DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
True Left
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: True Left vs Right
*****************************************************
#Post#: 12486--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rightists getting leftism wrong
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: April 4, 2022, 8:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
"The relevant question when deciding whether a particular policy
is racist is whether it benefits the in-group, in this case
"whites". Therefore, the policies in question must have been
aimed at scoring a demographic advantage for "whites" in one way
or another.
You could argue that the underlying intention was to get the
"white" refugees to safety as regards the dangers posed by the
Russian invasion at the expense of the non-"white" refugees,
however, being safe from the dangers posed by the Russian
invasion specifically is in the long run not actually decisive
in and of itself when it comes to demographics."
A policy does not have to benefit the in-group "in the long run"
in order to be racist, or else it would be impossible for
incompetent strategists to be racists, which is obviously not
the case. For a policy to be racist, it suffices that the policy
is intended to benefit members of the in-group in the immediacy
at the expense of members of the out-group in the same
immediacy, irrespective of what happens later. In the case of
refugee evacuations from Ukraine, refugees were sorted into
"white" and "non-white" categories and treated differently based
on such categories, with those in the "white" category receiving
consistently better treatment. In the immediacy, the interests
of "white" refugees to reach safety ASAP were considered more
important than those of "non-white" refugees to do the same.
"not evacuating immediately, taking up weapons, getting training
and combat experience and storming the border by force of arms
in the aftermath (ideally killing more "whites" in the process)
is still a more promising path towards that end than evacuating
immediately."
Refugees are individuals. Some of them may think like you just
described; others may not. Those who do not still do not deserve
to be treated worse on account of being "non-white". You make it
sound like we are only against injustice when its victims are
those who are strategic assets to us. No, we are against
injustice even when its victims are strategically useless. Why
do we care about factory chickens/fish/etc.?
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-sustainable-evil/msg72/#msg72
Because we expect them to join the war on our side if we free
them? No! We care because they do not deserve to be treated
worse on account of being "non-human"! That is all there is to
it.
You are not really arguing that Ukrainian prioritization of
"white" refugees is not racist; you are arguing that Ukrainian
racism should be excused because it might help us strategically.
It should not. Otherwise, next you will be arguing that the
chicken /fish/etc. factory owners should be excused because
their meat/eggs after being eaten might increase the chances of
our non-vegan enemies getting cancer sooner and thus dying
sooner.
#Post#: 12501--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rightists getting leftism wrong
DIR By: Dazhbog
Date: April 5, 2022, 6:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Original reply deleted. I have to overthink my stance once more.
#Post#: 12577--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rightists getting leftism wrong
DIR By: Dazhbog
Date: April 7, 2022, 4:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
(I have decided to write a new post instead of simply modifying
my previous one, so that the thread will show up as 'unread' in
your feed and you will notice my reply.)
--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
> You are not really arguing that Ukrainian prioritization of
"white" refugees is not racist; you are arguing that Ukrainian
racism should be excused because it might help us strategically.
It should not. Otherwise, next you will be arguing that the
chicken /fish/etc. factory owners should be excused because
their meat/eggs after being eaten might increase the chances of
our non-vegan enemies getting cancer sooner and thus dying
sooner.
--- End Quote ---
In effect, what you're getting at is that once we start
tolerating evil, speculating that it will benefit us in the long
run, we will eventually lose our will to fight evil at all,
potentially allowing for infinite evil to be committed, correct?
To that extent I agree with you and stand corrected accordingly.
That being said, as for the topic itself, I'm still not buying
the racism (as in pro-"white)-angle. There are heaps of
non-"whites" in Ukraine besides the ethnic groups that have
reported discrimination, which, as far as I know, have not
reported discrimination (Crimean Tatars, Chechens, Georgians,
Azeris, Armenians, Uzbeks, Koreans etc.). Surely, at least some
of them will have fled as well, using the same routes and border
checkpoints the non-"whites" that have reported discrimination
were using.
Until I see evidence that these non-"whites" were similarly
discriminated against, I will treat it as a case of ethnic
stereotyping against some non-"whites", but not against other
non-"whites", thus not a consistently pro-"white" policy.
#Post#: 12593--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rightists getting leftism wrong
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: April 7, 2022, 9:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
"There are heaps of non-"whites" in Ukraine besides the ethnic
groups that have reported discrimination, which, as far as I
know, have not reported discrimination (Crimean Tatars,
Chechens, Georgians, Azeris, Armenians, Uzbeks, Koreans etc.)."
