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#Post#: 78--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
By: Amadeus Date: November 17, 2012, 9:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[Quote]For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will
enlighten my darkness." Ps 18:28[/quote]
[Quote]what is this darkness that David speaks of here? ; is it
not the darkness david is born into and from ?
The darkness of this world is the fallen angels and their
deception imposed upon mankind.[/quote]
[font=courier]The darkness is certainly that of fallen angels,
but it is also, and perhaps more to the point, a lacking of the
love, which is God. Not only David, but every man is born into
darkness and is derived from darkness. Yet, there is love (God's
love or light) although only a minute amount in every man born
of woman (John 1:9). Do not even some of the worst heathens love
their children? The deception lies in the presumption that man
alone can really love as God loves, can work better than God can
work, or that God is not even in the equation.
Remember the first two sons of Aaron who offered strange fire?
That was a bit of their own fire, or light, but God rejected it.
We must offer ourselves completely (Rom 12:1) and then will He
accept our tiny offering and then we can be increased, 30, 60 or
even 100 fold. We cannot come to God as if we are something
already. He knows better than we do exactly what we are and what
we are not. Praise His name![/font]
[quote]Does this darkness begin in Gen 1 or Gen 3? When was it
that messengers (angels) began imposing their deception upon
mankind? Haven't they always been doing it, beginning in the
garden of Eden (Gen 3) up until the present day?
Which is the beginning of darkness? Gen 1 or Gen 3?[/quote]
[quote]AlphaO: the darkness that david speaks of
................
this darkness is the separating from "GOD'S" family is the
influenece of the fallen angels.REMEMBER; they {the fallen} are
from that darkness {heavens} and not from light {the world}
DARKNESS BEGINS in heaven; however the influence upon man begins
at the"tree"[/quote]
[font=courier]I agree that darkness may begin in a heaven, in
the sense that a heaven is in a carnal man. This is not God's
heaven. This is man's deception, which he may call heaven, or
some other positive name. I do not believe that it, in the eyes
of God, is heaven nor is it, in His eyes, positive. [/font]
[Quote]AlphaO: WE SEE ; in the new testament the references to
whose family mankind is in
John 8:44 New King James Version (NKJV)
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your
father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and
does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he
is a liar and the father of it.
So then is not their father, the devil, the 1st man Adam, who by
his disobedience killed himself and all of his descendants? The
only other Father is God. God was Adam's Father until he was
disinherited. He was removed from the garden and forbidden
access to Life as were all of his descendants.
============================================
is thier father the devil "adam" ?
no; adam becomes the conduit for the fallen seeking "a way back
into heaven"[/quote]
[font=courier]Before looking at your next statements about
satan, I must insert a few thoughts on satan. Where from is this
satan? Is he a creature? That is, was he created? Were not all
creatures created by God? So when was this separate creature
created? Satan is apparently not "very good" so seemingly he was
not created prior to Gen. 1:31, which calls all of God’s
creation "very good". Yet, then, lo and behold, in Gen. 3, the
serpent called satan (Rev 12:9) comes on the scene. Was this
satan created by someone or something other than God? Surely
this satan could not be called "very good"![/font]
[quote]AlphaO: SATAN KNOWS ; mankind will be called into heaven
SATAN KNOWS ; he can't control /gain access to eternal heaven
without something changing
and that change requiires that access that will be aforded to
mankind { later}
GOD was ADAM'S FATHER {and family} until adam & eve left the
family ....
but the issue becomes which family are the "children" from?
having left the family of "light" {the family of GOD} then are
not the "children" from this family of darkness?[/quote]
[font=courier]The word "adam" simply means "man". There was a
first man, of course.
How does this supposedly separate creature (satan) KNOW
anything? Where did he get this knowledge? Is there any
knowledge anywhere, which ultimately does not come from God? I
agree that Adam (mankind) was disinherited. He became in effect
a bastard. All of the natural descendants were from the 1st man
Adam. He was their father now, the devil, the satan, the
adversary, the source of "new" darkness. Man (every man) was
given the ability (by God) to disobey God, to do things that
would not please God. When man did things this way he made "dark
things". He made more darkness. To God this was simply death.
