their daughters on what it means to be a
       woman. The days when our women were known for being feminine,
       soft-spoken, and polite are over. The entire notion of behaving
       “classy” and “dignified” seems to have been kicked to the curb.
       Whites Have Succumbed to the Degrading Fashion Trends of Blacks
       What I find to be especially disturbing is how many of our young
       White men and women follow the fashion trends of Blacks. White
       males wearing their hat backwards might seem like a petty thing
       to complain about. Perhaps, but even in something as seemingly
       insignificant as this, it shows the degree of influence that
       Black ‘culture’ has had on our way of life.
       White males didn’t do this sort of thing until around the late
       80s or early 90s when Black ‘rap’ music took hold of the nation.
       It’s been downhill ever since. The backwards baseball cap thing
       popular among Black males is, in my view, indicative of them as
       a people. Everything they do is backwards. They are largely
       unwilling to assimilate to the norms of White civilization, and
       it shows in their attitudes, including at times in the smallest
       of ways. These are subtle acts of defiance by Blacks, a sort of
       “**** you!” to the White man and a declaration that “we’re
       different than you!”[/quote]
       Yes (note Skate's backwards baseball cap):
  HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoahUBEMzwQ
       [quote]What a stark contrast all of this is to prior generations
       of White [s]Americans[/s]. Consider the 1950s when
       [s]America[/s], according to some observers, was at its pinnacle
       in terms of national unity, civility, and morality. People used
       to dress up when they went shopping or even to the grocery store
       as strange as that may sound to our ears. It wasn’t rare to see
       men in the stands at a professional baseball game wearing suits
       and women wearing dresses.[/quote]
       ::)
       [quote]Part of understanding all of this is recognizing that no
       one puts on their daily clothes without thinking about it. None
       of it is accidental. Yes, there are persons who give little
       thought as to what they wear, but that doesn’t mean they
       wouldn’t care if they dressed up like a clown or a disheveled
       hobo. Most of us attire ourselves a certain way because this is
       how we want to portray ourselves to others. Our clothes, then,
       serve as a reflection of ourselves and what we want others to
       think of us. Thus, when a gang member attires himself in a
       thuggish way or anyone else for that matter, they are sending a
       message. They are signaling to others. They are portraying
       themselves, as well as messaging their values and worldview
       (however slight it may be).
       Most people don’t think about it much, but this is what is
       occurring. A corporate professional for a large city bank, for
       example, would not think of wearing cowboy boots and a cowboy
       hat to work. He wouldn’t wear pajamas to the office either. He
       knows he has an image he wants to project, one that comports
       with his vocation and the policies of his company.
       Thus, when Americans dress like slobs it’s a peek inside their
       little world.[/quote]
       Our enemies want bankers to be our rolemodels. Got it.
       (Go back up to the video and note Mr X wearing a Western suit
       (1:15:00). And having his building guarded by robots (1:06:00).
       Additionally, note the names of the robots.)
       [quote]What young White woman in the 1950s would want to dress
       the way our women do today? What young White man in the 1950s
       would want to emulate the lowest fashions and degrading
       practices of Blacks? I suspect there would have been very few,
       if any.
       Times have changed, and that not for the better. We have been
       feeling for decades the effects of the disastrous social and
       political changes that occurred beginning in the 1960s.[/quote]
       Thank you Counterculture!
       [quote]One can see the downward progression by simply observing
       the clothing standards of each new decade. Current trends,
       sadly, indicate that it will only get worse.[/quote]
  HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXbIy0qWhnc
       #Post#: 18391--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Counterculture and Western Civilisation
       By: 90sRetroFan Date: March 12, 2023, 6:05 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Our enemies want the US to look as un-American as possible:
  HTML https://twitter.com/Culture_Crit/status/1634336550564646913
       [quote]America could have looked like this. We were so close...
       [img]
  HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fq5UWd0X0AAQzq2?format=jpg&name=900x900[/img]
       [img]
  HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fq5UedCXoAAk_sh?format=jpg&name=900x900[/img]
       [img]
  HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fq5UkUBXwAExeq-?format=jpg&name=small[/img]
       [img]
  HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fq5UurqWwAEpuhK?format=jpg&name=small[/img]
       [img]
  HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fq5VtLPXwAE7XzA?format=jpg&name=small[/img][/quote]
       Would you even know the above photos are of the US just by
       looking at them? They could be of any Western country.