I will assume this to be true.
"I will treat it as a case of ethnic stereotyping against some
non-"whites", but not against other non-"whites", thus not a
consistently pro-"white" policy."
Some "non-whites" are negatively affected by this ethnic
stereotyping. Other "non-whites" are not negatively affected by
this ethnic sterotyping.
However, no "whites" are negatively affected by this ethnic
stereotyping.
Therefore:
Total number of "non-whites" negatively affected >0
Total number of "whites" negatively affected =0
How then is such ethnic stereotyping not a consistently
pro-"white" bias? (I have never claimed it was a 'policy'. It
could be just racists being themselves.)
In order for me to possibly accept your claim that there is no
pro-"white" bias, you would have to present at least some cases
where "whites" have reported discrimination against themselves
in favour of "non-whites", which would then potentially balance
out the numerous cases already documented where "non-whites"
have reported discrimination against themselves in favour of
"whites".
#Post#: 12602--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rightists getting leftism wrong
DIR By: Dazhbog
Date: April 8, 2022, 3:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: 90sRetroFan link ---
> In order for me to possibly accept your claim that there is no
pro-"white" bias, you would have to present at least some cases
where "whites" have reported discrimination against themselves
in favour of "non-whites", which would then potentially balance
out the numerous cases already documented where "non-whites"
have reported discrimination against themselves in favour of
"whites".
--- End Quote ---
Well, I can at least produce this:
HTML https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/01/world/europe/ukraine-refugee-discrimination.html
--- Quote ---
> Ahmed Habboubi, a 22-year-old French-Tunisian medical student,
said all foreign nationals, including Africans, Israelis,
Canadians and Americans, were told to go to one gate at the
Medyka crossing from Ukraine to Poland, which would only process
four people every couple of hours, while Ukrainians were allowed
to pass freely through another gate.
--- End Quote ---
To be fair, many Israelis, Canadians and Americans are
non-"white". However, Habboubi doesn't specify that only the
non-"white" ones were selected for the "foreign" queue, so we
will have to assume that his description includes "white"
Israelis, Canadians and Americans. Couple that with the lack of
evidence regarding the discrimination of the non-"white" groups
I mentioned above, which without evidence to the contrary
implies that most of them must have been accepted into the
"Ukrainian" queue. In other words, it is at least conceivable
that the "foreign" queue may have contained "whites" and the
"Ukrainian" queue may have contained non-"whites".
This admittedly doesn't by default imply that these "whites"
were excluded to accommodate non-"whites" in a scenario where
there is only one place left in the "Ukrainian" queue and the
individual doing the selection is forced to choose between
non-"white" individual A and "white" individual B. As far as
this is what you're looking for, I have to concede defeat for
now.
#Post#: 12784--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rightists getting leftism wrong
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: April 13, 2022, 4:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1360939/
--- Quote ---
> A List of Things Leftists Hate
--- End Quote ---
Let's see how well our enemies understand us.....
--- Quote ---
> — White men (they’re racist oppressors who had the colossal
nerve to invent everything)
--- End Quote ---
Yes, they are. (Jews even more so.)
--- Quote ---
> — traditional family values (they’re sexist and homophobic)
--- End Quote ---
Yes, they are.
--- Quote ---
> — children (they’re a burden and they’re expensive, too)
--- End Quote ---
We do not hate children. We hate those who violently force
children to be born. Children are their victims who had no
choice in the matter:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-false-left/re-childcare-issues/
Continuing:
--- Quote ---
> — old people (they’re a burden; “rest homes exist for a
reason!”)
--- End Quote ---
We do not hate old people who never reproduced; in fact we
respect them with more certainty than we respect younger people
who have not (so far) reproduced, since the former have already
made it fully past reproductive age without reproducing, whereas
the latter might still do so later.
--- Quote ---
> — conservatives (they’re all racists and haters!)
--- End Quote ---
Conservatives are racists, but not haters. We are the haters (of
racists):
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-false-left/true-left-breakthrough-hate/
Continuing:
--- Quote ---
> — traditions (they’re corny and old-fashioned)
--- End Quote ---
We do hate tradition, but not because they are old-fashioned,
but because they are traditional (ie. intergenerationally
transmitted by crushing Original Nobility and filling the void
left behind). There is plenty to like about anti-traditional
ideas from thousands of years ago.
