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#Post#: 20016--------------------------------------------------
Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!
By: 2fat Date: July 25, 2015, 6:09 am
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[quote author=Snickers link=topic=1449.msg20012#msg20012
date=1437773295]
"So should we judge historical events by the standards in place
back then, or those in place now?"
So then why is that flag from over 150 years ago be judged today
by some thin skinned activists.
It is part of our nation's history. It was only a battle flag .
It represented nothing other then the units that men belonged
to. it wasn't until later when the KKK hijacked it that it
became a perceived symbol of racism.
Why is it that a handful of racist morons dictate what a flag
that represents hundreds of thousands of past war veterans
stands for? And not the memory of those veterans?
And my comparisons are valid.
Things were different back then. Values were different.
Priorities were different. It was a very different world.
[/quote]
that flag is from a more modern time--it had all but disappeared
until Harry Truman started the march to desegregation---it
became a standard for Jim Crow laws across the south--it didn't
fly in Ms until the issue of blacks enrolling at Ole Miss became
the news-----or maybe you are too young to remember when George
Wallace flew it atop the Alabama state capitol in the early
'60's again in the face of forced integration----it is nothing
but the symbol of racial oppression---and if people want to
remember the CSA let them fly one of the official flags
#Post#: 20017--------------------------------------------------
Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!
By: p2_d Date: July 25, 2015, 6:34 am
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For thousands of years the gammadion cross did not carry the
stigma it currently does and was used as a decorative element
and in some religions was considered a symbol of luck. Not so
much any more
Tell me why don't they fly the actual flag of the CSA and
instead the battle flag that has been used not only by the KKK
as a symbol of hate but also by Strom Thurmond in the late 40s
when he formed his seggragationist party and again by George
Wallace when he flew it over the Alabama Capitol to protest
civil rights advances. It did not gain popularity until after
these groups dragged it out from the dust.
Besides the fact that the main reason for the civil war was over
slavery?
#Post#: 20018--------------------------------------------------
Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!
By: Snickers Date: July 25, 2015, 9:37 am
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[quote author=p2_d link=topic=1449.msg20017#msg20017
date=1437824054]
For thousands of years the gammadion cross did not carry the
stigma it currently does and was used as a decorative element
and in some religions was considered a symbol of luck. Not so
much any more
Tell me why don't they fly the actual flag of the CSA and
instead the battle flag that has been used not only by the KKK
as a symbol of hate but also by Strom Thurmond in the late 40s
when he formed his seggragationist party and again by George
Wallace when he flew it over the Alabama Capitol to protest
civil rights advances. It did not gain popularity until after
these groups dragged it out from the dust.
Besides the fact that the main reason for the civil war was over
slavery?
[/quote]
Just because that handful of dirt bags high jacked it used it
for their own selfish reason it is now to be seen as only their
symbol of hate?
It was not created for that purpose. It was for identification
purposes in battle.
It is a historic part of our history.
The KKK and other white supremacist groups also flew the
American flag at their rallies. Should that also be vilified?
#Post#: 20019--------------------------------------------------
Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!
By: p2_d Date: July 25, 2015, 9:53 am
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If they are REALLY proud of the confederacy why not fly the flag
of the confederacy?
Instead they choose a flag used by hate groups and separatists (
or in the case of Thurmond not in the bed)?
#Post#: 20020--------------------------------------------------
Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!
By: 12cows Date: July 25, 2015, 10:17 am
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[quote author=p2_d link=topic=1449.msg20019#msg20019
date=1437836034]
If they are REALLY proud of the confederacy why not fly the flag
of the confederacy?
[/quote]
I had to look this up. I never knew there was such a flag. Your
point makes sense to me.
#Post#: 20021--------------------------------------------------
Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!
By: Snickers Date: July 25, 2015, 10:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=p2_d link=topic=1449.msg20019#msg20019
date=1437836034]
If they are REALLY proud of the confederacy why not fly the flag
of the confederacy?
Instead they choose a flag used by hate groups and separatists (
or in the case of Thurmond not in the bed)?
[/quote]
I suppose a person could.
But why let one group of people dictate to everyone else what
they can and can not do?
Why allow one group of people to dictate to everyone else where
something can be displayed or can not be displayed?
Everyone one has different views on what that flag stands for.
And no one groups views over rule any one else's.
That battle flag is no different then our own Stars and Strips.
Both were used by the KKK and other white supremacist groups.
Both were flown in battle by rebels. Once in the American
Revolutionary War and once in the Civil war.
My personal opinion on this issue...
If a persons feelings are hurt or they are offended.. Tough
$hit.
That's their own perceived problem. They are the only ones that
are responsible for their own feelings.
Their feelings are no more important then anyone else's.
#Post#: 20023--------------------------------------------------
Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!
By: rapids_60 Date: July 25, 2015, 11:13 pm
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[quote author=Snickers link=topic=1449.msg20021#msg20021
date=1437839104]
I suppose a person could.
But why let one group of people dictate to everyone else what
they can and can not do?
[/quote]
They don't get to dictate to everyone else. They get to
dictate to GOVERNMENT what it can and cannot do. In this case,
government cannot fly a flag that has come to symbolize racism.
[quote]
Everyone one has different views on what that flag stands for.
And no one groups views over rule any one else's.
