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#Post#: 20550--------------------------------------------------
Re: Two killed, live on TV
By: trollslayer Date: August 28, 2015, 11:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=p2_d link=topic=1482.msg20547#msg20547
date=1440767875]
I know that in the industry I work that when you see a problem
that appears over and over again, like the police shootings, we
begin to look at how are we training the people. We can all
point fingers at the "BAD COPS" I guess maybe I think they are
not bad cops just people who are not properly trained for the
job they have. Its the same problem we have with education. We
compare ourselves to other countries, but that can be an
oversimplification. Other countries value teachers more and pay
them better and make sure they are properly trained and that the
training is ongoing. In this country teachers like the Police
are not respected, and poorly trained and have little ongoing
training that is really significant. Look at the scandal in
Chicago with the principal training system. It was given to a
group who had ties to the CEO and offered little in the way of
actual training while costing that city 10s of millions of
dollars. I hear all the time parents who have little education
beyond high school complaining about how their teacher is wrong,
well more often my experience is these kids are brats and a
burden on the class room and the parents should actually listen
to the teacher about why their star is not shinning. The same
goes with the police. Their is no respect for them. Look at
Michael Brown evidence proves he reached into the squad car. The
incident I mentioned in Chicago the guys ran from the police
because the new protocol is not to pursue. Just last week there
was another pedestrian killed by a person who had been pulled
over by the police and when the officer approached the car he
took off. But we should blame the police. They are ill equipped
and poorly trained for the work they have to face in certain
areas. Look at the number of police killed on duty and look at
the ethnicity of who killed them. Again the chances of a cop
being killed by 4 60 year old white guys in a Lincoln town car
that was speeding verses 4 20 year old person of color, well the
facts point out which is more dangerous. The fact that these
officers put their lives on the line every day, its easy for
people to arm chair quarterback how they are doing a bad job,
but I wonder how any of us would do in that same position.
[/quote]
Great post. You also look at the amount of police shootings
compared to the amount of officers out there and you'll find the
percentage is miniscule.
#Post#: 20551--------------------------------------------------
Re: Two killed, live on TV
By: Sheila Date: August 28, 2015, 2:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=p2_d link=topic=1482.msg20547#msg20547
date=1440767875]
I know that in the industry I work that when you see a problem
that appears over and over again, like the police shootings, we
begin to look at how are we training the people. We can all
point fingers at the "BAD COPS" I guess maybe I think they are
not bad cops just people who are not properly trained for the
job they have. Its the same problem we have with education. We
compare ourselves to other countries, but that can be an
oversimplification. Other countries value teachers more and pay
them better and make sure they are properly trained and that the
training is ongoing. In this country teachers like the Police
are not respected, and poorly trained and have little ongoing
training that is really significant. Look at the scandal in
Chicago with the principal training system. It was given to a
group who had ties to the CEO and offered little in the way of
actual training while costing that city 10s of millions of
dollars. I hear all the time parents who have little education
beyond high school complaining about how their teacher is wrong,
well more often my experience is these kids are brats and a
burden on the class room and the parents should actually listen
to the teacher about why their star is not shinning. The same
goes with the police. Their is no respect for them. Look at
Michael Brown evidence proves he reached into the squad car. The
incident I mentioned in Chicago the guys ran from the police
because the new protocol is not to pursue. Just last week there
was another pedestrian killed by a person who had been pulled
over by the police and when the officer approached the car he
took off. But we should blame the police. They are ill equipped
and poorly trained for the work they have to face in certain
areas. Look at the number of police killed on duty and look at
the ethnicity of who killed them. Again the chances of a cop
being killed by 4 60 year old white guys in a Lincoln town car
that was speeding verses 4 20 year old person of color, well the
facts point out which is more dangerous. The fact that these
officers put their lives on the line every day, its easy for
people to arm chair quarterback how they are doing a bad job,
but I wonder how any of us would do in that same position.
[/quote]
First you say that teachers are poorly trained. Then you say
parents should listen to teachers regarding their kid's
behavior. Care to explain what you mean? And why do you think
teachers are poorly trained?
#Post#: 20552--------------------------------------------------
Re: Two killed, live on TV
By: p2_d Date: August 28, 2015, 3:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
First you say that teachers are poorly trained. Then you say
parents should listen to teachers regarding their kid's
behavior. Care to explain what you mean? And why do you think
teachers are poorly trained?
Maybe because even though they are poorly trained they still
have more knowledge of education and how best to teach children
than that parent.
I would say I used the wrong word when I said poorly trained. I
think for the average student they are trained, just as the
police are trained for the average situation. Too often such as
teachers and officers working in the inner city they have not
received, for lack of a better word battle training. I had a
friend who worked in an inner city school which contained one
white child. For the safety of that kid he was put in a special
ed room. My friend would cry over the way this child was
tormented there. I realize it is anecdotal but I hear stories
like this all the time from my friends in education.
#Post#: 20553--------------------------------------------------
Re: Two killed, live on TV
By: Sheila Date: August 28, 2015, 4:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
OK. Thanks for your reply. I see what you mean. In a different
vein, it was 1993 that a parent said to me, "At home, we're
trying to support the values that Noah is learning in school."