--- Quote ---
> — facts and truth (leftists must hide facts and truth, which
hinder the “progressive” agenda, e.g., racial differences)
--- End Quote ---
We are not progressives. We also have no problem with discussing
racial differences:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/human-evolution/
Continuing:
--- Quote ---
> — religion (but Islam is okay)
--- End Quote ---
All anti-tribalist religions are OK.
--- Quote ---
> — racial solidarity (unless Blacks and Browns have it/show it,
then it’s okay!)
--- End Quote ---
No, we criticize those who self-identify as "black" or "brown".
We tell them they should be self-identifying as "non-white".
Folkish solidarity is what we want!
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/human-evolution/ethnotribalism-the-computer-simulation/
Continuing:
--- Quote ---
> — patriotism (how horrible!)
--- End Quote ---
Patriotism is fine if it means willingness to work at what
serves the country's needs even if it is less well-paid.
Patriotism is horrible if it means perceiving one's own country
as the in-group and other countries as the out-group.
--- Quote ---
> — national sovereignty (how horrible!)
--- End Quote ---
National sovereignty with accountability is fine. National
sovereignty without accountability is horrible.
--- Quote ---
> — suburbs (too White)
--- End Quote ---
Also too reliant on cars.
--- Quote ---
> — the Midwest (too White)
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/demographic-blueshift/
will solve the problem.
--- Quote ---
> — classical music (too White)
--- End Quote ---
Also too complicated, and most importantly of all is an
oppressor of countless children forced to learn it (and you say
we hate children?).
--- Quote ---
> — heterosexuals (too normal)
--- End Quote ---
We do not hate "heterosexuals" who do not reproduce.
--- Quote ---
> — guns (they’re very dangerous!)
--- End Quote ---
We wish guns had never been invented, but since they have, the
best thing we can do is point them towards the civilization
responsible for their spread:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-false-left/firearms/
--- Quote ---
> — small governments (“governments must be huge and must
control everything!”)
--- End Quote ---
Governments should not control what people do in private that
doesn't affect anyone else. It's rightists who think governments
should do that.
--- Quote ---
> — capitalism (rich White men exploiting Black people)
--- End Quote ---
And adding more and more:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/population-and-demographics/
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/news/climate-weather-and-climate-effects-2020-and-beyond/
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-sustainable-evil/
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-is-a-health-hazard/
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/if-western-civilization-does-not-die-soon/
to the world along the way.
--- Quote ---
> — rich people (unless they’re liberal, then they’re okay)
--- End Quote ---
We are not liberals. Rich leftists are preferable to rich
rightists, but we still despise them if they live extravagantly
or otherwise use their money to further complexify the economy.
--- Quote ---
> — low taxes (“Black people need our tax dollars!”)
--- End Quote ---
I think there is typo here and our enemies actually mean high
taxes. We certainly believe that no one should have more money
than is required to live in modest comfort, so all money beyond
this should indeed be taxed.
--- Quote ---
> — Ronald Reagan (“Under his presidency, the rich got richer
and the poor got poorer!” aka, zero-sum thinking)[1].
--- End Quote ---
I keep saying Reagan wasn't that bad:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/news/linda-sarsour-disavowed-by-biden-camp/msg10284/#msg10284
Continuing:
--- Quote ---
> — Donald Trump (“He’s just like Hitler, only taller! He has
millions of robotic, racist followers who obey his every wish!
He’s a danger to our democracy!”)
--- End Quote ---
Yes, we hate Trump. No, Trump was nothing like Hitler. And we
hate democracy, whereas Trump is a democrat (he keeps talking
about how he won the 2020 election).
#Post#: 15628--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rightists getting leftism wrong
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: September 13, 2022, 7:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Mainstream journalism finally pointing out the rightist failure
to understand BLM that I have been pointing out for years:
HTML https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/12/opinion/eliza-fletcher-memphis-violence.html
--- Quote ---
> “Say her name,” they tweet, as though there could possibly be
an analogy between Ms. Fletcher’s death, allegedly at the hands
of a man whom the Shelby County district attorney has
characterized as a lone killer, and Breonna Taylor’s killing at
the hands of the Louisville Metro Police Department.
--- End Quote ---
When Fletcher is killed and Abston is promptly arrested, it
shows that accountability is already occurring, therefore no one
needs to say Fletcher's name.
When Taylor is killed and no one is arrested for years, it shows
that accountability is not occurring, therefore everyone needs
to say Taylor's name.
Rightists do not understand the above, therefore misappropriate
the BLM slogan for their own use.
--- Quote ---
> “Say her name,” they tweet, as though Black women aren’t raped
and killed every single day without making national news.