       In contrast, in the below you instantly know which country you
       are looking at:
       [img]
  HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/NormsRestaurant_LaCienega.JPG/800px-NormsRestaurant_LaCienega.JPG[/img]
  HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Burbank_bob%27s_big_boy_patio_1.jpg/800px-Burbank_bob%27s_big_boy_patio_1.jpg
  HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Johnnie%27s_Coffee_Shop_for_Wiki_1.jpg/800px-Johnnie%27s_Coffee_Shop_for_Wiki_1.jpg
       [img]
  HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Caribbean_Motel_NJ.JPG/800px-Caribbean_Motel_NJ.JPG[/img]
  HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/McDonald%27s_%28520_Oxford_St_W%29_-_London%2C_ON.jpg/800px-McDonald%27s_%28520_Oxford_St_W%29_-_London%2C_ON.jpg
  HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Silk_City_Diner_4655_in_Sabina.jpg/800px-Silk_City_Diner_4655_in_Sabina.jpg
  HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Bendix_Diner.jpg/800px-Bendix_Diner.jpg
  HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Salemdiner.jpg/800px-Salemdiner.jpg
  HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Angel%27s_-_Florida%27s_oldest_diner_-_July_2008_02.jpg/800px-Angel%27s_-_Florida%27s_oldest_diner_-_July_2008_02.jpg
  HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNpuIHbK3-I
       #Post#: 18428--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Counterculture and Western Civilisation
       By: 90sRetroFan Date: March 14, 2023, 11:12 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Counterculture according to Duchesne:
  HTML https://twitter.com/dr_duchesne/status/1635742793136996354
       [quote]White women have been manipulated into wearing
       pants[/quote]
       while he was praising video of woman (note face shape)
       deliberately wearing Western clothes on the street amidst mostly
       Counterculture clothes:
  HTML https://twitter.com/ElijahSchaffer/status/1635645979750981632
       Recall:
  HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/human-evolution/re-sexual-dimorphism-preferences/msg1258/#msg1258
       [quote]it wasn't that long ago when even women wearing trousers
       was considered unacceptable in Western civilization (whereas
       women in other civilizations have worn trousers alongside men
       uncontroversially):
  HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trousers#Society
       [quote]    Based on Deuteronomy 22:5 in the Bible ("The woman
       shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man"), some groups,
       including the Amish, Hutterites, some Mennonites, some Baptists,
       a few Church of Christ groups, and most Orthodox Jews, believe
       that women should not wear trousers. These groups permit women
       to wear underpants as long as they are hidden. By contrast, many
       Muslim sects approve of pants as they are considered more modest
       than any skirt that is shorter than ankle
       length.[/quote][/quote]
  HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/colonial-era/re-genghis-khan/msg4142/#msg4142
       [quote]   Interactions between Ottomans and Britons occurred
       throughout history, but in the 18th century, European visitors
       and residents in the Ottoman Empire markedly increased, and
       exploded in the 19th century.[1] As such, fashion is one method
       to gauge the increased interactions. Historically, Europeans
       clothing was more delineated between male and female dress. Hose
       and trousers were reserved for men, and skirts were for
       women.[2] Conversely, in the Ottoman Empire, the male and female
       dress was more similar. A common item worn by both was the
       şalvar, a voluminous undergarment in white fabric shaped
       like what is today called "harem pants".[3] To British women
       traveling in the Ottoman Empire, the şalvar quickly became
       a symbol of freedom because they observed that Ottoman women had
       more rights than British women did. Lady Mary Wortley Montague
       (1689–1762), whose husband was the British Ambassador to
       Constantinople, noted in her travels in her "Embassy Letters"
       that Ottoman women "possessed legal property rights and
       protections that far surpassed the rights of Western women".[4]
       These female travelers often gained an intimate view of Ottoman
       culture, since as women, they had easier access to the Muslim
       Elite harems than did men.[5] Şalvar successfully spread
       into Europe at the end of the 19th century as various female
       suffragists and feminists used şalvar as a symbol of
       emancipation. Other British women of distinction, such as Lady
       (Janey) Archibald Campbell (1845–1923), and Lady Ottoline
       (Violet Anne) Morrell (1873–1938) wore şalvar "in an
       attempt to symbolize their refusal of traditional British
       standards and sexual differences".[6] Şalvar also spread
       beyond Europe when Amelia Jenks Bloomer modified these "Turkish
       trousers" to create American "bloomers".[7][/quote]
       #Post#: 18535--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Counterculture and Western Civilisation
       By: 90sRetroFan Date: March 21, 2023, 6:00 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Our enemies complain about Counterculture-inspired decrease in
       the sexual dimorphism of clothes:
  HTML https://vdare.com/posts/the-forgotten-1960s-unisex-craze
       [quote]“Unisex” had a lot to do with Late Sixties wars over
       hair. In the 1960s, males got their hair cut only by male
       barbers.
       ...
       But in the 1970s it became cool for guys to get their hair cut
       by women. Hair salons put out signs declaring themselves
       “unisex” to advertise that the opposite sex was okay to come in.
       ...
