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#Post#: 118--------------------------------------------------
What board to build?
DIR By: stevez
Date: April 2, 2020, 3:07 am
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With the lockdown, I've got a bit of extra time on my hands, and
I'm thinking of building a wing specific board.
The problem is I'm not sure what kind of board to build. At the
moment I have a 5'5" SUP (104L) and I weight 76kg.
It's cool, will do for now, but I can already see how I might
want a little smaller, lighter and to shape it slightly
differently.
There are things that you care about on a SUP that I don't think
matter for a wingboard.
The options are either:
a) Build a board around 80L that can be started kneeling.
b) Build a board for a sinking start of somewhere between 45 and
65 L (I don't know).
I'm happy to build a board I can grow into - i.e. I don't yet
have the skills to ride.
I understand there are pros and cons to both - for a sinking
start I'd imagine you need quite a bit more wind, which means
you need a bigger wing for the same amount of wind. But it's
nice to have as small a board as possible. I'm used to kiting on
my 82cm pocketboard and really feel the difference of a small
board, but it's also nice to be able to ride with less power. At
least that's how I feel as a kitefoiler.
What are the optimal volumes?
For kneeling start I imagine you kind of need it to be body
weight in kgs or pretty close.
For a submerged start I have no idea. I've seen people start (in
videos) with very small prone boards down to 30L. That must be
pretty hard.
But if it's too buoyant, maybe it's harder to push the board
down and get your feet on it. So what is ideal? And do you need
footstraps? - I'm generally a strapless guy.
Thanks in advance for thoughts and tips!
#Post#: 119--------------------------------------------------
Re: What board to build?
DIR By: phil
Date: April 2, 2020, 4:07 am
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I would go for kneel start board of around BW minus 10 to 15 L.
Keep the shape simple (like the F-One wing specific board) and
not like the Fanatic wing board with concave deck and scoops on
the bottom. A handle of some kind is important.
#Post#: 126--------------------------------------------------
Re: What board to build?
DIR By: Dommo
Date: April 2, 2020, 10:31 am
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If it was me doing this (and I wish it was but I don't have the
skills) I would go for the smaller board. Reason - the
difference between an 80ltr and a 104ltr board isn't going to be
that big (24 ltrs to be exact), which will reduce further when
you go down in size like you say you will do soon, so the
difference when that happens will potentially be negligible. The
difference between the smaller board (whether 45 or 65ltrs) and
whatever size 'big' board you end up with will not only be
noticeable, but also will give you a totally different sensation
when flying, AND will give you a chance to make the most of
different conditions - a light wind board and a board for
howling conditions maybe! I don't see the point in having two
boards that are so similar in size, even if they are different
designs. I know your 'big' board will be SUP specific rather
than wing specific, but IMO a good SUP board can wing well, but
a wing board isn't necessarily good at SUPing.
#Post#: 135--------------------------------------------------
Re: What board to build?
DIR By: stenninger
Date: April 2, 2020, 3:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I just finished one today.
My lockdown project:
5.9 92l 5.9kg
[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]
I could share the Shape 3DX file if someone is interested
#Post#: 136--------------------------------------------------
Re: What board to build?
DIR By: Slyde
Date: April 2, 2020, 7:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I just finished a wingboard about 6 weeks ago. I learned on a
6'6" 115l board and decided I wanted to make something smaller
but because I always seem to be out in conditions that are
patchy where I need to get in potentially in displacement I mode
I decided I was going to go for something in the 90-100l range.
I think I nailed the brief pretty well. My next project will be
one that is a little less user friendly in terms of volume.. I
went for 5'2" x26". 5" thick to get about 100l volume in the
board so that once it was laminated the 6 or so kilos its would
weigh would give me about 94l. I think I probably ended up at
about 85-90l effective volume. Hard to be sure. It works fine
for my 73kg. I learnt a few things that Ill share with you. I
decided to use high density polystyrene at 2kg/m3 so that a 100l
l blank would weigh 2 kg. I didnt want to skin the whole blank
with PU foam -too much hassle for a homer. I also wanted to make
it really bomber because I was using a harness and the hook can
cause a bit of damage, also Im hard on my gear so I was prepared
to sacrifice some weight for durability -cant have it both ways.
I decide on a low rocker, essentially flat from midway to tail
but using a deck that curved up a bit to keep some nose volume.
Some have a flat deck so loose nose volume - a mistake IMHO. I
also went for a flat bottom - no concaves blah blah blah. You
watch. In 5 years everyone will have ditched the concave idea.
At some point it creates derocker and increases your wetted
surface area. I dont believe in concaves. I went with rail
chines with a straight bevel, not contoured to the rail shape,
to decrease drag and also wetted surface on take off. I put a
tail kick but I really dont know if this is useful. Looks cool I
guess. Usual high density patches for the fin boxes, handle, and
a large deck patch for footbeds. Lamination was 2 layers carbon
weave plus a uni strip in the middle and extra patches nose and
tail and boxes. Handle on the bottom. No footstraps. It came out
about 6.5 kg. Its really strong, like really strong. Super happy
with it and it works in very light winds through to high winds.
