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       #Post#: 11989--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Is an Individual Capable of Running a State if he Doesn't
       Know the Obvious?
   DIR By: ecsmith2
       Date: February 26, 2014, 8:40 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: trollslayer link ---
       >
       > Looking at the last part of your post I find myself asking,
       how can somebody be "pro life" yet seem to want to use drones in
       foreign countries without impunity?
       > How can somebody be "pro life" yet not think twice when it
       comes to shooting a burglar that threatens themselves and their
       family.  It just doesn't make sense.  ;)
       >
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       ;)
       Yes, there is quite a bit of inconsistency in positions that are
       just discussed with in labels, like "pro-life" and "pro-choice".
       Pro-choice is the easier one, actually, as they just want to
       let the individual choose themselves, could be either choice.
       But the pro-life label is a bit misleading.  Those that use it
       think they have the shield of God protecting them, that
       fertilization of an egg is God ordained and cannot be
       interrupted for anything, otherwise immorality strikes.  The
       Catholic Church is the poster child for this position.  Yet they
       don't like to talk about a small detail in their position, they
       would prefer to have everyone believe there should be no human
       intervention in stopping a pregnancy.  but that is not true.  If
       there is concern for the mother's health, and there is
       completely no regard for the fetus, treatment of the mother is
       completely moral even if the fetus is aborted.  So even the
       Catholic Church believes there can be human intervention in a
       pregnant woman's helath that results in the moral aborting of a
       fetus.  The disagreement the Church has with society in general
       is the extent of human intervention in the medical treatment of
       individuals.
       And self proclaimed conservatives are usually pointed out as
       being pro-life, but they are also like to believe they have the
       control over their life and the lives of their family.  I
       understand you are familiar with Archie and the Meathead.  I
       believe it would be Archie that would express the message to one
       of his children that "I brought you into this world, and I can
       take you out!".  I believe, within the discussion of abortion on
       demand, that this would make conservative Archie a liberal, in
       the minds of some here, instead.
       ;)
       #Post#: 11993--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Is an Individual Capable of Running a State if he Doesn't
       Know the Obvious?
   DIR By: Sheila
       Date: February 26, 2014, 10:35 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: trollslayer link ---
       >
       > Looking at the last part of your post I find myself asking,
       how can somebody be "pro life" yet seem to want to use drones in
       foreign countries without impunity?
       > How can somebody be "pro life" yet not think twice when it
       comes to shooting a burglar that threatens themselves and their
       family.  It just doesn't make sense.  ;)
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Your examples fit the question as well. The term "pro life" has
       been one of the slickest marketing tools for a cause
       (anti-abortion) I have seen in my lifetime...so far.
       #Post#: 11997--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Is an Individual Capable of Running a State if he Doesn't
       Know the Obvious?
   DIR By: ecsmith2
       Date: February 26, 2014, 12:17 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       If pro-life people really believe in the sanctity of God's
       actions on earth through "allowing" an egg to be fertilized,
       shouldn't they also stand back and allow God's actions to be the
       only ones involved when we are sick?  Isn't a surgeon repairing
       a heart valve altering God's creation?  Shouldn't pro-life
       people go the route of the parents that only prayed for their
       diabetic daughter, and forego medical treatment, relying on the
       infinite wisdom of God to prevail?
       #Post#: 11999--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Is an Individual Capable of Running a State if he Doesn't
       Know the Obvious?
   DIR By: trollslayer
       Date: February 26, 2014, 3:00 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: ecsmith2 link ---
       >
       > If pro-life people really believe in the sanctity of God's
       actions on earth through "allowing" an egg to be fertilized,
       shouldn't they also stand back and allow God's actions to be the
       only ones involved when we are sick?  Isn't a surgeon repairing
       a heart valve altering God's creation?  Shouldn't pro-life
       people go the route of the parents that only prayed for their
       diabetic daughter, and forego medical treatment, relying on the
       infinite wisdom of God to prevail?
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       So I take it you think a surgeons or a doctors skills aren't God
       given.  This would explain why you ended your post with the
       uneducated comment about not seeking medical attention.  So I'm
       curious, would you drive your car with faulty brakes knowing you
       may kill somebody or yourself or would you take the car to a
       mechanic?  Please, let's not get into a long drawn out post
       about protocol.
       #Post#: 12001--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Is an Individual Capable of Running a State if he Doesn't
       Know the Obvious?