There was no Life in the things man made which did not please
God.
Yes, all mankind was of and in the family of darkness. However,
even in the beginning, God did not leave man with no hope. He
speaks of hope continuously throughout scripture begininng after
that first described disobedience. In the following verse we see
very early on that some took hold of the hope given by God to
men:
"And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called
his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the
LORD." Gen 4:26[/font]
[Quote]AlphaO:
AND
Matthew 16:23 New King James Version (NKJV)
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You
are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of
God, but the things of men.”
SHOWING MANKIND NOT IN THE FAMILY OF GOD ;
and being fathered by Satan and those from darkness ; the fallen
angels[/quote]
[font=courier]But... angels must be messengers, whether bringing
good tidings (Gabriel to Mary) or evil tidings (a soldier to Eli
the high priest at the death of 2 sons and the taking of the
tabernacle of God). [/font]
[Quote]AlphaO:
THUS WE SEE
John 8:19 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?”
Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had
known Me, you would have known My Father also.”
A DIFFERENCE IN FAMILY BETWEEN JESUS AND THESE OF MANKIND HERE
AND THEN
Matthew 23:9
New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your
Father, He who is in heaven.
THOSE WHO ARE BROUGHT TO LIFE BY A HUMAN FATHER ARE IN DARKNESS
; BUT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED TO THEMSELVES AND ACCEPTED CHRIST HAVE
BECOME A NEW CREATION{brought to life eternal} FATHERED BY GOD
.[/quote]
[font=courier]Yes, a human father starting with the 1st man
Adam. And such were we also until (and if) we were "born
again".[/font]
[Quote]Where was man created? Was it a place of light or
darkness?[/quote]
[Quote]AlphaO:
ADAM was created in a world of LIGHT; and EVE WAS CREATED from
within ADAM
He certainly moved into darkness after the fall
EXACTLY; and all of mankind who follow ; all who are born {born
blind} are fathered by this action; born from the actions of the
darkness[/quote]
[font=courier]Agreed![/font]
#Post#: 79--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
By: Amadeus Date: November 17, 2012, 10:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]THIS HAS BEEN DEBATED THROUGH THE POST-JESUS ERA ;
imo---- on is on ; ( saved is saved) [/quote]
[font=courier]Yes, God saved me from a violent automobile
collision the other day, but today is another day. From every
day and every situation, which would move us away from God, we
must be saved. I was saved yesterday. I have been saved today.
If there is a tomorrow, I can also be saved tomorrow.[/font]
[quote]the only points of merrit to dispose this postion comes
from the books of romans to jude ;
and "THUS; one must accept these books as "knowing absolutly
---what is"
a carefull study shows that is not the case
example ;
paul vs james
many people say they agree ; and the writing in scripture
"clearly" shows they don't agree
THUS' that know it all position is "clearly not absolute"
my point
CAN A PEARL TURN BACK INTO SAND?[/quote]
[font=courier]Actually it is a bit more troubling than that:
The following is an Internet response to someone's question
about pearls apparently "melting" in vinegar:[/font]
[quote]A pearl is mostly calcium carbonate, which is susceptible
to even a weak acid solution. The crystals of calcium carbonate
are converted by acetic acid (vinegar) into calcium, which
dissolves in the residual water, and carbonate that effervesces
as bubbles of carbon dioxide, the formula for which is CaCO3 +
CH3COOH --> Ca + H2O + CO2.[/quote]
[quote]AlphaO: in the parable of the pearl of great price we see
the traveler taking the pearl to his fathers house; he does not
take land or even sand.
i would say that your examples of carnal man and spiritual man
are not clearly seen to be true ; or that they are not part of
the biblical story's intended message.[/quote]
[font=courier]Paul calls them the "old man" and the "new" or
"inner man". John the Baptist ssaid, "He must increase, but I
must decrease."[John 3:30], the one increasing was the "new man"
and the one decreasing was the "old man". The new man is that
"built without hands".
The old man is the carnal, the corruptible. The new man is the
Spiritual (not of wrong spirits, but of the Holy Spirit), the
incorruptible. Simplified, this is my take on it.