A real step up from the 6'6"in terms of performance.
So what would I do different next time?
I would go smaller, maybe aim for 80l to get a board of about
75l effective volume. I would use medium density polystyrene as
with a good laminate it will still be strong enough. That should
cut the blank weight by maybe half to 1 kg. I would do the same
HD foam inserts but I would cover the entire deck with HD foam
so that I could then laminate the deck with 1 layer carbon plus
reinforcing for footbeds. save a bit more weight. I would
laminate the bottom with 2 layers carbon, no uni patches. On the
rails i would not overlap so much carbon. All in all I reckon I
could save maybe 1-2 kg weight yet still be strong enough.
smaller boards have less need of a harness, they are less heavy
to fly.
I would put in footstrap plugs because smaller boards lend
themselves more to jumping. I would also put 2 handles, one top
and one bottom. The bottom one goes well back very close to the
front of the boxes to balance with the foil bolted on.
Of course you need to use a vacuum bag. Almost impossible to do
a good job without.
One other thing Im not sure about, maybe I'm imagining it. I
notice some of the newer boards like mine look like they are
riding in a slightly nose-down attitude. I think having the
board taper very slightly to the tail, maybe only 2 degrees will
mean that the board rides with the nose level with more even leg
length. Ive never seen a fone board but the pictures of their
boards look like thats what they do. Oh yeah be sure to put a
goretex plug in when you have that much volume in your blank.
I have a theory that Im too chicken to try to build in case its
a flop: It seems to me that wing boards never come up on foil by
reaching planing speed. We wait for enough puff to pump the wing
and pump the foil. So why do we use flat rocker? Surely this
hinders pumping the board. Maybe we should have a curved rocker
so the board pumps up more easily. Then no tail kick required
because the rocker does the same thing, just better. I'll wait
for someone else to test that theory.Have fun with your project.
Its actually pretty easy.
#Post#: 137--------------------------------------------------
Re: What board to build?
DIR By: Dommo
Date: April 2, 2020, 11:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi Stenninger and Slyde
Both your project boards look awesome. Can I ask how you got the
skills to make your own boards to such a high quality. Is this
something you taught yourself?
#Post#: 138--------------------------------------------------
Re: What board to build?
DIR By: Dommo
Date: April 2, 2020, 11:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Slyde link ---
>
> I just finished a wingboard about 6 weeks ago. I learned on a
6'6" 115l board and decided I wanted to make something smaller
but because I always seem to be out in conditions that are
patchy where I need to get in potentially in displacement I mode
I decided I was going to go for something in the 90-100l range.
I think I nailed the brief pretty well. My next project will be
one that is a little less user friendly in terms of volume.. I
went for 5'2" x26". 5" thick to get about 100l volume in the
board so that once it was laminated the 6 or so kilos its would
weigh would give me about 94l. I think I probably ended up at
about 85-90l effective volume. Hard to be sure. It works fine
for my 73kg. I learnt a few things that Ill share with you. I
decided to use high density polystyrene at 2kg/m3 so that a 100l
l blank would weigh 2 kg. I didnt want to skin the whole blank
with PU foam -too much hassle for a homer. I also wanted to make
it really bomber because I was using a harness and the hook can
cause a bit of damage, also Im hard on my gear so I was prepared
to sacrifice some weight for durability -cant have it both ways.
I decide on a low rocker, essentially flat from midway to tail
but using a deck that curved up a bit to keep some nose volume.
Some have a flat deck so loose nose volume - a mistake IMHO. I
also went for a flat bottom - no concaves blah blah blah. You
watch. In 5 years everyone will have ditched the concave idea.
At some point it creates derocker and increases your wetted
surface area. I dont believe in concaves. I went with rail
chines with a straight bevel, not contoured to the rail shape,
to decrease drag and also wetted surface on take off. I put a
tail kick but I really dont know if this is useful. Looks cool I
guess. Usual high density patches for the fin boxes, handle, and
a large deck patch for footbeds. Lamination was 2 layers carbon
weave plus a uni strip in the middle and extra patches nose and
tail and boxes. Handle on the bottom. No footstraps. It came out
about 6.5 kg. Its really strong, like really strong. Super happy
with it and it works in very light winds through to high winds.
A real step up from the 6'6"in terms of performance.
> So what would I do different next time?
> I would go smaller, maybe aim for 80l to get a board of about
75l effective volume. I would use medium density polystyrene as
with a good laminate it will still be strong enough. That should
cut the blank weight by maybe half to 1 kg. I would do the same
HD foam inserts but I would cover the entire deck with HD foam
so that I could then laminate the deck with 1 layer carbon plus
reinforcing for footbeds. save a bit more weight. I would
laminate the bottom with 2 layers carbon, no uni patches. On the
rails i would not overlap so much carbon. All in all I reckon I
could save maybe 1-2 kg weight yet still be strong enough.
smaller boards have less need of a harness, they are less heavy
to fly.
> I would put in footstrap plugs because smaller boards lend
themselves more to jumping. I would also put 2 handles, one top
and one bottom. The bottom one goes well back very close to the
front of the boxes to balance with the foil bolted on.
