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#Post#: 157--------------------------------------------------
original sin
By: alphaomega Date: February 23, 2013, 4:58 pm
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What is it ?
What did it do?
How did we get it ?
What must be done to fix it ?
#Post#: 159--------------------------------------------------
Re: original sin
By: Amadeus Date: February 23, 2013, 6:27 pm
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[font=courier]I probably don't know the definitions provided by
mainstream churches, but they may certainly included in some
cases an inherited sin, the sin of our first natural parents
(Adam & Eve of Genesis). If by that it is meant that when we
were born to out mothers we already had the one sin, I disagree.
What I believe happened is the wrong door was opened and the
right one was closed. Jesus made it possible for that to be
changed by His sacrifice and by Himself becoming for us the
right Door.
Because the wrong door was open from the one moment we began to
absorb anything and think and decide anything, we learned from
the things within that open wrong door: the tree of good and
evil. We learned to be ashamed. We learned to sin because that
was now the natural way of men. Men were not born with sin, but
they were born with the way to sin open before them and quite
attrractive. He was born with something that pulled him or drew
in the direction of sin:
"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the
lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father,
but is of the world." I John 2:16
Those mentioned lusts and pride are not in themselves sin. They
are, however, whenever they are followed, the pathways to sin.
(Until we get rid of them, we will find ourselves repeatedly
sinning after we have received the gift of Holy Ghost... because
we continue to walk along those pathways.) We were born with
these attractions in our innocence and we developed them with
the help of those around us who influenced us. If our natural
parents were living as devils, we probably moved along the road
to sin a bit faster. If we had parents who loved God in a great
measure, then the following verse could have come into play,
depending on well those parents were teaching us:
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old,
he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6
I would not say that we were born already being sinners, but we
were certainly born to sin. We had from the start access to the
wrong tree and we have continuously eaten fruit from it. Jesus
has given us a way out of that inclination to death. He have
given us access anew to that other better tree... if we will
learn to eat from it rather than the other. We now have the same
choices that the first Adam and Eve had insofar as which tree to
eat from... After their disobedience, of course, they lost
access to the Tree of LIfe. Losing access is not something we
want to contemplate. It happened to them and it can certainly
happen to us.... [/font]
#Post#: 163--------------------------------------------------
Re: original sin
By: alphaomega Date: February 24, 2013, 4:35 pm
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[quote author=Amadeus link=topic=56.msg159#msg159
date=1361665644]
[font=courier][size=14pt]I probably don't know the definitions
provided by mainstream churches, but they may certainly included
in some cases an inherited sin, the sin of our first natural
parents (Adam & Eve of Genesis). If by that it is meant that
when we were born to out mothers we already had the one sin, I
disagree.
MY COMMENTS BELOW ;
let us examine the issue
Original sin;
What is it?
More importantly how is it transferred to us?
Does it affect us today?
While thinking on this; many will tell you “MARY” the mother of
JESUS was not born with original sin.
Again to see if this is true or not we will need to answer the
first three questions.
God breathed into Adam the image of god; the soul of Adam and he
became a living being.
Did God breathe into Eve?
Eve got her soul from Adam.
Where do we get our soul?
The same place as Eve; the soul for each person is passed on
from Adam whom God breathed it into to.
The soul that sinnith.
with the sin of Adam the soul has been tarnished
that tarnished soul is tranfered down to each person born
where do we get our soul? each of us gets his soul from his
father
and this traces back to the father of mankind ( Adam)
who has tranfered this tarnished soul along to us.
How then is JESUS uneffected by this original sin ?
JESUS is not fathered by a human;
THUS his soul is not that of mankind.
Jesus is kin to mankind by his body.
SINCE WE HAVE A SOUL WE ALSO HAVE THE SIN OF THE WORLD
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold
the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
The singular sin; is the first one; it is original sin.
THE EFFECT OF ORIGINAL SIN
In the beginning was god
And god created darkness
And in the darkness angels are created and dwell
This is not the case for mankind
From the dust of land comes man
From the water comes land
From within the Holy Sprit the water appears.
