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#Post#: 19025--------------------------------------------------
Debate; did Vince MacMahon Ruin Wrestling?
By: SheriffLonestar Date: October 4, 2013, 2:24 pm
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Our good friend ROBERT LAIRD stated on a post earlier today;
"Back before McMohn started his illegal monopoly of pro
wrestling we had something like 8 major alliances not thanks to
everyone having to sell their companies to WWF/WWE we are now
down to just the two."
Read the full post here;
HTML http://www.tnafanforum.com/news-4/breaking-news-hulk-hogan-has-gone-from-tna/msg19005/#msg19005
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Now I got to thinking and I have my own views on the subject,
which I will relate at the end of this post. However first a
little background.
The current WWE grew out of the New York territory which was
brought to prominence in the 1930's by one of the three men who
revolutionized our business; Toots Mondt. Toots, along with
Billy Sandow and Ed The Strangler Lewis. Toots was the founding
father of modern professional wrestling he was the man who
brought theatre to the sport (and it was a sport back then), he
literally invented 90% of the finishing and basic wrestling
holds you see in the ring today (bare in mind Ed Strangelr
Lewis' finisher was a headlock before he started working with
toots and you see what I mean). He invented time limits, tag
teams, story lines, even basic things we take for granted like
having a roster of wrestlers working for one company he was the
man who thought it up, Lewis was the man who executed it and
Sandow was the man with the money who promoted it. Mondt was the
very first true genius of pro wrestling promotion and that is
how it would go when he bought into the most lucrative wrestling
territory in the world; New York.
His protégé in New York was one Vince MacMahon Senior. His co
promoter Jess MacMahon's son. While Mondt slipped into the
background Vince Snr. Took over the book. Don't get me wrong
Mondt still had an eye for talent. Bruno Sammartino was his last
great discovery and made sure Vince Snr. took him as Champion at
great political and monetary cost to the company, but Mondt saw
the future in the American Italian. What Mondt couldn't see was
the future of how television was going to change the product.
MacMahon could and he rode the talent Mondt scouted in the 60's
and 70's to great heights and used the territory system to his
advantage. Andre The Giant was a permanent attachment to the
WWWF but Vince Snr. had the sense to send him out all over the
world so he did not get stale. Vince Snr. exploited TV in much
the same way Mondt had moved wrestling from vaudeville theaters
to sports arenas in the 30s. Yet there was another chapter to be
had in WWWF story of domination.
While New York and its territory, going as far south as the
Carolinas and as North as Toronto, did great business it had no
intention of moving out of these de-marked areas. Despite having
its own World Champion, the WWWF Champion, it was still a proud
member of the NWA. Vince Snr. Also knew which side his bread was
buttered. Without Giant Baba, Eddie Graham, Fritz Von Erich, The
Funks, The Lebell's even The Crabtrees in the UK, and all the
other promoters around the country and the world, he had no
talent pool to refresh aging veterans and to find new stars for
his territory. The NWA was a closed shop cartel that made sure
everyone was in their place and everyone made money. Especially
in New York where the fans appreciated the show more than the
match and you could earn a lot more for doing a lot less. It was
wrestling heaven where every big star wanted to be. The status
quo benefited everyone in the business.
In 1982 Vince Snr. sold the WWWF to Vince Kennedy MacMahon. As
Vince has said "Had my father known what I was going to do," the
younger McMahon told Sports Illustrated in 1991, "he never would
have sold his stock to me." Vince Jnr. left the NWA and set
about systematically taking the WWF nationwide. All those
regional territories than Snr relied upon went under the hammer
to the WWF as it grew riding the popularity of cable television,
and Hulk Hogan, to new heights in the same way his father had
done with local TV years before. He used the leverage of the New
York market (and his father's money) to push TV into the
territories, take over the programming and then bringing in
house shows that went up against the local companies and 9 times
out of 10 it was a success. The result as you know is the market
we see today as one by one every major territory fell.
So here is the question; Did Vince ruin wrestling?
