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#Post#: 1739--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is your favorite
By: indigo_dave Date: December 17, 2017, 10:18 am
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Another view:
I agree with Bucky that there is not a right and wrong. There
are conventions developed over time that our minds and "mind's
ears" have assimilated and have come to sound "good" and
"correct". This varies in different music cultures. A given
music theory has codified the conventions. But like spoken
language and cultural norms etc. , music evolves over time (I'm
not sure if "evolves" is an acceptable term in the current
reactionary authoritarian political regime).
I'm schooled in music theory. I have also studied harmony
formally in the last couple of years. I still spend 30-40
minutes most days writing 4 part harmony exercises at the piano.
I will add that quote that "talking about music is like dancing
about architecture" - any point discussed about music really
needs to be heard rather than just talked about.
Someone who says music theory is a science is misguided or
misinformed IMO. But to talk about dissonance in Japanese music
- needs audible examples. I had a music theory teacher who made
a hugely important point once as an offhand remark many years
ago. Basically he said, "by the way, composers came up with
the music they created, then theorists came along afterwards
and created theories to explain it". Acoustics and the overtone
series however IS science. The music we humans came invented is
based on the science of acoustics but the conventions various
cultures came up with is cultural.
There are intervals that are considered "consonant" - Octaves
(8ths) , unisons (1sts ?), 4ths and 5ths. Dissonant intervals
- 2nds and 7ths and 3rds (to some extent - 3rds sound consonant
to me). This has a basis is acoustics and the mathematical
ratios of the intervals. Pythagorus (sp?) is reported to have
taken a vibrating string, and when dividing it in half (2 equal
lengths) the 2 halves vibrated at 2 times (or 2/1) the
frequency AND the pitch was an octave higher. Dividing the
string into 3rds, made the divisions vibrate a perfect 5th
higher than the original pitch AND the ratio of the vibrating
strings was 3/2. The higher up the overtone series the pitch
is, the more dissonant the interval is to the original pitch.
This may sound like gibberish. The only reason I can remember it
is that I've read this explanation a handful of times through my
adult life. Hopefully I haven't mangled a detail here or there.
The documentary "The Music Instinct" on YouTube has fascinating
insights. In this movie they illustrate little tiny hairs in
our inner ears, called cilia. There are different length cilia
- and the length of a given cilia (tiny hair) determines the
ability of the "mind's ear" to perceive pitches. The takeaway
from this is that the music we human animals came up with, is
based in physics, science and acoustics - not just random
chance.
Music in different cultures developed over time, and evolved to
different extents. When you get into Western music, i.e. Western
European music, music became a schooled "art form". Dissonance
in (let's say) Bach's times generally had to be justified with
certain treatment. As time passed the listener's ears became
more and more comfortable with hearing these dissonances, and
over time these "certain treatments" became less "necessary".
Beethoven used dissonances more wrecklessly, being a great
innovator. Later Debussy came along and then Stravinsky with
even freer . The 20th century was the age of emancipation of
dissonance and emancipation of rhythmic syncopation.
The most prominent dissonant interval is the augmented 4th. Fast
forwarding to the 20th century, the augmented 4th is pretty much
everyplace in blues and jazz. Jazz music borrowed and stole
from the harmony of modern classical composers, which is part of
a healthy process as far as I'm concerned.
Having said all this, the piano is different than a guitar in
the topography involving those damn black keys. So certain keys
sit well under the fingers. I might say for this reason, I
currently seem to prefer F major. The sound of given keys
being different than each other, is lost on me.