> ...
> the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation processed the DNA
involved in Ms. Fletcher’s killing in a matter of hours because
of a rush request by the Memphis Police Department. No rush
request was made in the rape case from last year.
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/news/police-rightist-bias/
#Post#: 24464--------------------------------------------------
Re: Racial View of Western Philosopher from John Locke to Karl
Marx
DIR By: antihellenistic
Date: December 15, 2023, 8:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
J.R.R. Tolkien
--- Quote ---
> One of its most interesting aspects was overlooked. The
television series lingers over the fall of Númenor, the greatest
civilization of man. A beautiful city with traditional
architecture (made of white marble that drives journalists and
academics crazy), the show stripped it of its mystique to fit
its ham-handed political messages. The city as full of
xenophobes worried about “elf-lovers” taking their jobs.
However, Númenor is an important symbolic setting for Tolkien,
about a people that is deceived into abandoning true religion
for the worship of temporal power. In his letters, Tolkien
linked this story of a collapsed civilization reclaimed by the
sea to Atlantis. He admitted he was haunted by “the legend or
myth or dim memory of some ancient history.”
>
> The question of whether Tolkien’s writing was “for” Westerners
is fiercely debated. He famously refused to work with a
publishing house in National Socialist Germany after it asked
for proof of Aryan lineage. In a letter to his son, Tolkien also
called Adolf Hitler an “ignoramus” and accused him of
“perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that
noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I
have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light.” Yet
claiming Tolkien for the modern, anti-white Left is like
claiming that the anti-Hitler views of Churchill or de Gaulle
make them anti-racists. Certainly, Tolkien would have rejected
the idea that only certain people are allowed to read or
interpret certain stories, but would also have scorned the idea
that whites — and whites alone — have no culture to be proud of.
>
> ...
>
> Tolkien deeply loved the literature and mythology of Europe,
particularly that of the Anglo-Saxons, and was professor of
Anglo-Saxon at Oxford. While the same endowed chair still
exists, the International Society of Anglo-Saxonists has changed
its name to avoid accusations of racism, and Cambridge is
crusading against the very concept of Anglo-Saxons. Anyone who,
like Tolkien, admitted to a particular love for “that noble
northern spirit” would hardly survive in modern academia.
However, his work has been grandfathered in and can be only
subverted, not expunged. Tolkien’s work is one of few relatively
recent cultural creations that derives entirely from European
mythology and even now, despite attempts at subversion and even
perversion, retains its beauty. Young readers, especially,
should learn why this work has such an impact. Armand Berger’s
Tolkien, Europe, and Tradition is up to the task.
--- End Quote ---
Source :
Tolkien: The Homer of the Anglosphere - Gregory Hood, American
Renaissance, December 15, 2023
HTML https://www.amren.com/features/2023/12/tolkien-the-homer-of-the-anglosphere/
#Post#: 24465--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Racial View of Western Philosopher from John Locke to
Karl Marx
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: December 15, 2023, 9:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Our enemies are completely wrong about Tolkien being a rightist.
He was part of the Romantic movement arguing that the
Renaissance should never have happened, which we agree with. In
LOTR, Orcs represent the Industrial Revolution:
HTML https://medium.com/literally-literary/isengard-represented-the-industrial-revolution-because-tolkien-hated-technology-6ed05430ecce
--- Quote ---
> In Middle-earth everything is in decay. And a new force is
rising: the force of darkness. It becomes apparent, not only
through orcs and Uruks, but through a will to supplant the old
world. The method: modernization.
>
> In both the movies and books we see Isengard, the home of
Saruman the White, go from forest to factory. Why: to build an
army for the dark lord Sauron, who is coming to claim the world.
Where trees once rested, swords and armor are being forged deep
in the earth. And in the midst of this is the enemy. Their tool
of destruction is steel. And flames.
>
> And the forest pays the price. Numerous trees are cut down and
burned. Tolkien is showing that in order for this new,
mechanical world to prosper, it must abolish the old one
completely.
> ...
> the villains of the story (Saruman and co., Sauron) are
associated with machines.
> ...
> Tolkien’s views reflect a hard look at modern society.
England’s Industrial Revolution, the culprit, had lasted from
1760 to about 1870, creating a brand new system of labor, trade,
and transportation. Rural life was fast declining in the wake of
urban cities and factories. With the Industrial Revolution came
a new wave of hazards as well: pollutants, sewage problems,
sanitation, workplace injuries, and a plethora of various
diseases.