This one will run for as long as there is wrestling and back in
the day I have no doubt if their where message boards they would
have been talking about how Toots had ruined the old style for
everyone. However innovation is how things survive. Wrestling is
market reactive, it evolves or it dies. Do I think it was unfair
of Vince to move into other territories against time honoured
tradition? No I don't, there where at least two other promoters
who where poised to do the same thing; Fritz Von Erich whose
Dallas territory had far better TV penetration than the WWWF had
at the time and should have pulled the trigger on getting bigger
but insisted that "Texas was big enough for my boys", and there
was Bill Watts who was putting more people into the Superdome in
New Orleans than Wrestlemania will next year back in the 80's.
Both of them could have done the same thing, and if anything
Watts and Von Erich had more chance of success; they had
stronger rosters than the WWF and a more attractive in ring
style. However Fritz wouldn't and Bill got burned out before he
could. Every other promoter just simply wasn't good enough,
innovative enough, didn't work hard enough or wasn't rich enough
(except WCW), to keep going. Was it good for business? No it was
horrible for wrestling because instead of having 8 places to
work that where of a high standard you now had two. The
wrestling business relied on people coming up through the
territories making their name and moving on. There where very
few veterans trying to protect their spots because they didn't
have to they could just move somewhere else when they felt, or
the promoter felt they had gotten stale. In fact the WWE
suffered because when the final death knell blew on WCW, the
main impetuous for them to be good was gone. It took a couple of
years but the spiral started and the wheels fell off and it
wasn't until Punk pulled a pipe bomb that it picked back up
again.
Is the WWE a illegal monopoly? Only in the same sense as the old
NWA was an illegal cartel, in fact a lot less savory than you
could possibly imagine. It was a sexist, borderline criminal
organisation that though I will cherish its memory and history
in the ring, was horrible to wrestlers outside of it.
That's my opinion, whats yours?
#Post#: 19082--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate; did Vince MacMahon Ruin Wrestling?
By: ROBERT LAIRD Date: October 4, 2013, 11:10 pm
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Your post was very well written. When I mentioned illegal
monopoly I was referring to one person owning the whole product.
By this I meant WWE, ECW, WCW, WCCW, Global and others. That
made only one major American company until TNA started their
product. WWE used to advertise ECW as a separate alliance but
everyone knew that it wasn't a separate alliance when the same
person owned it along with RAW and Smackdown brands. So how
could this be a separate brand when it was owned by one person
and there was so much cross over among the three programs? When
people started saying that WWE should purchase TNA I kept saying
that pro wrestling needs the completion and it would not be good
for American pro wrestling if TNA would fall into the hands of
McMahon because he would do the same thing to TNA as he did to
WCW and the other companies. Competition is good for business no
matter what the business is. Evidently this completion doesn't
work in all markets, just look at the oil companies. All gas
stations ask the same price no matter what brand they offer.
That subject is for another web site's blog. I really believe
that for TNA to succeed to be a vital competitor to WWE they
have to sign one or two main eventers away from WWE like WCW did
when they signed Hall, Nash and Hogan. By signing those three
wrestlers that started a major competition between the two
companies and almost ended WWE until Turner sold Time Warner
which made it impossible for WCW to continue because they had no
television contract. Problem is from everything I've been
reading about TNA's financial problems they can make this kind
of offer to the bigger WWE stars like WCW did.
#Post#: 19083--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate; did Vince MacMahon Ruin Wrestling?
By: SheriffLonestar Date: October 5, 2013, 1:27 am
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I totally agree that the WWE needs competition as the old adage
goes you run faster when your being chased. If you look at Japan
while WWE goes well there, they have to compete with All Japan,
NJPW, Dragon Gate and NOAH and are a little down the totem pole
when it comes to attendance on their Japanese shows. Something
Vince has been trying to fix for along time since WWE broke into
the market with SWS in the early 90s.
#Post#: 19122--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate; did Vince MacMahon Ruin Wrestling?
By: Loudandproud205 Date: October 5, 2013, 4:19 pm
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Yes he has but with out his push would it ever have been as
mainstream as it is now?
For every bad turn/decision made there has always been good
somewhere along the line.
I have done my upmost over the years to avoid WWF/E, the last
time I watched any of it was Hogan, Jake the Snake, Bret Heart
and the Ultimate Warrior.
#Post#: 19129--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate; did Vince MacMahon Ruin Wrestling?