#Post#: 1740--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is your favorite
By: Bucky Date: December 17, 2017, 10:43 am
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This is from Akiko Yano's first album, which featured Little
Feat as her backing band. She goes on a pretty dissonant vocal
solo during the song's climax.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhpzQtHd0YE
Sakamoto is one of the top composers in Japan, and his first
album is full of dissonant moments. I couldn't find a clip of
"Island of Woods," but "Grasshoppers" features synth that
oscillates everywhere and heavily contrasts against the piano.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfdthII1hZg
I also find the biwa skirts the line well.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eddo9EfH4RU
#Post#: 1741--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is your favorite
By: indigo_dave Date: December 17, 2017, 12:36 pm
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Excellent Bucky, posting examples. I need to find an example or
two of dissonance I was referring to. I gave a cursory partial
listen to Ex1. It sounded western progressive jazz based
overall. Of course there can be elements from Japanese music.
Can you pinpoint an area (I love YouTube for this) where the
singer is doing some sore of (I'll call) Asian based singing ?
That could be scales or modes used. Maybe some quavering in the
voice (I'm thinking of that thing you hear a koto do, bending
the note). Maybe something else. I know that pentatonic scales
seem to be almost universal - seem to have popped up in many
musics from around the world. That makes me think that the
pentatonic scale fits in with our makeup. Those cilia I was
talking about. And the physics of the overtone series.
Need to check out Ex2.
Ex3 sounded (cursory quick partial listen) conventionally
Japanese to my ears.
I have no knowledge of Japanese music.
#Post#: 1744--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is your favorite
By: AJ Date: December 17, 2017, 5:59 pm
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I love this place.
Just got a lesson in Harmony and Theory from Dave, and got
exposed to music I'd never heard before from Bucky.
Kinda freaked me out that Little Feat, one of my favorite bands
ever...Backed up an artist I'd never heard before.
Continue gentlemen, please.
#Post#: 1745--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is your favorite
By: Bucky Date: December 17, 2017, 6:50 pm
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Akiko is one of my favorites. She and Little Feat simply admired
each other, and they volunteered to help her record her debut
LP. She never had Western success. Her ex-husband, Ryuichi
Sakamoto was in Yellow Magic Orchestra, and recently did the
soundtrack for the Revenant film.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO5ykH18-TM
She went from Jazz to insane J-Pop.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRSm1osRINo
#Post#: 1746--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is your favorite
By: AJ Date: December 17, 2017, 9:35 pm
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Found myself liking "Rose Garden". Has an infectious beat. To
say there is a lot going on in the background would be an
understatement.
The beat cuts right through. I suppose it would be fun to know
what she is singing...But I like the way she is singing it.
#Post#: 1747--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is your favorite
By: Bucky Date: December 17, 2017, 9:54 pm
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You don’t want to know. She had a serious song about ramen
noodles.
#Post#: 1748--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is your favorite
By: AJ Date: December 17, 2017, 9:57 pm
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[quote author=Bucky link=topic=166.msg1747#msg1747
date=1513569260]
You don’t want to know. She had a serious song about ramen
noodles.
[/quote]
I live with a Ramen Devotee. Were there a Graven Image/God-like
dogma for Ramen, I'm sure he'd be deep in study for monkhood.
Drives me nuts. I always have fresh fruit around, fresh
vegetables, I cook, but if I don't get home in time he's
slurping noodles.
#Post#: 1750--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is your favorite
By: Bucky Date: December 18, 2017, 6:13 am
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I love ramen, but my body does not.
#Post#: 1751--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is your favorite
By: indigo_dave Date: December 18, 2017, 7:55 am
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I listened to most of Ex1 and Ex2. They sound mostly Western
based to me. The singer in Ex1 does some vocal soloing without
words. Sometimes it sounds like she's doing maybe some quavering
to make (maybe) some melodic quarter tones like in music from
India.
Maybe they'd be considered a type of fusion I guess.
Ex4 and Ex5 in a later post, sounded mostly like EDM with vocals
laid on top. Only did a drop the cursor listen a few times.
Didn't like them. I'm not a big fan of the constant repetition
in automated electronic music. My thinking is that they're
using hi-tech means to create simplistic repetitive music. But
of course opinions are like assholes, right ?
I will try to list a couple of dissonant examples.
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