[quote]AlphaO: when i hear this i see; the sand turning into a
pearl and then back into sand!
i sermize this to mean that you ( the world) are seeing this as
"the flesh of mankind" where-as i see the pearl being that which
is separated apart from the flesh[/quote]
[font=courier][size=14pt]Not back into sand, but even less, or
perhaps, better said, worse than sand. Sand is, or can be
cleaned.
"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh
through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came
out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and
garnished.
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more
wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the
last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it
be also unto this wicked generation." Matt 12:43-45 [/font]
[quote]AlphaO: try this;
you see me in a car drive by and you say
"there goes patrick"
and that would be true
HOWEVER ;
LATER YOU SAW ME WALKING DOWN THE STREET ;
and again you say
"there goes patrick "
and so we see ; i am ( with or without my vehicle )
i am ; (with or without my flesh)[/quote]
[font=courier]Yes, but the old "I am" is corruptible and
corrupted. This is why a new temple (a new "I am") is needed and
we cannot build it with our "hands"
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in
corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in
weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There
is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." I
Cor 15:42-45
So it was with Jesus and so is the promise to us. We must put
off the "old man" and put on the "new". We must be changed from
a corruptible thing that kills to an incorruptible thing that
brings to Life![/font]
[quote]AlphO: now delving deeper ;
jesus washes my car
jesus washes the "land" off of me
as seen as when he washes the disciples feet[/quote]
[font=courier]Our own land is corrupted by poor usage. So it is
with a farmer's field that he repeatedly abuses by failing to
rotate crops, by failing to fertilize, or otherwise properly
care for the land. (We are to be good stewards.) Eventually, the
yield of that field will be poor to none.
The "land" washed off is that which we have brushed against when
we received the lies of men or the bribes of men or the mammon
of men. They offered it and we took it even though it was
contaminated. It looked good, but underneath it was rotten. It
needs to be cleaned off, so we can see what we really have and
what we do not. [/font]
[quote]he told them ; "those who are clean <-----------!!!"
need "only" have their feet washed
those who are not clean ; washing the feet does them
no-good!!![/quote]
[font=courier]We must walk to better places in God. The better
places will cleanse us more deeply. They will remove also the
things within us, which are not sin, but are men's ways, which
when followed will lead us to sin repeatedly. A man who truly
repents has the sin removed, but the ways of men remain. This is
why he will sin again, until and if the ways of men are all
removed.[/font]
[quote]this washing isn't cleaning them ;
it is removing the flesh
before reaching heaven
land / sand ; doesn't go to heaven
my car doesn't go to heaven
the "works" of my car ; don't go to heaven[/quote]
[font=courier]And man doesn't go to heaven. Heaven comes to him
IF he has become an acceptable place for God to dwell. Jesus had
no place to lie his head, but now he does. He and his Father
dwell in overcomers. Jesus became the Door for men to become
overcomers, but the outer court is not the most Holy Place. The
place where the Father dwells is beyond even the Holy Place in
the Holiest of Holies.
Jesus is in his Father and his Father is in him. And we... in
outer darkness or the Holies of Holies?
"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world,
and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name
those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."
John 17:11[/font]
[quote]land ; all of mankind
sand; mankind that comes from abraham
****; this includes the alien who lives among ; for they are
counted as native born
both ; body and soul[/quote]
[font=courier]But all of men of mankind are lumped together.
They cling together and build their towers of Babel together and
become ever more confused in the eyes of God as they continue to
follow their own ways or follow the ways of other men.
God calls individual pieces of land out of the conglomerate
confused mess of men, if they will hear Him and if they will
obey Him.