[/quote]
Well...no. It is part of the Confederacy which was formed to
preserve slavery. That's a historical fact.
The flag was also flown by several state governments during
their fight for segregation. That also is a historical fact.
Certain groups can pretend that isn't the history of the flag,
but we have a word for them: Wrong.
[quote]
That battle flag is no different then our own Stars and Strips.
[/quote]
It is very different. One flag represents a group formed
specifically to oppress blacks. The other does not, even though
certain groups may have flown it while doing so. Their racist
cause is not the reason the flag (and the country) were created.
Which state government flew the Stars and Stripes to symbolize
it's fight for segregation? (none)
[quote]
My personal opinion on this issue...
If a persons feelings are hurt or they are offended.. Tough
$hit.
That's their own perceived problem. They are the only ones that
are responsible for their own feelings.
[/quote]
So if a certain state flies a Nazi flag over say...it's
courthouses, they are in the right. Anyone offended is in the
wrong and has no right to complain. Particularly American Jews
who'd best just STFU?
Remember we aren't talking about actions of private individuals
here, but state government.
[quote]
Their feelings are no more important then anyone else's.
[/quote]
And you are correct. Except, once again, when we are talking
about official actions of a government.
Government is not allowed to cater to the wishes of one group of
Americans while telling another "tough $hit" without good cause.
Preserving a symbol that state itself has used in the past to
oppose racial equality is not good cause.
We have equal protection laws that address that sort of thing.
#Post#: 20025--------------------------------------------------
Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!
By: rapids_60 Date: July 26, 2015, 12:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=2fat link=topic=1449.msg20016#msg20016
date=1437822578]
that flag is from a more modern time--it had all but disappeared
until Harry Truman started the march to desegregation---it
became a standard for Jim Crow laws across the south--it didn't
fly in Ms until the issue of blacks enrolling at Ole Miss became
the news-----or maybe you are too young to remember when George
Wallace flew it atop the Alabama state capitol in the early
'60's again in the face of forced integration----it is nothing
but the symbol of racial oppression---and if people want to
remember the CSA let them fly one of the official flags
[/quote]
Well now you got me reading about the history (and
reincarnation) of that flag. It's more interesting than I knew.
That particular flag was never used to commemorate civil war
veterans outside a very small group in Virginia.
In fact it was forgotten about for decades until Strom Thurmond
adopted it in 1948 as the symbol for his "States Rights"
political party, formed specifically to protest civil rights
laws in the south.
The flag thus became a symbol for segregation and remained so
for decades.
Ironically Thurmond's son Paul, a Republican So Carolina State
Senator said the following a few weeks ago about the flag, after
voting for it's removal:
“Our ancestors were literally fighting to keep human beings as
slaves, and to continue the unimaginable acts that occur when
someone is held against their will,” . “I am not proud of this
heritage.”
Georgia hoisted it over the capitol in 1954 to protest Brown
v. Board of Education.
Wallace raised it over Alabama in 1961 in support of
segregation, then South Carolina followed later that year, not
in 1962 as often reported.
SC made it's reason for the flag official in 1962, " for the
100'th anniversary of the Civil war", except the flag has been
in place for a year already.
The author of the bill that made the flag official gave thanks
to the KKK and Redshirts for "redeeming the South", followed by
Strom Thurmond on how the constitution did not guarantee blacks
anything, all of it cheered on by a segregated all-white crowd.
Each state eventually integrated, all but South Carolina quietly
retired the flag.
Texas recently rejected the flag (any Confederate flag) as an
option for license plates, stating:“a significant portion of the
public associate the confederate flag with organizations
advocating expressions of hate directed toward people or
groups.”
The state was sued over it's rejection by Sons of the
Confederacy, the Supreme Court eventually agreed with Texas'
reasoning, that it should not officially endorse a flag that a
significant number find oppressive.
So we have a flag that was used as a battle flag for 4 years,
then fell into obscurity, eventually being re purposed as a
symbol of the fight to retain segregation, a purpose it served
for at least 20 years.
#Post#: 20026--------------------------------------------------
Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!
By: 2fat Date: July 26, 2015, 7:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=rapids_60 link=topic=1449.msg20025#msg20025
date=143788
So we have a flag that was used as a battle flag for 4 years,
then fell into obscurity, eventually being re purposed as a
symbol of the fight to retain segregation, a purpose it served
for at least 20 years.
[/quote]
and time for it to return to obscurity!
#Post#: 20027--------------------------------------------------
Re: ENOUGH!!!!!!
By: p2_d Date: July 26, 2015, 3:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=2fat link=topic=1449.msg20026#msg20026
date=1437913650]
[quote author=rapids_60 link=topic=1449.msg20025#msg20025
date=143788
So we have a flag that was used as a battle flag for 4 years,
then fell into obscurity, eventually being re purposed as a
symbol of the fight to retain segregation, a purpose it served
for at least 20 years.
and time for it to return to obscurity!
[/quote]
+1
I have no problem with an individual flying the flag same with a
swastika. The state doing it........ That is a problem. I
think as Rapids said most people are not famiar with the history
of that flag, I would say many who fly it are. I know that
until I did some independNt research and read more of the
history of it I did not find it objectionable. Now after
reading as much as I have my view of it is different.
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