   DIR By: ecsmith2
       Date: February 26, 2014, 6:39 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: trollslayer link ---
       >
       > So I take it you think a surgeons or a doctors skills aren't
       God given.  This would explain why you ended your post with the
       uneducated comment about not seeking medical attention.  So I'm
       curious, would you drive your car with faulty brakes knowing you
       may kill somebody or yourself or would you take the car to a
       mechanic?  Please, let's not get into a long drawn out post
       about protocol.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Those same God-given skills are used for all ethical medical
       procedures, including abortions.
       I do think their skills are God given.  It is the pro-life
       people that don't want the God given skills used in certain
       circumstances.
       It is not an uneducated comment at the end, though you keep
       trying to insult me, and I cannot return the favor.  Could you
       stop the insults and just stick to the discussion?  To be
       consistent, people that don't want medical people using their
       God given skills in one circumstance, because they believe that
       circumstance has occurred by the grace of God, why is not the
       rupturing of an appendix not happening by the grace of God?
       These people believe all things happen with the grace of God,
       until they don't want to believe it.
       No, I wouldn't drive a vehicle with faulty equipment, that could
       be fixed by someone with the skills to do it.  I would trust God
       to control things as the devoutly religious believe He does.  I
       believe He trusts us to do the right thing in this world, and we
       answer to Him for the decisions we make.
       That would be the problem with abortion, some people seem to
       think they have to make the decision for everyone.  I don't
       believe that.  There religious belief has them thinking abortion
       is immoral, so they should not have abortions.  They are not
       immoral for living in a world where other people do not think
       abortion is immoral and abortions occur.
       And protocols never entered the discussion until you added them.
       A little passive-aggressive on your part, don't you think?   ;D
       Perhaps you could forget the insults and the past that has no
       part of the discussion and just continue on the topic, I do find
       it a bit interesting, the use of religious belief on one set of
       people to control others with it in the law.
       #Post#: 12002--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Is an Individual Capable of Running a State if he Doesn't
       Know the Obvious?
   DIR By: wmd102
       Date: February 26, 2014, 7:17 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Sheila link ---
       >
       > Would someone please, other than Atouk, define "liberal".
       > Would someone, other than Atouk, define "conservative".
       >
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Liberals are generous with other people's assets! :)
       Conservatives like to do things way they always did things
       BECAUSE THOSE WAYS WORK! :o
       --- Quote from: trollslayer link ---
       >
       > Looking at the last part of your post I find myself asking,
       how can somebody be "pro life" yet seem to want to use drones in
       foreign countries without impunity?
       > How can somebody be "pro life" yet not think twice when it
       comes to shooting a burglar that threatens themselves and their
       family.  It just doesn't make sense.  ;)
       --- End Quote ---
       As for pro life shooting a burglar, if you don't shoot him he
       just might kill you! :o
       
       #Post#: 12003--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Is an Individual Capable of Running a State if he Doesn't
       Know the Obvious?
   DIR By: ecsmith2
       Date: February 26, 2014, 7:22 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: wmd102 link ---
       >
       > Liberals are generous with other people's assets! :)
       > Conservatives like to do things way they always did things
       BECAUSE THOSE WAYS WORK! :o
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       This describes everyone in Congress.  Not very useful.
       #Post#: 12005--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Is an Individual Capable of Running a State if he Doesn't
       Know the Obvious?
   DIR By: ecsmith2
       Date: February 26, 2014, 7:34 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       You should watch "Questioning Darwin" on HBO.  Lots of
       interviews with Creationist Christians with the same religious
       thinking that infects the opposition to evolution teaching, the
       opposition to abortion and contraception, and supports their
       thinking their religious beliefs are under attack.  For the life
       of me, I don't see anyone taking away any beliefs from them.
       #Post#: 12009--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Is an Individual Capable of Running a State if he Doesn't
       Know the Obvious?
   DIR By: rapids_60
       Date: February 26, 2014, 10:05 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Sheila link ---
       >
       > Would someone, anyone, please explain how a person can be
       "pro-life" and also be ok with engaging in war, or military
       conflicts...whatever the label for such death and destruction
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       You can't be, with some exceptions.  I don't think being
       pro-life is inconsistent with using force as a last resort to
       protect other life,  killing Nazis to end the Holocaust for
       example.
       But you cannot be pro-life yet be OK with killing for
       convenience or for financial reasons.  Death penalty for
       example, when life in prison is a viable alternative.
       #Post#: 12014--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Is an Individual Capable of Running a State if he Doesn't
       Know the Obvious?
   DIR By: trollslayer
       Date: February 26, 2014, 10:37 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: wmd102 link ---
       >
       > Liberals are generous with other people's assets! :)
       > Conservatives like to do things way they always did things
       BECAUSE THOSE WAYS WORK! :oAs for pro life shooting a burglar,
       if you don't shoot him he just might kill you! :o
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       That was the point I was trying to make.
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