When they come out and they begin to move toward Him, He moves
toward them, building through His Son, Jesus a place where He
can dwell, where His Son can lay his head. As the individual
pieces of land a built anew (born again or from above), come
ALIVE as the Body of Christ (the Head leading and directing)
then the Bride of Christ (the new Adam's rib, if you will) in
which there is no flaw, no blemish, no wrinkle, or any such
thing is taken out of it.[/font]
[quote]AlphO: pearls ; some else entirely
*****; that re-born ; "new creation"
not body & soul but now soul and HOLY SPIRIT <---PEARL[/quote]
[font=courier]The new creation is not intended to be simply a
"new creation" as a separate unit, but eventually a part of the
Body of Christ, and even hopefully a part of the Bride of
Christ. But... don't put pearls in vinegar or other acids before
they have been properly placed![/font]
#Post#: 89--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
By: Raina Date: November 25, 2012, 10:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]I have a huge list of "things of heaven" that
I once compiled from Scripture for a story I was writing. I'll
share them here eventually, but at the moment I'm too tired to
go on.[/font]
HTML http://emotloader.hu/emoticons/sleep/Dormir_6%20-%20emotloader.hu.gif
#Post#: 101--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
By: Raina Date: December 1, 2012, 9:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]Well, here is my list. I compiled it for
ideas and inspiration for a story I was writing. Most all had
Scriptural back-up, although, unfortunately I did not list the
verses. I know some of this may have symbolic meaning as
opposed to literal, but then again--who knows? I know my ideas
are a bit "simplistic', and there's a lot of "me" in them, but,
honestly, I think heaven will be infinitely more glorious than I
could imagine.
Here goes:
~immortality
~no sickness
~no death
~"build houses"
~"plant vineyards"
~abundant beauty
~joy, praise, song
~Jesus!
~God! (Light)
~Vistas of unimaginable beauty
~Colors never seen on earth
~peace
~one language (all races)
~no locks, bars, gates, fences
~no reason to fear anyone
~animals at peace
~"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat
straw like the ox"
~tangible happiness
~no final good-byes
~reunions
~health restored: "eyes of the blind shall be opened, ears of
the deaf shall be unstopped. Then shall the lame man leap as an
hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing."
~food in plenty
~Jerusalem, streets of gold
~No sun, for God is the light
~No moon
~vast knowledge resources and study
~City made by God contrasts with city made by man
~Man safe with animals
~Animals safe with man
~"There shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying,
neither shall there be anymore pain"
~Enjoyable, fulfilling work
~Sabbath
~Pilgrimage (travel)
~No hospitals
~No cemetaries
~No shadows
~the arts are celebrated
~New Jerusalem: 450x the size of New York city; 12 pillars bear
the names of the 12 disciples; river of life; tree of life
~city home and a country home
~Jesus is a builder who knows exactly what each of us would most
like. As soon as you see what he has prepared, there will be a
responsive cord in your heart, and you'll know you're in heaven
~travel at the speed of light (like the wind!)
~"They shall run and not grow weary"
~Entire universe open to study
~Speak with and meet people of the Bible
~emanating "glow" from individuals of various intensity (not
sure where I came up with that)
[/font]
[quote][center][font=andale mono]1 Corinthians 2:9
New Living Translation (NLT)
9 That is what the Scriptures mean when they say,
“No eye has seen, no ear has heard,
and no mind has imagined
what God has prepared
for those who love him.” [/font][/center][/quote]
[quote][center][font=andale mono]Isaiah 11:6-9
New Living Translation (NLT)
6 In that day the wolf and the lamb will live together;
the leopard will lie down with the baby goat.
The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion,
and a little child will lead them all.
7 The cow will graze near the bear.
The cub and the calf will lie down together.
The lion will eat hay like a cow.
8 The baby will play safely near the hole of a cobra.
Yes, a little child will put its hand in a nest of deadly
snakes without harm.
9 Nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,
for as the waters fill the sea,
so the earth will be filled with people who know the
Lord.[/font][/center][/quote]
[center][font=trebuchet ms]Life is for living; Light is for
later.
Before you can feel truest joy, you must know deepest
sorrow.[/font]
[/center]
[font=trebuchet ms]My story was to be about people who went to
heaven without dying and who could choose to come back to earth
to work for God. Such people were chosen by God to help reveal
heaven to those struggling on earth. If, while on earth, a
"traveler" falls in love, they may choose to stay, but they will
give up their position as traveler and will once again become
vulnerable and face aging and natural death. I wanted to create
a very dramatic contrast between "heaven" and "earth".