--- End Quote ---
whereas Hobbits represent an idealization of a clearly
pre-Renaissance lifestyle, as I pointed out here:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/issues/wmds/msg100/#msg100
--- Quote ---
> (recall Tolkien's description of Hobbits: "no understanding of
machinery more complicated than the watermill, forge bellows,
and the hand loom")
--- End Quote ---
This is how Tolkien wished Britain could have stayed instead of
becoming the British Empire. I agree with him. Do not confuse
Tolkien with his illiterate Eurocentrist fans (including Hood):
HTML https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6p3eke/in_tolkiens_work_orcs_represented_industry_and/
--- Quote ---
> Tolkien was an author traumatised by industrialised 20th
century warfare, and there is definitely something of the
industrialised military in his the portrayal of orcs - and
especially of his portrayal of the orcs in Isengard.
> ...
> However, the authors and tabletop gaming pioneers following in
Tolkien's wake didn't have the same theological compunction
> ...
> such writers fundamentally identify evil with stupidity and
savagery
> ...
> Warhammer Fantasy Battle came to the tabletop, depicting orcs
and goblins with bows and axes contrasted with humans and dwarfs
with pistols and cannon
--- End Quote ---
The difference between Tolkien and his illiterate Eurocentrist
fans is the same as the difference between Hitler and neo-Nazis.
The irony is that Tolkien himself confused Hitler with the
neo-Nazi portrayal of Hitler (and hence disliking the latter
thought he disliked the former).
Also, in real life:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien_and_race#Opposition_to_racism_in_South_Africa
--- Quote ---
> Tolkien's son Christopher, training in South Africa, expressed
concern about the treatment of black people at the hands of
whites, and his father replied:[T 12]
>
> As for what you say or hint of 'local' conditions: I knew of
them. I don't think they have much changed (even for the worse).
I used to hear them discussed by my mother; and have ever since
taken a special interest in that part of the world. The
treatment of colour nearly always horrifies anyone going out
from Britain & not only in South Africa. Unfort[unately] not
many retain that generous sentiment for long.[T 12]
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 26431--------------------------------------------------
Re: Rightists getting leftism wrong
DIR By: 90sRetroFan
Date: May 14, 2024, 3:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://vdare.com/posts/pro-palestinian-vandalism-of-central-park-wwi-memorial-motivated-by-nihilism-anti-americanism
--- Quote ---
>
HTML https://vdare.com/public_upload/publication/featured_image/61950/vdare-wwi.jpeg
>
> Anti-Israel protester, 16, arrested for vandalizing Central
Park WWI memorial
> ...
> So what kind of point were these vandals trying to make on
Monday, defacing the memorial with graffiti and stickers of the
Palestine flag?
>
> No kind of point. They just wanted to show each other how bold
they are in their hatred of the USA. Nihilism doesn't need any
point or reason.
--- End Quote ---
Actually, the point is to raise awareness that Jews were by far
the biggest winners of WWI (in which the US fought on the wrong
side):
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration
--- Quote ---
> The Balfour Declaration was a public statement issued by the
British Government in 1917 during the First World War announcing
its support for the establishment of a "national home for the
Jewish people" in Palestine, then an Ottoman region with a small
minority Jewish population. The declaration was contained in a
letter dated 2 November 1917 from the United Kingdom's Foreign
Secretary Arthur Balfour to Lord Rothschild, a leader of the
British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist
Federation of Great Britain and Ireland. The text of the
declaration was published in the press on 9 November 1917.
>
> Immediately following Britain's declaration of war on the
Ottoman Empire in November 1914, it began to consider the future
of Palestine. Within two months a memorandum was circulated to
the War Cabinet by a Zionist member, Herbert Samuel, proposing
the support of Zionist ambitions in order to enlist the support
of Jews in the wider war.
> ...
> The release of the final declaration was authorised on 31
October; the preceding Cabinet discussion had referenced
perceived propaganda benefits amongst the worldwide Jewish
community for the Allied war effort.
> ...
> The declaration had many long-lasting consequences. It greatly
increased popular support for Zionism within Jewish communities
worldwide, and became a core component of the British Mandate
for Palestine, the founding document of Mandatory Palestine. It
indirectly led to the emergence of the State of Israel and is
considered a principal cause of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian
conflict
--- End Quote ---
See also:
HTML https://trueleft.createaforum.com/enemies/israel/msg352/#msg352
*****************************************************
Page 2 of 4
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page