It took me by surprise. Not that the values being taught in
school were so bad. But rather, it used to be the role of the
teacher (in general) to reinforce the values (healthy ones)
being taught at home.
Comments like the one of that parent, who didn't reside in a
low-income neighborhood...but instead an upper middle class area
and who was "always" on the go offer a glimpse to a larger
problem of today. It was later the same year her kid said to me,
"Oh...we all have drugs. It's just that the kids in my group
have the more expensive/better ones."
#Post#: 20554--------------------------------------------------
Re: Two killed, live on TV
By: rapids_60 Date: August 28, 2015, 4:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=p2_d link=topic=1482.msg20547#msg20547
date=1440767875]
I know that in the industry I work that when you see a problem
that appears over and over again, like the police shootings, we
begin to look at how are we training the people. We can all
point fingers at the "BAD COPS" I guess maybe I think they are
not bad cops just people who are not properly trained for the
job they have.
[/quote]
That's a good point. There appear to be two problems with
police training over the last decade,
1) Lots of retired military become LE.
That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but military training and
police training are entirely different. Military
confrontations are truly Us vs Them. Enemy or Not. In LE work
the general population is NOT the enemy.
2) Police are now taught to approach situations with an in your
face attitude. They believe pushing their opponent off guard
enhances their safety.
That fast and hard adrenaline pumping attitude doesn't do much
for rational decision making by either party.
Seems many/most of these incidents are the younger or newer
guys, the cops trained back in the "community policing" days
don't seem to have these issues.
#Post#: 20555--------------------------------------------------
Re: Two killed, live on TV
By: trollslayer Date: August 28, 2015, 7:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=rapids_60 link=topic=1482.msg20554#msg20554
date=1440798168]
That's a good point. There appear to be two problems with
police training over the last decade,
1) Lots of retired military become LE.
That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but military training and
police training are entirely different. Military
confrontations are truly Us vs Them. Enemy or Not. In LE work
the general population is NOT the enemy.
[/quote]
MP confrontations are not an "us vs. them". The MP's police the
American soldiers, not the enemy.
#Post#: 20556--------------------------------------------------
Re: Two killed, live on TV
By: rapids_60 Date: August 28, 2015, 7:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=trollslayer link=topic=1482.msg20546#msg20546
date=1440765275]
No guns in prisons? Wrong! Tower guards are armed in many
prions and will use them a "necessary". Prisoners know this.
[/quote]
You haven't answered how prison guards manage to disarm threats
without shooting them first. Or the last time you heard of a
prison shooting.
I'll answer both for you:
1) They don't go anywhere alone. They don't need weapons
because they outnumber the threat.
One wonders if this is one reason we had fewer police shootings
back in the day cops rode in pairs. Alone is dangerous.
2) Prison perimeter guards firing their weapons is so rare, most
prisons count the time between incidents in decades. Wisconsin
has not had such a shooting in over 30 years.
BTW Tower guards are armed, sure. While we still have them.
At the end of the year most Wisconsin prison towers will be
unmanned. Can't hire enough staff.
#Post#: 20557--------------------------------------------------
Re: Two killed, live on TV
By: rapids_60 Date: August 28, 2015, 7:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=trollslayer link=topic=1482.msg20555#msg20555
date=1440809082]
MP confrontations are not an "us vs. them". The MP's police the
American soldiers, not the enemy.
[/quote]
I'm not talking about MP's. I'm talking about military. MP's
may have an easier transition.
#Post#: 20558--------------------------------------------------
Re: Two killed, live on TV
By: rapids_60 Date: August 28, 2015, 8:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=trollslayer link=topic=1482.msg20550#msg20550
date=1440779331]
Great post. You also look at the amount of police shootings
compared to the amount of officers out there and you'll find the
percentage is miniscule.
[/quote]
If that were relevant, then there is no need to worry about
officers being killed on duty either. 126 last year. Out of
1.1 million cops, that's a "minuscule" 0.01%.
#Post#: 20559--------------------------------------------------
Re: Two killed, live on TV
By: trollslayer Date: August 28, 2015, 8:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]You haven't answered how prison guards manage to disarm
threats without shooting them first. Or the last time you heard
of a prison shooting.
I'll answer both for you:
1) They don't go anywhere alone. They don't need weapons
because they outnumber the threat. [/quote]
A laughable comment. Guards are frequently outnumbered. In the
yard, on the block, in the laundry, in the kitchen, in HSU, etc.
You yourself said there's a shortage, then turn around and say
guards go no where where they're out numbered. A real
contradiction in terms. Guards are outnumbered the second they
go through the first gate.
[quote]Prison perimeter guards firing their weapons is so rare,
most prisons count the time between incidents in decades.
Wisconsin has not had such a shooting in over 30 years. [/quote]
Most prisons. :D Ok. Most police departments (in WI since
you've chosen to limit the discussion) can say the same thing.
It's kinda weird how the parameters of a discussion can change.
I thought we were talking nationwide, you seem to want to
confine your end of the discussion to only WI.
You can not compare the job of prison guards to that of a police
officer. Two different cultures, two totally different
conversations. You may as well start comparing life in Russia
to life in the US. Pretty much the same comparison
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