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#Post#: 243--------------------------------------------------
Postulate Failure Chart
DIR By: mjh
Date: December 27, 2017, 9:15 am
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On the Postulate Failure Chart, I can see that the Conditions
for the complementary legs references are Overt/Overwhelm or
Motivator/Overwhelm and it is the Game condition for the
opposing legs.
I appear to be misunderstanding this - but in the book where
Dennis is talking about the personality characteristics he
states:
Ref: Mustn't Be Known - "He got into this leg by being
overwhelmed by a Mustn’t know while being in the Must be known
leg"
So 'He' could have started in either 8A or 7B - which are both
Game conditions and yet the result of this when Mustn't Know
overwhelmed Must Be Known, I would have said was a
Motivator/Overwhelm with Rejection in 'Prevented from being
known'. (8A moving to 6B / 7B moving to 7A)
If Must Be Known had overwhelmed Mustn't Know - then this would
be an Infliction of "Forcing to Know", and be the
Overt/Overwhelm of Forced to be Known - however, there is no
result point on the chart for this as there are no spaces where
two Must Be Known beings exist - also, per the material to
become "Must Be Known" one is overwhelmed by a "Must Be Known" -
so this may not be there as at this point the being has taken on
the valence of the overwhelmer...?
My query(s) then are around the nomenclature and structure of
the chart (Game / Game) and (Over / Overwhelm) and (Motivator /
Overwhelm) what am I missing?
On reading and on consideration complementary flows exist at 1A,
2B, 3A, 4B, 5A, 6B, 7A, 8B - all of which show this Overwhelm
condition yet Dennis states: "Complementary postulates enhance
life; conflicting postulates detract from it."
Also, as an aside - is there any information which looks at the
twinned aspects: say two 'Must Be Knowns' where they are both
flowing at each other and one would 'overflow' the other so they
become Mustn't Know. I assume that this may would only be an
issue with two outflowing states so the other would be two
Mustn't Know's together.
#Post#: 244--------------------------------------------------
Re: Postulate Failure Chart
DIR By: David Cooke
Date: December 29, 2017, 5:02 am
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Greetings, mjh
It might be easier to understand the postulate failure chart if
you keep in mind the differences between this and the games
matrix.
First Dennis presents the games matrix with four legs. This
describes the time track that an individual lives through as
they pursue games with a given effect. It proceeds from Must Be
Known to Must Not Be Known, to Must Know and finally to Must Not
Know. An individual can only go in one direction through this
sequence because they start in Leg 1 (Must Be Known) and each
leg in turn becomes un-occupiable (by the person's own
consideration, that is) as that postulate goes into failure. One
ends in Leg 4 (Must Not Know), the low-toned end of the line for
playing with that effect. The only way forward from there is to
start a new cycle with a new effect.
Further on he introduces the postulate failure chart with its
sixteen levels from 1A to 8B. These are instructions for therapy
at Level 5 of TROM, and it goes in the opposite direction, from
late to early on the time track. As he wrote, "The Time Track
runs from 8 to 1. You work from 1 to 8, around and around."
Someone running Level 5 starts at 1A which is the overwhelmed
state at the very end of Leg 4. At 1A their 'Must Not
Know'postulate has been defeated and they submit to knowing
whatever effect their opponent was trying to make them know.
5A to 6B correspond to Leg 2, and 7A to 8B correspond to Leg 1.
So in the case of a person getting into Leg 2 "by being
overwhelmed by a Mustn’t know while being in the Must be known
leg", he's overwhelmed by the opponent's 'Must Not Know' SD
postulate at 7A and finds himself changing his own SD postulate
to an enforced Must Not Be Known. Then when he moves into Leg 2
at level 6B he has adopted Must Not Be Known as his new SD
postulate.
The complementary postulates at 1A, 2B, 3A, 4B, 5A, 6B, 7A, 8B
are enforced complementaries. Check the origin and receipt
columns to see who is enforcing what on whom. For example, at 1A
Self apparently 'wants' to know the effect, but only because
Others have rammed the effect down Self's throat. In running the
postulate failure chart we're only seeking to run out games
conditions and overwhelms, not the times when we happily had
complementary postulates with others. Just as in scientology we
were trying to run out aberrative incidents, not free track.
Anyway, I hope this is a bit helpful and hasn't created more
problems. I didn't find the postulate failure chart easy to
understand until I'd completed the earlier levels of TROM. When
I finished Level 4, which removes charge from the whole subject
of overts and motivators, the postulate failure chart started to
make sense. Then on Level 5, understanding of what the levels
mean in practical terms keeps changing as you run through them
cycle after cycle. These changes are the cognitions on each of
the 1A, 1B etc levels within 5. I've only recently started on
Level 5, and expect to have many, many iterations of the chart
before it's flat.