What if two travelers accidentally meet up and were to fall in
love on earth? Would they desire an earthly life together at the
cost of freedom to go to and from heaven? Would they wish to
experience an earthly life and all it entails after knowing
heaven? What would their joys and sorrow be like if they stay?
Would love temper the pain of temporarily losing access to
heaven? Or would love BECOME a part of heaven on earth?
God has a nursery where new "lifelight" is created and stored by
God (future babies). Here, people can learn of future
descendents. What if one of the "traveler" couple in love has
secretly seen lifelight in the nursery that descends from them?
Will she tell her soul-mate or will she wait for him to make the
decision of his own volition? Just how special might that
child--this family-- be?
Lots of ideas, never fully developed. Maybe one day . . .
[/font]
#Post#: 102--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
By: alphaomega Date: December 2, 2012, 12:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Raina link=topic=37.msg101#msg101 date=1354418636]
[font=trebuchet ms]Well, here is my list. I compiled it for
ideas and inspiration for a story I was writing. Most all had
Scriptural back-up, although, unfortunately I did not list the
verses. I know some of this may have symbolic meaning as
opposed to literal, but then again--who knows? I know my ideas
are a bit "simplistic', and there's a lot of "me" in them, but,
honestly, I think heaven will be infinitely more glorious than I
could imagine.
Here goes:
~immortality
~no sickness
~no death
~"build houses"
~"plant vineyards"
~abundant beauty
~joy, praise, song
~Jesus!
~God! (Light)
~Vistas of unimaginable beauty
~Colors never seen on earth
~peace
~one language (all races)
~no locks, bars, gates, fences
~no reason to fear anyone
~animals at peace
~"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat
straw like the ox"
~tangible happiness
~no final good-byes
~reunions
~health restored: "eyes of the blind shall be opened, ears of
the deaf shall be unstopped. Then shall the lame man leap as an
hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing."
~food in plenty
~Jerusalem, streets of gold
~No sun, for God is the light
~No moon
~vast knowledge resources and study
~City made by God contrasts with city made by man
~Man safe with animals
~Animals safe with man
~"There shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying,
neither shall there be anymore pain"
~Enjoyable, fulfilling work
~Sabbath
~Pilgrimage (travel)
~No hospitals
~No cemetaries
~No shadows
~the arts are celebrated
~New Jerusalem: 450x the size of New York city; 12 pillars bear
the names of the 12 disciples; river of life; tree of life
~city home and a country home
~Jesus is a builder who knows exactly what each of us would most
like. As soon as you see what he has prepared, there will be a
responsive cord in your heart, and you'll know you're in heaven
~travel at the speed of light (like the wind!)
~"They shall run and not grow weary"
~Entire universe open to study
~Speak with and meet people of the Bible
~emanating "glow" from individuals of various intensity (not
sure where I came up with that)
[/font]
[quote][center][font=andale mono]1 Corinthians 2:9
New Living Translation (NLT)
9 That is what the Scriptures mean when they say,
“No eye has seen, no ear has heard,
and no mind has imagined
what God has prepared
for those who love him.” [/font][/center][/quote]
[quote][center][font=andale mono]Isaiah 11:6-9
New Living Translation (NLT)
6 In that day the wolf and the lamb will live together;
the leopard will lie down with the baby goat.
The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion,
and a little child will lead them all.
7 The cow will graze near the bear.
The cub and the calf will lie down together.
The lion will eat hay like a cow.
8 The baby will play safely near the hole of a cobra.
Yes, a little child will put its hand in a nest of deadly
snakes without harm.
9 Nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,
for as the waters fill the sea,
so the earth will be filled with people who know the
Lord.[/font][/center][/quote]
[center][font=trebuchet ms]Life is for living; Light is for
later.
Before you can feel truest joy, you must know deepest
sorrow.[/font]
[/center]
[font=trebuchet ms]My story was to be about people who went to
heaven without dying and who could choose to come back to earth
to work for God. Such people were chosen by God to help reveal
heaven to those struggling on earth. If, while on earth, a
"traveler" falls in love, they may choose to stay, but they will
give up their position as traveler and will once again become
vulnerable and face aging and natural death. I wanted to create
a very dramatic contrast between "heaven" and "earth".