MANKIND STARTS OFF AS FAMILY where-as angels start off as
created beings; created outside of God
ADAM and EVE listened to the stranger (the one not in the
family) and have followed him out of the family
original sin has taken ADAM & EVE out of the family of GOD
ALL WHO ARE BORN FROM THIS UNION (which is all of mankind)
is born (blind) outside of the FAMILY of GOD
WE SEE THE EVEIDENCE OF THIS IN THE NAKED STORY
They (ADAM & EVE) become aware of being Naked; but naked to who?
This nakedness is not a covering of private parts but a question
of family;
as seen in the fact Adam does not run away from Eve nor does Eve
run away from Adam.
They consider each other to be family but they hide from what
they consider non-family.
They run and hide from God.
Mankind has left the family of God.
THIS LEAVING THE FAMILY OF GOD IS THE FIRST SIN; THE ORIGINAL
SIN; THE SIN OF THE WORLD!
AGAIN; All of mankind is out of the family of God
LET US LOOK AGAIN AT THAT NEW BORN
A child comes into the world and has committed no sin themselves
WHAT ELSE CAN WE SAY ABOUT THIS CHILD?
We can also say this child who has yet to commit a sin ( if we
don't count original sin) is also born "OUTSIDE the FAMILY of
GOD"
IF THIS CHILD DIES WITHOUT LIVING LONG ENOUGH TO COMMIT A SIN ;
ARE THEY FAMILY WITH GOD?
{ AGAIN ; WE ARE DICOUNTING ORIGINAL SIN}
with these conditions in place they may be sinless ;
but they are also outside the family of GOD;
AND ARE INCAPIBLE OF BEING KINSMAN REDEEMED
-------------------------------**** KEEP THIS IN MIND WHEN
LOOKING AT
------------------------------ **** THE UN-PARDONIBLE SIN
------------------------------ **** FOR IT IS AT THE TIME WHEN
WE ARE INCAPIBLE
------------------------------ **** OF BEING KINSMAN REDEEMED
["AGAIN"]
------------------------------ **** THAT MAKES IT UNPARDONIBLE
THE NEED OF THE KINSMAN REDEEMER
1- FOR THE PAYMENT OF SIN
2- FOR THE RESTORATION INTO THE FAMILY OF GOD
ORIGINAL SIN TOOK US OUT OF THE FAMILY OF GOD
#Post#: 167--------------------------------------------------
Re: original sin
By: Raina Date: February 24, 2013, 7:21 pm
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[quote][font=courier]amadeus: If our natural parents were
living as devils, we probably moved along the road to sin a bit
faster. If we had parents who loved God in a great measure, then
the following verse could have come into play, depending on well
those parents were teaching us:
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old,
he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6[/font][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Well, you would think what was said above
would be true, but, of course it isn't always. Sometimes, the
children of less-than-ideal parents (abusive, alcoholic, drug
addict, etc) determine that they will be different. Some
children stand apart from what they've experienced and they
promise themselves that they will never do the things their
parents did.
Sometimes, children are raised in the faith by God-fearing
parents, but the children still rebel and go their own way.
To assume a child will be "just like" their parents is not fair.
(Not that you are . . . just saying) A child needs to be
encouraged to break generational sin, and to know that they CAN
do it. The pattern CAN be broken and it can begin with
them.[/font]
#Post#: 168--------------------------------------------------
Re: original sin
By: Raina Date: February 24, 2013, 8:12 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Patrick,
You're not saying that if a baby dies they are not saved, are
you? (she asks with her hands on her hips!)
I believe original sin is an inherited inclination toward sin.
Some babies, some children will have a greater inclination than
others--possibly because of genetic factors and due to
temperament. But, all will eventually commit sin.
Until a child is taught right from wrong, I'm not sure they can
be held accountable for "sin". Babies and very small children,
I can't help but believe, belong to the Kingdom of Heaven.
Perhaps as they grow older and begin to intentionally sin and be
naughty they lose that automatic position and they may be fully
capable of turning away from God. They will need to turn back.
Of course, this is speaking of an age of accountability. God
alone would know what age that would be and I imagine it would
vary from child to child.
All speculation, of course, but certainly babies and little
children are saved. Who can look at a newborn and see anything
but innocence?
A toddler--Haha, might be a bit of the devil has entered in.
Certainly "selfishness" is one of the first sins to manifest.