> Of course you need to use a vacuum bag. Almost impossible to
do a good job without.
> One other thing Im not sure about, maybe I'm imagining it. I
notice some of the newer boards like mine look like they are
riding in a slightly nose-down attitude. I think having the
board taper very slightly to the tail, maybe only 2 degrees will
mean that the board rides with the nose level with more even leg
length. Ive never seen a fone board but the pictures of their
boards look like thats what they do. Oh yeah be sure to put a
goretex plug in when you have that much volume in your blank.
> I have a theory that Im too chicken to try to build in case
its a flop: It seems to me that wing boards never come up on
foil by reaching planing speed. We wait for enough puff to pump
the wing and pump the foil. So why do we use flat rocker? Surely
this hinders pumping the board. Maybe we should have a curved
rocker so the board pumps up more easily. Then no tail kick
required because the rocker does the same thing, just better.
I'll wait for someone else to test that theory.Have fun with
your project. Its actually pretty easy.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hey Slyde. Awesome board, I'm in awe of your board making
skills. I completely agree with you about board planing speed.
SUP foil boards (and then wing specific foil boards) started off
long and (relatively) narrow because designers started off with
the idea that a normal SUP board shape would be best, in fact
most of the first foil boards were SUP boards with a tuttle or
dual US tracks glassed in. As shape design progressed (I'm sure
you know all this already) most designs went shorter, wider and
thicker - look at Dave Kalama's designs for example. I've just
had the good fortune to get Jimmy Lewis to design and make me a
foil board (not arrived yet due to f******g travel
restrictions!!!!!!!! :() that would be good for SUP foiling
(waves but mostly downwinding) AND as a light wind wing board.
We had a lot of discussions about hull shape! He is adamant that
in foiling, the foil takes over BEFORE the board gets up to
planing speed, therefore there is no point in having a hull
shape that is designed to plane quickly. Dave Kalama also states
that in a few video's and podcasts. The best hull shapes for
wing foil boards are designed to break the surface tension of
the water when pumping i.e. they release easily. Dave Kalama
does this by making hulls that are shaped like race kitefoil
boards. Jimmy Lewis achieves this by having a slight 'V' in the
hull (hence the name of his SUP foil board, the 'Flying V'.
Jimmy also swears that although a tail kick is ok, having a
hydrostep (see pic) where the tail kick starts is essential to
break the surface tension, while still allowing the benefits of
the tail kick when pumping. You've got an interesting point
about whether a curved rocker would allow you to ditch the tail
kick. The little I know about board or hull design is limited to
surfboards, and that the more curved the rocker line is, the
less the wetted surface area is, so the slower it picks up speed
- the trade off in surfing is that helps performance when
planing. God knows how it would affect the performance of a foil
board as all the rules seem to be completely different! Granted
we don't need to get up to planing speed, but the quicker we can
LIFT the board off the water the better. Not sure if a curved
rocker would do that. Would be very interesting to find out!
#Post#: 139--------------------------------------------------
Re: What board to build?
DIR By: stenninger
Date: April 3, 2020, 2:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
that more or less is learning by doing. But it is not the first
board I've made.
There are 2 things:
1. one needs a lot of time
2. it is not cheep at all
@slyde, what are you using as top gloss? Creating a nice finish
needs a lot of sanding in my case.
Epoxy as top layer always creates fisheyes and pinholes.
Even if I clean it with acton or if I do it wet on wet.
#Post#: 140--------------------------------------------------
Re: What board to build?
DIR By: Slyde
Date: April 3, 2020, 2:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Nothing special. After laminating add a coat of epoxy and
microballoons then sand that back with an orbital sander till
smooth. Then wet hand sand at 180 grit. Then paint with epoxy
undercoat 1 or 2 layers and wet sand by hand to 400 grit. Then
paint one or 2 coats epoxy top coat with roller, laying off with
a high quality brush. surface preparation is the key. But a 5'
board is so small its a pretty simple job. Each coat is maybe
50-100mls total and most gets sanded off so adds very little
weight and much more durable than a wet sanded undercoat finish
that seems to be so trendy.
#Post#: 141--------------------------------------------------
Re: What board to build?
DIR By: Slyde
Date: April 3, 2020, 2:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Dommo link ---
>
> Hi Stenninger and Slyde
>
> Both your project boards look awesome. Can I ask how you got
the skills to make your own boards to such a high quality. Is
this something you taught yourself?
>
--- End Quote ---
when I was 16 I built my first few windsurfers because I couldnt
afford to buy. That just took courage and practicality. No
Internet in those days to guide you. Then in my university
holidays I worked in surfboard factories. Swaylocks.com has a
ton of information about how to do it and theres a ton of
videos. Some of the best are from Carbon Art. You can design a
board with free software now and print out a template to cut a
blank by hand or with a hotwire. Some places will even CNC cut
your blank for you. You dont have to do the full composite
sandwich thing. Simple glass/carbon over foam still works, but
you really do need to use a vacuum bag technique with all the
contours of a foilboard...its too hard to hand laminate and get
a good bond. Happy to give advice if you need it.
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