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#Post#: 235--------------------------------------------------
Was Jesus always God ?
By: Edwin. Date: March 4, 2013, 3:17 pm
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Let me first of all make it clear that I have no problem with
the "Deity of Christ". My understanding is that in eternity,
Jesus, the second person of the Trinity is God, always has been
God, and always will be God. Never at any time in eternity did
Jesus, the Son of God, divest Himself of His Deity.
However, what we are now about to consider is not His existence
in eternity, but His human life of some 33+ years here on earth
some 2,000 years ago.
Did Jesus as a human being claim to be God ?
It would appear so from,
Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working
until now, and I have been working."
Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him,
because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God
was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
Jhn 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish,
and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than
all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30 I and the Father are one."
At John Ch 14 v 9, Jesus said "Whoever has seen me has seen the
Father.
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you,
before Abraham was, I AM."
I believe that here Jesus identifies Himself the speaker in the
verse below.
ESV - Exd 3:14 - God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM."* And he
said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to
you.'"
Footnote:
* Or I AM WHAT I AM, or I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE
But then what about,
John 5:30. “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and
my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will
of him who sent me. ESV.
1. How can God possibly say, "I can do nothing on my own".
2. How can God possibly say, "As I hear, I judge".. Who does God
take instruction from?
3. Since when did God not seek His own will?
4. Who sent God?
Your help would be most appreciated.
Edwin.
#Post#: 244--------------------------------------------------
Re: Was Jesus always God ?
By: alphaomega Date: March 5, 2013, 11:36 am
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[quote author=Edwin. link=topic=63.msg235#msg235
date=1362431831]
Let me first of all make it clear that I have no problem with
the "Deity of Christ". My understanding is that in eternity,
Jesus, the second person of the Trinity is God, always has been
God, and always will be God. Never at any time in eternity did
Jesus, the Son of God, divest Himself of His Deity.
However, what we are now about to consider is not His existence
in eternity, but His human life of some 33+ years here on earth
some 2,000 years ago.
Did Jesus as a human being claim to be God ?
It would appear so from,
Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working
until now, and I have been working."
Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him,
because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God
was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
Jhn 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish,
and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than
all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30 I and the Father are one."
At John Ch 14 v 9, Jesus said "Whoever has seen me has seen the
Father.
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you,
before Abraham was, I AM."
I believe that here Jesus identifies Himself the speaker in the
verse below.
ESV - Exd 3:14 - God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM."* And he
said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to
you.'"
Footnote:
* Or I AM WHAT I AM, or I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE
But then what about,
John 5:30. “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and
my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will
of him who sent me. ESV.
1. How can God possibly say, "I can do nothing on my own".
2. How can God possibly say, "As I hear, I judge".. Who does God
take instruction from?
3. Since when did God not seek His own will?
4. Who sent God?
Your help would be most appreciated.
Edwin.
[/quote]
WAS JESUS ALWAYS GOD ?
In my giving out the
gospel message the group that has the issue most at hand is that
of the Muslim faith. I did not say most correct ; i said most at
hand. For in my experience the point they bring out very early
in the conversation is ....................
Jesus did not split apart from God.
WHY DO I SAY this to be the issue most at hand?
Because THIS IS THE
BIBLE STORY! Comparing Genesis one with John one we see a time
of creation of all things. The account OF John tells us the WORD
was\is JESUS as well as indirectly shows us a division of time.
1- things created when THE WORD was GOD
2- things created when the WORD was with GOD
THE HEAVENS AND THE ANGELS ARE CREATED IN THE
TIME PERIOD WHEN THE WORD WAS GOD
This is testified to as we see Jesus who created all things is
unknown by SATAN as he says
IF YOU ARE THE SON OF GOD
NOTE----- DEMONS who are created from the hybrid union of the
fallen angels and women of mankind say
we know [b]you are THE SON OF GOD for they are created after
the foundations of the world in a time when JESUS was
- slain
-separated
-split apart
-[b]WITH GOD
this story is pictured in the water
sequence of genesis one in three steps
1- water ;HE GODHEAD
surrounded and encompassed by the Holy Spirit
2- the poured out water; JESUS
THE DRINK OFFERING
THE SLAIN not killed but SEPARATED
THAT WHICH BECOMES SEPARATED or distinctly in a
different place
the WAS that now is WITH or alongside of
THE ACTION OF THIS WATER (is the action of JESUS
CREATING the foundations of the world)
for
by the illustration land is only seen as the poured out water
moves away
3- the water that stays next to the land THE HOLY SPIRIT
NEXT TO MAN
A FORCE THAT CAN ACT UPON MAN
BUT NOT IN MAN
UNTIL MAN RE-ENTERS THE WATER (BAPTISM)
THE OLD MAN (LAND)
HEARING THE MESSAGE THROUGH THE SAND ( THE
DESCENDENTS OF ABRAHAM)
ENTER THE WATER TO FIND THE OYSTER
DYING TO THEMSELVES THEY ENTER THE OYSTER
THE NEW CREATION COMES UP OUT OF THE WATER
AS THE PEARL
THAT WHICH THE TRAVELER (JESUS)
WILL RETURN AND BRING TO THE FATHERS HOUSE
IN DUE SEASON (END OF THE AGE)
THE REASON OF THE VERSES
which seem to say
1- he is God
2- he is not God THE FATHER but under GOD THE FATHER
is that of when he is speaking as
1- the son of god
2- as the son of man
he is both ; and in speaking to us in the gospels
he is usually speaking to us as the son of man
yet he never fails to point out he and he alone has seen the
father
and revering the john one story he is saying he was with God
and at a time WAS GOD before the slain\ separation and creating
the foundations of the world
he continually speaks of this oneness with God
WATER ( THE GODHEAD ) POURED INTO DIFFERENT CONTAINERS IS STILL
WATER (GOD)
**** DO NOT THINK THIS IS MY POINT OF VIEW ONLY
for it is the very point Muslims bring out to say why Jesus is
not the son of GOD
as they say GOD does not separate and this has been said by
them long before I-myself came into the world.
just like questions tells the person asked indirectly what the
questioner knows
so can the argument against something reveal what the true issue
is.
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