Nothing worse than an evil kid, like that Damien from the movie
Omen. Or those nasty children from Children of the Corn. Or
how 'bout those horrid platinum blond kids from Village of the
Damned? ;D ;D ;D
I remember in the movie (and book) Tess of the D'Urbervilles,
Tess wished for her little baby that died very young to be
buried in the Christian graveyard, but the priest refused
because the babe had not been baptized, except by dear Tess,
herself. How terrible, I thought. Tess, when she realized the
priest would not acquiesce despite her pleading, told the
priest, "Then I don't like you." I would've said the same, but
I would've kicked him in the shin, too. ;) ;D [/font]
#Post#: 171--------------------------------------------------
Re: original sin
By: alphaomega Date: February 24, 2013, 8:55 pm
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[quote author=Raina link=topic=56.msg168#msg168 date=1361758366]
[font=trebuchet ms]Patrick,
You're not saying that if a baby dies they are not saved, are
you? (she asks with her hands on her hips!)
;D [/font]
[/quote]
the babies condition of salvation is neither pro or con by this
early death
* God is not required to save this child
* aborting a child does not guarantee salvation for the child
* if the fallen angels killed one of their nephilium children
at birth it would not save that child
even if there exists a state of sinless (ness); the issue of
loss of family of god still would exist
out of the family is still out of the family
now before the time of JESUS on the cross this was not possible
and of coarse many people died
Adam to Noah to Abraham to kings to the prophets etc ; are all
of these without hope?
no of coarse not , neither are they saved in any other way than
we are today.
for them JESUS went into the gave for three days and preached
this Gospel message to them.
for these children who have died I have no trouble seeing that
they to will hear the Gospel message in the same way and those
who accept this will be saved and any that don't ----won't !
remember ; they were born outside the family of God
and only through a kinsman redeemer "JESUS" can their be a
restoration back into this family
[quote author=Raina link=topic=56.msg168#msg168
date=1361758366]
[font=trebuchet ms]
I believe original sin is an inherited inclination toward sin.
Some babies, some children will have a greater inclination than
others--possibly because of genetic factors and due to
temperament. But, all will eventually commit sin.
Until a child is taught right from wrong, I'm not sure they can
be held accountable for "sin". Babies and very small children,
I can't help but believe, belong to the Kingdom of Heaven.
[/font]
[/quote]
BUT are they in the family of GOD?
ADAM AND EVE left that family thus the children are not in the
family either
ABRAHAM was called a friend of GOD BUT NOT FAMILY
Jesus came into the world to make sons of GOD for mankind was
out of the family
also note ;
while JESUS was in his ministry several times he told someone
heir sins were forgiven
and yet he still went to the cross
forgiveness of sin or dyeing so young that sin hasn't happened
does not put one back into the family of God
THUS ; that need of a kinsman (family) redeemer
[quote author=Raina link=topic=56.msg168#msg168 date=1361758366]
[font=trebuchet ms] Perhaps as they grow older and begin to
intentionally sin and be naughty they lose that automatic
position and they may be fully capable of turning away from God.
They will need to turn back.
in my opinion it is the other way around
we start off outside the family ; we turn to Jesus as we
recognize somethings wrong
like Paul
i know what is right
i know what is wrong
i try to do right
but i do wrong
who will save me ?
we seek God ; and we find Jesus
HE KINSMAN REDEEMS US
1- he pays for our sin
2- he invites into family ( with the gift of the Holy Spirit)
Of course, this is speaking of an age of accountability. God
alone would know what age that would be and I imagine it would
vary from child to child.
All speculation, of course, but certainly babies and little
children are saved. Who can look at a newborn and see anything
but innocence?
A toddler--Haha, might be a bit of the devil has entered in.
Certainly "selfishness" is one of the first sins to manifest.