By: SheriffLonestar Date: October 5, 2013, 4:45 pm
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That is the flip side of course. It concentrated the talent
pool, but also it gave those few a much wider base. Without
Vince pro wrestling would still be a regional niche product.
#Post#: 19134--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate; did Vince MacMahon Ruin Wrestling?
By: ROBERT LAIRD Date: October 5, 2013, 4:58 pm
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Maybe it was better as a regional product? I enjoyed in my area
watching AWA stars. When I went to St. Louis area for visits I
got to watch NWA talent, and when I would go to the east coast I
got to watch the WWF stars. It made for a good variety. Now no
matter where you go in the U.S. or even other countries you will
see the same stars no matter region you go to. So as variety
purposes did the WWE take over actually help the industry? In
some ways yes and in a lot of ways the answer would be no.
McMahon turned wrestling into more of a cartoon gimmick with
the Hulkamania, Macho Man era than wrestling. Like Hogan said
when the product becomes bigger than the company he works for
then something is wrong. Hogan did become bigger than WWF/E.
Even though Hogan doesn't wrestle anymore he's still a big draw
whether you like him or not. Any time you have Hogan or Sting on
your show the attendance will go up even after 35 years of being
in the realm of "Sports Entertainment".
#Post#: 19137--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate; did Vince MacMahon Ruin Wrestling?
By: SheriffLonestar Date: October 5, 2013, 5:09 pm
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I think there was a golden period for a while there, certainly
Hogan wasn't the only act that swung in that era. The Road
Warriors, Ric Flair and other stars that had regional success
shone in that era and the local promoters did big business when
Hogan was big because there was a residual effect of wrestling
just being big by itself.
I think Vince summed up his attitude to wrestling when Ted
Turner bought out Georgia Championship Wrestling. He called
Vince and said "Guess what Vince? I'm in the rasslin' business."
Vince replied "well thats Great Ted 'cause I'm in the
entertainment business.". His attitude in that phone call was
double edged though. As much as Vince had his finger on the
pulse of popular culture and was one step ahead of the curve in
presentation, he never cracked certain markets with as much
penetration as he would have liked. There where territories that
did big business as WWF Went national. Bill Watt's Mid South,
Dallas, and Memphis did incredibly well in that period, but they
where very market specific products. Bill knew that his fans
wanted a very realistic episodic approach, and if you watch
those old tapes now you can see where Monday Night Raw came
from. Memphis had the trifecta of Jerry Lawler, Bill Dundee and
Dutch Mantell, and any combination of face and heel you chose to
pick from those three could fill the Mid South Coliseum whenever
they wanted. Of course Dallas had the Von Erichs and The
Freebirds and rode that into the ground.
Here is a poser though, what if Verne Gagne had seen the light
and pulled the trigger on a Hulk Hogan title reign instead of
teasing it? Would the WWF have gotten out of the starting blocks
at all as a national promotion?
#Post#: 19163--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate; did Vince MacMahon Ruin Wrestling?
By: ROBERT LAIRD Date: October 5, 2013, 11:00 pm
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[quote author=SheriffLonestar link=topic=3778.msg19137#msg19137
date=1381010970]
I think there was a golden period for a while there, certainly
Hogan wasn't the only act that swung in that era. The Road
Warriors, Ric Flair and other stars that had regional success
shone in that era and the local promoters did big business when
Hogan was big because there was a residual effect of wrestling
just being big by itself.
I think Vince summed up his attitude to wrestling when Ted
Turner bought out Georgia Championship Wrestling. He called
Vince and said "Guess what Vince? I'm in the rasslin' business."
Vince replied "well thats Great Ted 'cause I'm in the
entertainment business.". His attitude in that phone call was
double edged though. As much as Vince had his finger on the
pulse of popular culture and was one step ahead of the curve in
presentation, he never cracked certain markets with as much
penetration as he would have liked. There where territories that
did big business as WWF Went national. Bill Watt's Mid South,
Dallas, and Memphis did incredibly well in that period, but they
where very market specific products. Bill knew that his fans
wanted a very realistic episodic approach, and if you watch
those old tapes now you can see where Monday Night Raw came
from. Memphis had the trifecta of Jerry Lawler, Bill Dundee and
Dutch Mantell, and any combination of face and heel you chose to
pick from those three could fill the Mid South Coliseum whenever
they wanted. Of course Dallas had the Von Erichs and The
Freebirds and rode that into the ground.
