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#Post#: 14204--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: trollslayer Date: June 23, 2014, 4:40 pm
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It's getting harder and harder for the Democrats to say they are
the party for the poor. Raise minimum wage and a half million
people lose their jobs. Is doing nothing to promote energy
independence leaving us at the mercy of expensive oil from
overseas. Allowing the EPA to raise standards on emissions on
coal plants throwing people out of work and causing the price of
electricity to substantially rise. And on and on it goes...
#Post#: 14205--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: trollslayer Date: June 23, 2014, 5:01 pm
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Kinda funny, Kerry travels to Iraq and scolds them for not
controlling their borders!
#Post#: 14208--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: rapids_60 Date: June 23, 2014, 6:57 pm
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[quote author=trollslayer link=topic=1094.msg14204#msg14204
date=1403559643]
It's getting harder and harder for the Democrats to say they are
the party for the poor. Raise minimum wage and a half million
people lose their jobs. Is doing nothing to promote energy
independence leaving us at the mercy of expensive oil from
overseas. Allowing the EPA to raise standards on emissions on
coal plants throwing people out of work and causing the price of
electricity to substantially rise. And on and on it goes...
[/quote]
Oh, where to start, lol.
The dems aren't the party of the Poor. The poor basically
aren't represented. The dems are the party of The Government
Program, but do little to help the poor long-term.
Can you point to massive job losses in the states or cities that
already have raised their minimum wages? Not theoretical
hypotheses, but actual job losses?
The real road to energy independence is by finding alternatives
to finite fuel resources like Oil.
How's the Republican's track record on that? Pretty good?
Last time a Republican touched a solar panel was when Reagan
ripped them off the White House roof. :D
We are exporting gasoline and diesel and have a surplus of
natural gas. Exporting gasoline and diesel keeps the prices up.
Natural gas, not as simple to export, has plummeted.
It isn't Obama that's holding back more production, it's the
desire to control supply to maintain pricing.
Independence does not matter to multinational, global oil
companies. They are less loyal to the USA than Benedict Arnold.
The low cost of Natural gas is doing more to kill coal than
anything else. The conversions have roughly a 7 year payback and
it's actually lowering the cost of electricity in some areas.
That isn't a bad thing. Getting rid of filthy fuels that poison
the air, water and ground like Coal isn't a bad thing.
As to the lost coal jobs- well, the buggy whip manufacturers
and ice delivery wagons eventually threw people out of work too.
That doesn't mean the automobile was a mistake or that the
refrigerator was a liberal plot. It just means progress has
happened.
#Post#: 14213--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: trollslayer Date: June 23, 2014, 9:20 pm
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[quote]Can you point to massive job losses in the states or
cities that already have raised their minimum wages? Not
theoretical hypotheses, but actual job losses? [/quote]
The 500,000 jobs lost isn't a number I made up. It's a CBO
number.
[quote]The real road to energy independence is by finding
alternatives to finite fuel resources like Oil. [/quote]
Neither side has a stellar record for finding alternatives but
raising the price of ga and oil isn't the answer either. I seem
to remember you saying that.
[quote]It isn't Obama that's holding back more production, it's
the desire to control supply to maintain pricing[/quote]
But it is. His policies and the policies of some democratic
governors. Look at the decrease of permits. Look at the fight
against fracking. 6 years to study the keystone pipeline?
Really?
[quote]The low cost of Natural gas is doing more to kill coal
than anything else.[/quote]
Nope, look at the increased regulation being put into place by
the EPA. This is going to shut many plants down and make
building new coal burning plants cost prohibitive. Even members
of his own party from caol burning states are very very nervous.
[quote]As to the lost coal jobs- well, the buggy whip
manufacturers and ice delivery wagons eventually threw people
out of work too. [/quote]
Closing down coal burning plants is progress?? I guess many
global warming alarmists probably think so. Yes those you
mentioned above were thrown out of work. Probably didn't happen
during the longest "recovery on record. Shut down many of these
coal mines today and you're going to end up with many many more
towns and counties that will resemble Detroit. Just like
Detroit coal is the largest, or only employer in many of these
areas. There is nothing else.
#Post#: 14215--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: rapids_60 Date: June 23, 2014, 9:49 pm
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[quote author=trollslayer link=topic=1094.msg14213#msg14213
date=1403576412]
Shut down many of these coal mines today and you're going to
end up with many many more towns and counties that will resemble
Detroit. Just like Detroit coal is the largest, or only
employer in many of these areas. There is nothing else.
[/quote]
That's not exactly unprecedented. We have ghost towns from gold
mining, up north from iron and copper mining, coal may very well
be next. It unfortunately happens.
The fact is, "clean coal" is more expensive to build and to
operate than natural gas, and is still dirtier than natural gas.
That's before Obama changed anything. He may hasten coal's
demise, but it's a dead man walking either way. How long would
you like to keep it on life support in order to retain the
jobs?
The Keystone is an export pipeline. Unlike other pipelines,
this one does not supply domestic customers.
The US gains nothing other than cleanup expenses and ruined
water tables if it is damaged and a small handful (literally)
of long-term jobs. Which may come at the expense of rail and
trucking jobs that currently move the product.
