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#Post#: 14223--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: trollslayer Date: June 23, 2014, 10:54 pm
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[quote author=rapids_60 link=topic=1094.msg14221#msg14221
date=1403581078]
What am I not explaining? There is no cost increase. There
*would* be if they actually installed the coal scrubbers, but
they are not. Instead they are converting to gas, which is
pushing costs down. There is no "meantime". As the NG plants
come on line the coal plants are retired.
Conventional coal costs $95 per megawatt-hour on average.
Obama's regulations would increase that to $116
Natural gas costs $64 per megawatt-hour.
For comparison, nuke $96, Geothermal $47, Biomass $106, Wind
$80, Hydro $84
(EIA, 2013)
[/quote]
No, the older plants are not simply going to convert. They are
going to shut down The newer plants aren't going to switch to
NG, they're going to continue to burn coal at the higher rate
like the WPSC plant in Weston. Many aren't going to spend the
money to convert because Obama is only temporary. Most will
burn coal at a higher rate until he's gone and the EPA regs are
eliminated.
In the mean time, conversion to NG doesn't happen over night
and isn't cost free. There is cost involved and will be passed
on to the consumer.
Less plants up and running. Some running at a higher cost being
passed on to consumers and hundreds of thousands of coal jobs
lost. The consumer is the big loser here in the long run. I
mean cmon, look at even the slightest problem in the mideast,
gas goes up .10 a gallon. This isn't any different.
The EPA even admits the price of electricity and natural gas
will increase.
HTML http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/02/epa-admits-climate-rule-will-raise-electricity-prices/
HTML http://americaswatchtower.com/2014/06/02/the-epa-admits-its-new-global-warming-rules-will-cause-energy-prices-to-rise/
HTML https://www.uschamber.com/blog/epa-mandated-carbon-capture-technology-will-mean-higher-electricity-costs-says-obama-official
#Post#: 14224--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: Mr.steve Date: June 23, 2014, 11:43 pm
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[quote] there is no ash or other toxic waste to deal with.
[/quote]
I gotta disagree with you on this comment. There are many
toxins present when you open up a boiler( for regular maint and
repair) regardless of what material or gas you are burning. The
two most common are asbestos and arsenic.
#Post#: 14225--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: rapids_60 Date: June 24, 2014, 12:21 am
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[quote author=trollslayer link=topic=1094.msg14223#msg14223
date=1403582081]
they're going to continue to burn coal at the higher rate like
the WPSC plant in Weston.
[/quote]
Hey, good news. They need $50 million to expand their coal ash
landfill over in Knowlton. That'll be on your bill and the
expansion is only good for 15 years' capacity. Then they'll be
back for more.
Maybe they should dump the junk in Minnesota instead? That's
where the power is going.
Dump the mercury there too. Weston is the 4'th largest emitter
of Mercury in the state.
Oh, and 4th largest emitter of Nitrogen Oxides, 5th largest
source of particulates, 6th largest source of sulfur dioxides.
And that's a "clean coal" plant with newer scrubbers and
better emission controls than most, competing with antique paper
mills and chemical plants for top polluter honors.
What fun it must be trying to breathe near an older coal plant.
#Post#: 14226--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: rapids_60 Date: June 24, 2014, 1:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Now here's two questions for you.
Several heavily populated Eastern states (like New York,
Connecticut, etc) have air quality problems partially caused by
Coal plants further south.
In fact 8 Northeastern governors had petitioned the EPA to do
something about the coal pollution originating in the
Appalachian region and drifting into their states.
1) At what point do the rights of neighboring states and their
residents matter?
2) Assuming the 11,000 premature deaths and $90 billion in
healthcare costs (both annual) the Feds estimate Coal plants
cause are even somewhat accurate, why shouldn't we add those
costs to the cost of coal generation?
Would coal still be cheap if users paid the full costs of it's
use?
#Post#: 14231--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: trollslayer Date: June 24, 2014, 7:40 am
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[quote author=rapids_60 link=topic=1094.msg14226#msg14226
date=1403591080]
Now here's two questions for you.
Several heavily populated Eastern states (like New York,
Connecticut, etc) have air quality problems partially caused by
Coal plants further south.