Here is a poser though, what if Verne Gagne had seen the light
and pulled the trigger on a Hulk Hogan title reign instead of
teasing it? Would the WWF have gotten out of the starting blocks
at all as a national promotion?
[/quote]This is a very good question. Gagne for some reason
didn't want certain people to ever win the AWA title, like
Hogan, or Robinson. Gagne really didn't know how to run a
wrestling promotion this is why during the WWE started taking
away the good talent from AWA, Mid South, WCCW and others proved
that Gagne didn't know how to combat McMahon also he probably
didn't have the money to compete with. The biggest mistake that
as far as I'm concerned is when he allowed Otto Wanz and Stan
Hansen win the AWA title. Neither one were good enough to pull
the attendance into the arenas. At least Gagne allowed someone
like David Arquette to ever win the title like WCW did.
#Post#: 19165--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate; did Vince MacMahon Ruin Wrestling?
By: SheriffLonestar Date: October 6, 2013, 12:41 am
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I liked Otto and boy was he over in Austria, but I can see why
he wouldn't cut it in MN. Stan was an interesting case though, I
am surprised he let a renegade like Hansen take the belt even
for a short while, he really wasn't the AWA's style. Though I
could tell it was Verne moving on a little bit it was far to
late by then to try and pick up a brawling style.
I can also see why he wouldn't put the belt on Billy, getting it
off of him again would have been virtually impossible as he was
a killer hooker and there where very few hookers that could live
with him in that time period. One of the reasons Billy left the
UK was because his style was so rough that British promoters
didn't like using him as most of their guys where part time and
had to be back at work Monday morning. There are numerous
stories of him going into business for himself. I've just been
reading The Dynamite Kid's book and he told a story that Billy
was wrestling Archie Gouldie in Stampede, the winner got to face
Harley Race for the NWA Title the following week. As Dynamite
put it "Billy was giving Archie a hard time, which isn't
surprising because Billy gave everyone a hard time." Archie gave
up and walked off in the end.
I think to that Verne missed the boat with Hogan, he probably
would have gone to the WWF in the end or gone back to Japan
permanently in the end. The money was way to good not to, but
Verne could have kept him happier for longer. He was so over in
the AWA it was ludicrous and I just don't get it. I know he had
a thing for "Wrestlers" being champion, hence why Bockwinkel
held the belt so many times and Bockwinkel was a great, great
champion of his era. The AWA just didn't seem to realise
potential well enough in the long run and they had all the tools
at their disposal to make it as the number one promotion if they
planned it right.
Okay so next question, would Fritz have made it as a national
promotion?
#Post#: 19220--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate; did Vince MacMahon Ruin Wrestling?
By: ROBERT LAIRD Date: October 6, 2013, 2:53 pm
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The story I had read why Otto Wanz won the title was because he
offered Gagne a lot of money if Gagne would let him win the belt
even if just for a little while. The wrestling magazines at that
time said that AWA had to be kidding that someone like Wanz
would win the title. One of the bigger mistakes that Verne Gagne
made was allowing his son to become the champion for a little
while. You had a lot better wrestlers or showmen than Greg
Gagne. You had the likes of Larry Zybysco, Nick Bockwinkle, Ray
Stevens, Hogan, Curt Hennig, both Road Warriors and even Greg's
partner was a better wrestler than Greg. That happened to be Jim
Brunzell. Plus you had the duo of Marty Jannety and Shawn
Michaels both were a lot better at being a showman than Greg
Gagne. But.... like stated Gagne didn't really know how to
promote his wrestlers. The way WCW promoted their wrestlers they
must have learned by watching Verne Gagne. WCW also didn't
really know how to promote their wrestlers. Where Vince McMahon
was smart enough to know how to promote. When he stole Hogan
from AWA McMahon knew how to promote Hogan to make him a comic
book hero. Hogan's manager Freddie Blassie even said that
ability wise Hogan would be rated a one but as a showman Hogan
would be rated a 10.
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