       Nobody today remembers how hard Society pushed “unisex”
       androgyny in the 1970s. For example, from the Sears catalog:
  HTML https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Screen-Shot-2023-03-21-at-6.20.45-AM.png
  HTML https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Screen-Shot-2023-03-21-at-6.21.40-AM.png
       [/quote]
       I made a similar point (but in a positive tone) back here:
  HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/questions-debates/re-dress-decolonization/msg5864/#msg5864
       Contrast with the high sexual dimorphism of Western clothes:
       [img width=853
       height=1280]
  HTML https://www.brides.com/thmb/WTQiJ4pOLBIX6A_ZnBtTk9aIboU=/1500x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/wedding-dress-code-explained-v2-d929658adb614430be36ee20caaea7fe.png[/img]
       This is how superior the Counterculture was.
       With that said, one possible criticism is that, despite the
       Counterculture designers' good intentions, they had forgotten to
       remove Western button placement:
  HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/dress-decolonization/msg5632/?topicseen#msg5632
       thus even the clothes pictured in the enemy post are inferior to
       non-Western clothes, none of which use sexually dimorphic button
       placement. This problem was solved only with the tracksuits I
       mentioned in the second link which used zips instead of buttons:
       [quote]
  HTML https://vintagedancer.com/wp-content/uploads/80s-shell-tracksuits-windbreakers-jackets-mens-women.jpg[/quote]
       #Post#: 18904--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Counterculture and Western Civilisation
       By: 90sRetroFan Date: April 16, 2023, 4:46 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Our enemies academically agree with us regarding Western vs
       American architecture:
  HTML https://twitter.com/Culture_Crit/status/1646631882937729027
       [img]
  HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtoCFw1WAAIjfXi?format=jpg&name=medium[/img]
       vs
       [img]
  HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtoDXQ-WYAAjlC2?format=jpg&name=900x900[/img]
       The only difference is that their opinion of the former is:
       [quote]Will mankind ever construct a building as perfect as this
       again?[/quote]
       whereas ours is:
  HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-is-ugly-48/msg6679/?topicseen#msg6679
       Bonus commercial:
  HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN61cFkwMyc
       Can you imagine Fry Kids inside the Western building? Neither
       can I.
       #Post#: 20601--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Counterculture and Western Civilisation
       By: 90sRetroFan Date: June 23, 2023, 4:11 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Culture Critic's anti-Americanism on display again:
  HTML https://twitter.com/Culture_Crit/status/1672293334780395521
       [quote]New York City's Woolworth Building is just that -
       nicknamed the "Cathedral of Commerce", it is one of the finest
       early skyscrapers in the world, and a monument to the economic
       dominance of the city in the early 20th Century.[/quote]
       [img width=853
       height=1280]
  HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzUdGX5X0AAUTbx?format=jpg&name=large[/img]
       [quote]He believed civic buildings deserved the necessary
       expenditure to make them beautiful. Fortunately, he worked
       during a time of vast appetite for elaborate ornamentation and
       high-budget historicism, before the Great Depression killed many
       such ambitions.[/quote]
       [img]
  HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzUeW8PWYAUG_DH?format=jpg&name=900x900[/img]
       [quote]For the Woolworth Building, Gilbert drew inspiration from
       his prior trips across Europe, incorporating intricate carvings,
       gargoyles and grotesques into the 15th and 16th Century-inspired
       neo-Gothic facade.[/quote]
       [img]
  HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzUejdAXsAg1LDc?format=jpg&name=900x900[/img]
       [quote]The main entrance is a marvel of Gothic design,
       consisting of a three-story Tudor arch surrounded in elaborate
       stone details.[/quote]
       [img]
  HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzUephmWAAAgpmX?format=png&name=900x900[/img]
       [quote]Stepping inside, the lobby is an eclectic mix of styles,
       and rich with detailed bronze fittings. Its Byzantine-style
       mosaics, vaulted ceiling and stained glass skylight make an
       extravagant welcome.[/quote]
       [img]
  HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzUesgGX0AIkq-n?format=jpg&name=900x900[/img]
       Again, can you imagine Fry Kids (see previous post) inside the
       Woolworth Building? Neither can I.
       Or, for that matter, Grimace? But here is some pro-American
       news:
  HTML https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mcdonalds-exec-grimaces-return-fuels-the-awakening-of-the-brand-143232859.html
       [quote]Grimace's return fuels the 'awakening of the brand'
       ...
       According to McDonald’s chief marketing and customer experience
       officer Tariq Hassan, it's all part of the fast food company's
       plan to become a "cultural icon" and use that status to drive
       the business.
       [img]
  HTML https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/tCROtcCUj3J3x0DaWw2SRA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTc4NjtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2023-06/5305a0e0-102b-11ee-bb5e-6dcd25726809[/img]
       Grimace, a fast-food marketing icon in the 1980s, has taken over
       McDonald's social media as part of an omnichannel marketing
       initiative promoting a special meal for the character's
       birthday.[/quote]
       This is what American aesthetics are supposed to be like!
  HTML https://relevantmagazine.com/current/buzzworthy/mcdonalds-celebrates-grimaces-birthday-with-retro-video-game/
  HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk61dHLut7A
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