In fact 8 Northeastern governors had petitioned the EPA to do
something about the coal pollution originating in the
Appalachian region and drifting into their states.
1) At what point do the rights of neighboring states and their
residents matter?
2) Assuming the 11,000 premature deaths and $90 billion in
healthcare costs (both annual) the Feds estimate Coal plants
cause are even somewhat accurate, why shouldn't we add those
costs to the cost of coal generation?
Would coal still be cheap if users paid the full costs of it's
use?
[/quote]
1 Good question, no answer
2 Your question is based on an assumption
My point was simply this. The elimination of coal and coal
fired plants is going to hurt, many many people. Those who work
in the coal industry. There are going to be many many more
Cities and towns like Detroit. The increases in gas and
electricity rates are going to harm the economy and most
severely the poor.
#Post#: 14232--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: Notso Date: June 24, 2014, 8:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=trollslayer link=topic=1094.msg14231#msg14231
date=1403613626]
1 Good question, no answer
2 Your question is based on an assumption
My point was simply this. The elimination of coal and coal
fired plants is going to hurt, many many people. Those who work
in the coal industry. There are going to be many many more
Cities and towns like Detroit. The increases in gas and
electricity rates are going to harm the economy and most
severely the poor.
[/quote]
Elimination of coal burning plants does cause jobs to be lost,
but as a nation we have tripled our coal exports in the last
decade or so, only thing keeping that down is our exploding
natural gas exporters are the competitors. Eventually the
increase will replenish many or most of those jobs or might even
create more, it's a temporary thing.
#Post#: 14233--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: trollslayer Date: June 24, 2014, 9:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Ahhh. Good point. The coal is going to be burned anyway. So
while our economy suffers under the higher prices, we send the
cheap dirty coal overseas for them to burn and to maintain their
economies and does essentially nothing to decrease carbon
emissions. The goal of the Obama administration. Makes sense.
;)
#Post#: 14237--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: trollslayer Date: June 24, 2014, 9:34 am
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[quote author=Linda link=topic=1094.msg14236#msg14236
date=1403619917]
I have to take exception to this comment, Trolly. The president
was not born rich, did not grow up rich, and indeed worked as a
lawyer before entering the political world. And he didn't get
elected on his daddy's name.
HTML http://millercenter.org/president/obama/essays/biography/2
[/quote]
That's ok, we can agree to disagree. The one main fact missing
from this biography is any kind of employment history. I'm sure
he had it pretty rough growing up in Hawaii. I'm sure he had a
job somewhere down the line. After all, how did he pay for the
drugs that he "dabbled in"?
#Post#: 14238--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: trollslayer Date: June 24, 2014, 12:31 pm
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[quote author=rapids_60 link=topic=1094.msg14225#msg14225
date=1403587317]
Dump the mercury there too. Weston is the 4'th largest emitter
of Mercury in the state.
Oh, and 4th largest emitter of Nitrogen Oxides, 5th largest
source of particulates, 6th largest source of sulfur dioxides.
And that's a "clean coal" plant with newer scrubbers and
better emission controls than most, competing with antique paper
mills and chemical plants for top polluter honors.
What fun it must be trying to breathe near an older coal plant.
[/quote]
That's only partially correct. The Weston Power plant put it's
first unit online in 1954, #2 in 1960, #3 in 1981 and the new
one that has the scrubbers and the latest technology came online
in 2008. I live about two miles away from the plant a the crow
flies and to tell you the truth I find the paper mill just down
the road to be more pungent. I've noticed no change in the air
quality with the addition of the biofuel plant.
#Post#: 14239--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: rapids_60 Date: June 24, 2014, 3:19 pm
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[quote author=trollslayer link=topic=1094.msg14233#msg14233
date=1403619174]
we send the cheap dirty coal overseas for them to burn and to
maintain their economies and does essentially nothing to
decrease carbon emissions.
[/quote]
Good point. We should probably stop exporting it too.
You know what's funny? China is also installing record numbers
of solar plants and is the world leader in PV production.
Their coal addiction will end one day.
Meanwhile we're sitting on our hands, putting time and effort
into fighting for the obsolete. Can't we be the world leader on
this stuff for once?
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