Your aside about twinned aspects is an interesting question too.
It leads into the matter of competition, something that Dennis
did not find it necessary to discuss. On the other hand, games
theory in the biological sciences is all about competition:
predators competing for a limited number of prey, birds
competing for a limited number of nest sites etc. And games
theorists in biology use the mathematics that John von Neumann
developed in the 1940s to find optimum competitive strategies in
business, poker and war. I've been trying to write a blog post
explaining competition in terms of TROM, and if I ever get it
finished I'll post a link here. Briefly, competition (a.k.a
rivalry) is an example of a junior game within a senior
encompassing game, when there is relative scarcity on the other
side. Dennis didn't need to address it directly because it
collapses when the main game is resolved.
I'm inclined to agree with you that in the basic games package
the only real conflicts would occur between paired outflows. An
image comes to mind of two rival jazz trumpeters trying to
out-play each other. In other game packages such as Eat there
can be competing inflows, for example two plants in the same
small pot competing to suck up a limited supply of nutrients.
#Post#: 253--------------------------------------------------
Re: Postulate Failure Chart
DIR By: mjh
Date: December 30, 2017, 9:42 am
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Hi David - much appreciating your response, it has helped out a
great deal! - This new knowledge however, has raised another
level of problem!
I can now see that each of the even-numbered lines are all where
Self is in a causative position and commits an overt per their
current 'Leg'.
In part B of all of the odd-numbered lines is where Self is now
at the effect of the overwhelm and will become overwhelmed, thus
moving into the next 'Leg'.
All of this makes sense and if I remove the odd-numbered lines
with A from the chart, all is good in my thinking!
So, there is still something missing that I am not fully
comprehending. If this chart is a progression through the legs,
then the A sections will be alternative ways of moving to the
next leg when at effect of an overwhelm. It is plain for me to
see that these are all of the nature: 'enforced complementaries'
as you described them.
Here is a quick diagram so far of what I am understanding (the S
/ O represents Self / Other):
[attachimg=1]
Attempting to understand the 4 'mystery' states my issues are:
They appear to be in the wrong legs:-
3A is Must Not Know which is Leg 4,
1A is Must Know which is Leg 3,
7A is Must Not Be Known which is Leg 2 and
5A is Must Be Known which is Leg 1.
The resulting Leg in which Self moves to per the information I
have, is shown on the image - 1A and 3A move to Must Be Known,
5A and 7A move to Must Know.
On the basis that there could be alternative ways of getting to
the next leg, I am able to allocate 3A alongside with 1B and 7A
alongside 5B - these then are two methods of moving from MNBK to
MK and from MNK to MBK.
[attachimg=2]
1A and 5A could be allocated alongside 3B and 7B respectively,
this does however mess up the flow to the next Leg as these
complementaries do not fit the Leg pattern, they force a valence
shift missing out a leg. Or does 1A when MBK overwhelms MK,
cause MK to become MNK? and in 5A when MK overwhelms MBK, cause
MBK to become MNBK? I know Dennis states in his descriptions
that MBK and MK both cause a valence shift, is this only when
the prior leg which fits their PD has failed and thus the being
has to become the valence. In this position then I can see them
fitting in - however I am stuck with them in different spaces to
the original chart - 1A and 3A are switched as is 5A and 7A
[attachimg=3]
I am sure there is something key which I am missing - hopefully,
my description above offers some detail to helping me locate it!
Thank you.
#Post#: 254--------------------------------------------------
Re: Postulate Failure Chart
DIR By: David Cooke
Date: December 30, 2017, 6:59 pm
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Wow, this is subtle. A bit too subtle for me!
Yes, self is at cause (origin) in levels 2A, 2B, 4A, 4B etc. On
the time track, a person starts out at cause in each leg in
turn, and ends up at effect.
1A (the bottom of leg 4) looks superficially like 4B (the top of
leg 3) because they're both MK facing a MBK. The difference is
that at 4B Self is winning, getting the knowledge they want, but
by the time they've got down to 1A they're unwillingly knowing
something they don't want.
To quote: "We now need to take up the sense, or meaning, of the
word ‘must’ on the chart. With one exception the meaning is ‘got
to’; it's a striving to make the postulate effective. The only
exception is at the overwhelm levels. At the point of overwhelm
‘must’ means to the being overwhelmed ‘cannot help but’; it
echoes the failure of his postulate in the game."