Nothing worse than an evil kid, like that Damien from the movie
Omen. Or those nasty children from Children of the Corn. Or
how 'bout those horrid platinum blond kids from Village of the
Damned? ;D ;D ;D
I remember in the movie (and book) Tess of the D'Urbervilles,
Tess wished for her little baby that died very young to be
buried in the Christian graveyard, but the priest refused
because the babe had not been baptized, except by dear Tess,
herself. How terrible, I thought. Tess, when she realized the
priest would not acquiesce despite her pleading, told the
priest, "Then I don't like you." I would've said the same, but
I would've kicked him in the shin, too. ;) ;D [/font]
[/quote]
ISN'T IT WONDERFUL that the plan of GOD is not thwarted by the
actions of any man towards those of whom
JESUS came and made sons of GOD
NOW ALL OF THE ABOVE OF COARSE IS IN MY OPINION
IT IS OFFERED (MY THOUGHTS) TO MY FRIENDS HERE FOR THEIR
PONDERING
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ASK MORE QUESTIONS AS WELL AS OFFER CONTRARY
OPINIONS
{LOL; but watch your shins, RAINA is loose in here ;D}
#Post#: 172--------------------------------------------------
Re: original sin
By: beancounter Date: February 24, 2013, 9:42 pm
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I read over the stuff, but I dont comment unless so led to do
so. I am honestly not all that smart, but I am "usually" wise
enough to know not to spew stuff out of my mouth when its all
speculation to me. Unless of course its just in fun, but I am
warry in that as well... sometimes I have spoken in fun and its
been taken the wrong way. One man's junk (fun) is another
man's treasure (heartfelt subject) sort of deal. That reminds
me, I have found some of the coolest stuff in my days in a junk
yard.... another man's junk.... or at a yard sale, etc. As to
original sin, it happened in the garden of eden. But God had a
plan to make it all right, and thats all I know for sure. For
me, thats enough.
#Post#: 173--------------------------------------------------
Re: original sin
By: Raina Date: February 24, 2013, 10:24 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Patrick,
God is not required to do anything. But, He will always do what
is right.
Aborting a child does not guarantee salvation for the child?
Please, be careful who you might say that around; could
seriously damage someone. An aborted baby is a victim. An
innocent victim. And THAT is not speculation.
Also, keep in mind:
[/font]
[quote][center][font=georgia]Matthew 19:14
New International Version (NIV)
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not
hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as
these.”[/font][/center][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Perhaps, when it comes to babies and little
children, we should just leave it at: God will always do what
is right.[/font]
#Post#: 174--------------------------------------------------
Re: original sin
By: Raina Date: February 24, 2013, 10:44 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Patrick, I'm gonna have to give you lessons
on how to use the quote function, I think. Could get confusing.
What you present gives me something to ponder. Need to think on
this . . .
[/font]
[quote]A.O. : {LOL; but watch your shins, RAINA is loose in
here ;D}
[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]You got THAT right, bro! ;) The wrath of
Raina is a well-known fact![/font]
#Post#: 176--------------------------------------------------
Re: original sin
By: Raina Date: February 25, 2013, 12:53 am
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[font=trebuchet ms]Okay, bro. I've been chewing on this. I do
understand and was intrigued by the "kinsman redeemer" concept.
Details here:
HTML http://thealphatheomega.createaforum.com/bible-discussion/jesus-the-kinsman-redeemer/msg128/#msg128
HTML http://thealphatheomega.createaforum.com/bible-discussion/jesus-the-kinsman-redeemer/msg128/#msg128<br
/> Now, if I set aside for a moment my intense love of babies an
d
fuzzy things ::), I do see what you're saying concerning "out of
the family" and going "into the family." And, it fits in with
God desiring a family for Himself.
So, Jesus is the perfect one to "kinsman redeem" anyone who will
come to Him, but not all will do so. Through Him we receive
forgiveness; he "ransoms" us.
However, I can see that the salvation of Christ becomes very
exclusive. Only those who come to Him are saved; only those
ransomed; only those forgiven through Him--only those in the
family. This exclusivity is something many will balk at. And,
again, my emotions get in the way as I think of "all those poor
unsaved people." But, I suppose it is a matter of trusting God
to do what is right. He knows His own. And salvation is open
to all. But not all will be saved. I think this is biblical.
I need to study over the "kinsman redeemer" thread again. But
not tonight. I need to be in bed forty minutes ago.
Question, Patrick: In your opinion (of course), if a child
belonging to parents who have chosen Christ were to die, would
that child automatically be saved because the child would be "in
the family" (because the child's parents are "in the
family")?[/font]
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