It may also increase domestic oil prices as Canada currently has
an over supply of tar sand oil and selling it to us at a
discount.
What's the upside?
[quote]Neither side has a stellar record for finding
alternatives but raising the price of ga and oil isn't the
answer either. I seem to remember you saying that.[/quote]
Yep. Poor Obama, really wants oil and gas prices to rise, but
he has little to no control over it. N. Gas prices are at their
lowest point in history, lol.
I'd prefer the feds subsidize green energy until it becomes
self-supporting. Like we did with fracking technology. That
was a money loser for many years. But it's paying off now,
right down to an industrial renaissance thanks to low energy
prices.
#Post#: 14216--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: trollslayer Date: June 23, 2014, 10:03 pm
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[quote]How long would you like to keep it on life support in
order to retain the jobs? [/quote]
Until there's a backup plan. Right now there isn't one. Cutting
out one industry and strictly regulating the oil industry isn't
the way to do it. Currently, just shutting down coal fired
plant isn't the answer. Look up the data. However, lets not
forget, in the past decade the US has decreased it's carbon
emission by about 17% yet carbon emission across the globe have
increased more than that. The US is going to suffer being the
only one cutting carbon emissions while the India's and the
China's continue to use coal at record rates. As long a we
increase the cost of doing business in the US, business is going
to look for cheaper places to do business. Check out the
relatively minor impact on the environment by closing coal plant
in the article below.
HTML http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/06/08/coal-plant-retirements-barely-cut-carbon-emissions/10008553/
#Post#: 14217--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: rapids_60 Date: June 23, 2014, 10:12 pm
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[quote author=trollslayer link=topic=1094.msg14216#msg14216
date=1403579003]
As long a we increase the cost of doing business in the US,
business is going to look for cheaper places to do business.
[/quote]
Then you'd ought to be entirely in favor of replacing Coal
plants with N. Gas. It costs less.
That reduction in energy costs is exactly why manufacturing is
starting to return to the US.
We seem to have a disconnect here, lol. Right now it is cheaper
to burn gas than coal, even without any new regulations.
It is cheaper to transport, there is no ash or other toxic
waste to deal with. Even including the cost of the conversion,
it's still cheaper. Keeping coal is the more costly option
regardless of Obama.
EIA Annual Energy Outlook for 2014, (won't let me cut and
paste- PDF)
Coal has also been losing market share to natural gas for
electric power generation in recent years. Few coal-fired power
plants are under construction, and there is little expectation
that any new coal plants will be built even without new
regulations
The ones that are "shut down" will be replaced with N. Gas fired
plants. Coal is a dead industry and it's replacement is
already here.
Can't do much about China and India, other than encourage them
to find cleaner energy sources. Which we can't really do if
we're still burning coal too.
#Post#: 14219--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: trollslayer Date: June 23, 2014, 10:25 pm
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[quote author=rapids_60 link=topic=1094.msg14217#msg14217
date=1403579520]
Then you'd ought to be entirely in favor of replacing Coal
plants with N. Gas. It costs less. The reduction in energy
costs is exactly why manufacturing is starting to return to the
US.
EIA Annual Energy Outlook for 2014, (won't let me cut and
paste- PDF)
Coal has also been losing market share to natural gas for
electric power generation in recent years. Few coal-fired power
plants are under construction, and there is little expectation
that any new coal plants will be built even without new
regulations
The ones that are "shut down" will be replaced with N. Gas fired
plants.
Can't do much about China and India, other than encourage them
to find cleaner energy sources. Which we can't really do if
we're still burning coal too.
[/quote]
At what costs to businesses and the economy in the meantime?
The people that will suffer the most from this are the poor, the
point I originally made.
#Post#: 14221--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: rapids_60 Date: June 23, 2014, 10:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=trollslayer link=topic=1094.msg14219#msg14219
date=1403580340]
At what costs to businesses and the economy in the meantime?
The people that will suffer the most from this are the poor, the
point I originally made.
[/quote]
What am I not explaining? There is no cost increase. There
*would* be if they actually installed the coal scrubbers, but
they are not. Instead they are converting to gas, which is
pushing costs down. There is no "meantime". As the NG plants
come on line the coal plants are retired.
Conventional coal costs $95 per megawatt-hour on average.
Obama's regulations would increase that to $116
Natural gas costs $64 per megawatt-hour.
For comparison, nuke $96, Geothermal $47, Biomass $106, Wind
$80, Hydro $84
(EIA, 2013)
#Post#: 14222--------------------------------------------------
Re: Well, there goes Iraq.
By: trollslayer Date: June 23, 2014, 10:44 pm
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So what we have is the multi millionaire Obama, who hasn't
worked a day in his life, who has seen income disparity increase
exponentially under his administration. Hillary who has shown
time and again over the past weeks how out of touch she really
is average American. Heinz Kerry who is so rich that the poor
are just a minor blip on his radar. Harry Reid who people
wonder how he made so much money on his congressional salary.
Also multi millionaire Nancy Pelosi, worth $100 million who
thinks the do nothing congressional members don't make enough.
Democrats, the party of the poor.
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