But it's not much use trying to figure all this out if you're
not yet running on Level Five of TROM. (A bit like wanting to
know what cognitions you'll get on a process before staring to
run it.) Please get each of the preceding Levels flattened, in
sequence, before worrying about the details of Level Five.
#Post#: 255--------------------------------------------------
Re: Postulate Failure Chart
DIR By: mjh
Date: December 31, 2017, 4:55 am
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Thanks David,
Figuring out the chart is a process in itself, so yes I
understand that it should be presented later in the materials
after the other areas are flat.
I'll leave it for now and run out the early levels first.
Many thanks for your input - have a great New Year all the best
for 2018!
MJH
#Post#: 397--------------------------------------------------
Re: Postulate Failure Chart
DIR By: guest53
Date: February 26, 2019, 3:37 pm
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use the game of chess moves as a way to get some mass on the
subject.
prevented preventing forcing forced etc etc all 16 levels of L5
#Post#: 446--------------------------------------------------
Re: Postulate Failure Chart
DIR By: guest53
Date: April 2, 2019, 10:17 pm
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level 5 is the universe acting on self . Its a sequence that we
are at the effect of . Its a sequence that and we experience is
ways that go undetected .
Forcing to be known can be as simple as farting in an elevator
Preventing can be as simple as pressing the close door button as
someone gets closer to boarding the elevator . Then pretending
like you are pressing the button frantically trying to keep the
door open and thinking come on door close close close before he
gets to it .
And you love the way it feels too. Ah hahahahah
we are constantly going round and round the PFFC in real life in
real time .
We are doing L5 , or at least I am , as a single spiritual being
. NOT a seperated soul or spirit.
When I do l5 Im both at the origin and receipt
Its just a matter of changing our POV from self to others or
both self and others and self AS others
I never see what im time breaking either , other than solid
mental mass that is very tangible
It makes my head shake left right a few times depending on how
many sequences im vanishing on L5
Its good stuff > most of the time , in day to day life Im time
breaking as a normal daily function . Eating sleeping or using
the bathroom
Found a real juicy set a few weeks ago . Put a big smile on my
face becasue I instantly knew I was about to start raiating
energy out from my body 360 degrees spherical
OH what a feeling !!!!!! eh ?
#Post#: 470--------------------------------------------------
Re: Postulate Failure Chart
DIR By: TromFan
Date: June 12, 2019, 12:15 am
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I did NOT understand the postulate failure chart until I started
running level five on myself. Not completely, that is. Toward
the end of "TROM for Non-Scientologists" (found in the Read TROM
here section of this forum) there is specifics on how this
works.
I see that this is a pretty old posting, so I am going to assume
you made it to level five by now. If so, how is it going?
#Post#: 473--------------------------------------------------
Re: Postulate Failure Chart
DIR By: Colleen
Date: June 12, 2019, 7:53 am
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--- Quote from: guest53 link ---
>
> level 5 is the universe acting on self . Its a sequence that
we are at the effect of . Its a sequence that and we experience
is ways that go undetected .
>
> Forcing to be known can be as simple as farting in an elevator
> Preventing can be as simple as pressing the close door button
as someone gets closer to boarding the elevator . Then
pretending like you are pressing the button frantically trying
to keep the door open and thinking come on door close close
close before he gets to it .
>
> And you love the way it feels too. Ah hahahahah
>
> we are constantly going round and round the PFFC in real life
in real time .
>
> We are doing L5 , or at least I am , as a single spiritual
being . NOT a seperated soul or spirit.
>
> When I do l5 Im both at the origin and receipt
>
> Its just a matter of changing our POV from self to others or
both self and others and self AS others
>
> I never see what im time breaking either , other than solid
mental mass that is very tangible
>
> It makes my head shake left right a few times depending on how
many sequences im vanishing on L5
>
> Its good stuff > most of the time , in day to day life Im time
breaking as a normal daily function . Eating sleeping or using
the bathroom
>
> Found a real juicy set a few weeks ago . Put a big smile on my
face becasue I instantly knew I was about to start raiating
energy out from my body 360 degrees spherical
>
> OH what a feeling !!!!!! eh ?
>
--- End Quote ---
Haha, the elevator scene - your knowledge of human behavior as
exposed by TROM would make you a great comedian. Some people
need help to come up to awareness of the sensation aspect of a
goal, especially those habitual secret non-life goals .... and,
yes, I have wanted to be alone in the elevator :-)
#Post#: 479--------------------------------------------------
Re: Postulate Failure Chart
DIR By: mjh
Date: June 12, 2019, 1:28 pm
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TromFan - I haven't got to five yet, TBH I am still floundering
around at the bottom looking for case change.
Maybe your query is the impetus to reapply myself here.
:)
All the best
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