What if two travelers accidentally meet up and were to fall in
love on earth? Would they desire an earthly life together at the
cost of freedom to go to and from heaven? Would they wish to
experience an earthly life and all it entails after knowing
heaven? What would their joys and sorrow be like if they stay?
Would love temper the pain of temporarily losing access to
heaven? Or would love BECOME a part of heaven on earth?
God has a nursery where new "lifelight" is created and stored by
God (future babies). Here, people can learn of future
descendents. What if one of the "traveler" couple in love has
secretly seen lifelight in the nursery that descends from them?
Will she tell her soul-mate or will she wait for him to make the
decision of his own volition? Just how special might that
child--this family-- be?
Lots of ideas, never fully developed. Maybe one day . . .
[/font]
[/quote]
adding to your list
no broken things ?
no lost things?
no need of sleep;
no rush /time pressue of doing something
no alarm clocks
no overtime
like tho old days ; saying'hi" and smileing to everyone as you
walk down the street
#Post#: 103--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
By: Raina Date: December 2, 2012, 4:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]I've been reading through this thread, and it
was very interesting to me to try to understand how you both
(alphaomega and amadeus) see things.
I just keep thinking of that expression, "it's not either/or but
both/ and". At least in many instances.
* * * * * * [/font]
[quote]Patrick: i wouldn't think mankind could cause the
destuction of a place {heaven} they have never been ;
thus the sin of the fallen angels must be the cause { imo}
[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Here, I see that Patrick believes the first
heaven is the heaven where Satan (an angel) rebelled against
God, and that this heaven was "destroyed" by this rebellion (war
in heaven), thereby creating the need for a new heaven. (Am I
reflecting your thoughts correctly, Patrick?) It is true that
sin can not be in the presence of God. So . . .
Is it that heaven was a place of perfection and beauty and unity
before God, but then one of the created angels rebelled? The
traditional story goes that this angel was then cast out, to
earth, where, in due time he tempted Adam (or man) to eat of the
forbidden fruit (pride), causing, in turn, the fall of mankind.
Man chose to disobey God and to listen to the lies of the
Serpent, whose intent it was from the time pride entered his
being, to defy God. By causing the fall of mankind, this fallen
angel struck at man (another creation of God, apart from the
angels). It was his pleasure to cause the fall of mankind for
no other reason than that he hates what God loves. And God
loved his creation on earth, but, as in heaven, this creation
must be obedient unto God.
We were tested.
So the stage was set, and man failed the test from the onset.
Genesis 3. Now, not only is there need for a new heaven, but
for a new earth.
* * * * * *
I see (correct me if I'm wrong) that amadeus believes "Satan" is
actually man without the Holy Ghost dwelling within. Patrick
believes Satan is a fallen angel, created before the earth was
ever created, who rebelled and was cast to earth, which by that
time was also created and in its infancy.
What if both are somehow true?
God has children. If we have the Spirit, then we are the
Children of God.
What if Satan has children? As I studied earlier today, the
spirit of man is an empty vessel, waiting to be filled. At the
fall, we lost the Spirit of God. We fell. The spirit of Satan
wishes to enter in where the Spirit of God vacated. Satan
seems to have won, seems to have ruined earth and mankind.
But . . . God will not let us go so easily, so He creates a way
back. A long, arduous journey for mankind spanning centuries,
but one that will afford possibility of redemption for those who
have fallen to Satan's deceit. And one through which mankind
will come to "know" evil and understand the consequence of pride
and the hideous fallout of sin against God.
The battle-lines are drawn. God knows He must fill that empty
vessel--the spirit of man. Satan wishes to fill it first. And
so we have two contrasting, opposing forces vying for our soul.
This battle wages within and without, I believe.
How will God fill the empty vessels of our spirit? Christ! In
Jesus, He found the way to our hearts. He proved His love and
drew us to Himself again, writing His law on our hearts and
causing us to obey.
Who will heed the call?
If we recognize Jesus as our salvation from God, we receive the
Spirit of God and our vessel--our spirit-- can be filled with
God's Spirit, leaving no room for the Enemy to work within us.
We waver, and the Holy Spirit battles with the unholy--there
inside of us. And also outside of us, because we exist, now,
under much influence of this fallen world--a world of which
Satan is the "prince". Remember that Jesus said His Kingdom is
NOT of this world. (This world, despite some vestiges of light,
is, I believe, infinitely darker than we even realize.) We are
torn, we are tempted, we are weak, but it is always in turning
to Christ that we are strengthened. The more we turn toward
God, the harder Satan fights to regain control. Thus, the
trials that always seem to come after any spiritual victory.
Satan wants us to fall with him. To also meet the destruction he
faces. (And God allows the testing, for we must pass the tests
and "overcome" as Jesus did.) We overcome strictly by faith.
Faith is our righteousness. Believing God. (And recognizing
Satan as the ultimate Liar.) But, if we truly desire salvation,
God will help us fight. He will do it for us. We need only
lean on Him and desire Him and His way with all of our hearts
and souls and minds.
Ultimately, for those who love God, the victory is certain. It
already is.
That's what Jesus meant when He said, "It is finished." When
Jesus died on the cross, the head of the Serpent was crushed.
It is my thought that Satan did not even understand this. He
thought he had won by murdering the Son of God, but God knew
that in that day, death was defeated and the path to Life was
paved.
* * * * * *
This is the way I have always understood the battle between good
and evil. I believe there is an entity, a fallen angel, called
Satan. I believe pride is the root of sin and it began in
heaven with a rebellious angel. I believe Scripture tells us a
third of the angels followed Satan in his rebellion, and the
rest remained fiercely loyal to God. Pride is cancer. Remember
Jesus did not seek "equality" with God, but humbled Himself, as
we should do.
This is a story that began, I believe, before the creation of
the earth. I do believe God knew and foresaw what Satan would
do, and that is why Jesus is said to be "the lamb slain from the
foundation of the world."
Further, look at this verse:
[/font]
[quote][center][font=georgia]Revelation 13:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to
overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and
tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose
names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from
the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
[/font][/center][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]This verse is actually scarey, in that it
tells us that if you are not worshiping God, you are, in
essence, worshiping the "the dragon". Amazingly, it tells us
that the names of those who belong to God are already written in
the Lambs book of life. Somehow, and don't ask ME to explain,
God has known from the very beginning which of us will choose
salvation, choose Christ.
Are those verses futuristic, or they happening right now in the
life of every man? Both? Are we awaiting a final climax of
sorts?
This is why I so believe the time to choose is NOW. And I DO
NOT believe all men will be saved. Just as some of the angels
will be eternally lost, so too will the men who follow after
them and their ways.
I so want to understand. So I study. But, I don't know if I
will live long enough to understand it all. I won't. But I
want to be in God's hand. On His side. I want His armor and I
want to win this battle I am in. And I have felt hard-pressed
by this battle from early on.
I think we live an epic saga, never realizing what we are a part
of. It isn't just about what physically goes on in the world
around us. Not by any means.
The greatest battle is what goes on within us! If our spirit is
not filled by God, what will enter in?
I want no part of THAT! God help us all.
[/font]
#Post#: 104--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
By: Raina Date: December 2, 2012, 4:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]Consider these verses:
[/font]
[quote][center][font=andale mono]7 And there was war in heaven:
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon
fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in
heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called
the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was
cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with
him.[/font][/center][/quote]
#Post#: 105--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
By: Raina Date: December 2, 2012, 4:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]What is the time frame of the elements of the
story?
Satan rebels in heaven.
Earth is created.
Satan tempts Adam, causing the "Fall".
Jesus comes to earth.
War breaks out in heaven.
Satan and his angels are permanently cast out.
The earth is infested with these beings (spirits) of darkness.
Each man must choose.
Final victory.
A new heaven and a new earth.
* * * * *
And, is much of this war a war of "spiritual forces"--something
man can not see with his eyes?
God is spirit.
Are angels spirit? Or is it that angels, like men, have a
"spirit"?
Is anything not of the earth of the "spiritual realm"?
[/font]
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