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#Post#: 54--------------------------------------------------
Heaven/Revelation21-22
DIR By: Raina
Date: November 5, 2012, 9:00 pm
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What do we know of heaven? Where is heaven? What will we look
like in heaven? What will we do there?
Your thoughts?
#Post#: 55--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
DIR By: alphaomega
Date: November 5, 2012, 10:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Raina link ---
>
> What do we know of heaven? Where is heaven? What will we
look like in heaven? What will we do there?
>
> Your thoughts?
>
--- End Quote ---
what do we know of heaven
have you ever heard of those who have traveled there and come
back?
it is important to remember this one thing when discussing
heaven .........................
that heaven ; which most people are speaking about; will pass
away
and the heaven we seek to live in ; has not yet been created
where is heaven
after seeing what i said in the above ;
the heaven we are talking about ( that one in the next life)
is it all that man will experience away from the new earth?
what will we look like in heaven
[img][/img]
see picture
what will we do there
it will be different ; for sure ; in that what is there to buy?
and even further ; what will break and have to be replaced?
--------------- this alone changes; there from this world
what does a child do ?
--------------- play?
-------------- won't we play there too?
--------------- before the fall ; what did adam do?
--------------- won't it be the same?
just some ( maybe silly ) thoughts
#Post#: 56--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
DIR By: Amadeus
Date: November 5, 2012, 10:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Our vision, when we have a vision includes in it, heaven or even
heavens.
Heaven as I recently read may be an exalted position, either for
good or for bad. It is not a geographical location at all. If we
exalt ourselves, we ascend (even if only for a dreaming moment)
to a higher place. But, we should recall the words of Jesus
about elevating ourselves. When the Master comes He will put us
in our proper place. If we have elevated ourselves rather than
letting Him do, we are very likely to find ourselves at the
bottom of the heap or even outside of the Lord's camp.
The heaven that belongs to a man for ever is the one obtained as
indicated by these words:
"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die..."
John 11:26
Where or what will this be?
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is
Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious
stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall
declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire
shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall
receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he
himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." I Cor 3:11-15
Anyone who has and keeps the right foundation (Jesus Christ) to
the end will be in a be with the Lord, but the other verses
quoted speak of additional rewards for whatever else we have at
the end which has gone successfully through the fire.
What are the gold and the silver and the precious stones? They
are much more than special natural elements which the carnal man
loves to posess. Search the scriptures carefully and prayerfully
regarding those things, and it is likely that we will have a
better picture for the extra rewards...
There is a salvation for some very beastly creatures as we see
in the ark that carried them though the flood with Noah. What is
the difference between riding through the flood at the top of
the ark and riding through it at the bottom? Everyone gets to
move out of the ark, but what are they to be then?
When we can accurately answer those questions, then we may have
a good idea of how things will be. Who can answer them
accurately without the lead of the Spirit?
#Post#: 57--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
DIR By: alphaomega
Date: November 7, 2012, 5:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Amadeus link ---
>
> Our vision, when we have a vision includes in it, heaven or
even heavens.
>
> Heaven as I recently read may be an exalted position, either
for good or for bad. It is not a geographical location at all.
If we exalt ourselves, we ascend (even if only for a dreaming
moment) to a higher place. ?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
don't get me wronh here ; for i like your post
"but;"
heaven is an exaltd position ?????????????
from scripture ; i have some doubts about our understanding this
we all agree ; the earth will pass away
but; so will the heaven that is now in place
the fallen angels would not have fallen if they kept their place
and the place for man to meet ("right now") Jesus is here on
earth
THERE IS NO NEED TO BUILD A TOWER OF BABYLON
to reach up to see JESUS ; in fact it is not approved of !
when we "go-off" in our minds ;
it is not asending to a higher place
we don't reach heaven; nor should that even be our goal
for even moses was told to take his shoes off
for while on this earth there are also places of holy ground
was Moses in a place lower than heaven as he talked with god
upon the mountain?
----------------------------- OR
---------------------------------------------------------
is where GOD is ; holy enough?
HEAVEN is a geological place ; in that the fallen angels left it
the geological location on earth where the garden of eden
existed still remains ;
though the garden itself has been removed
the body of mankind will always be carnal ; ------------- yet;
we are called to become something new
imo; -------------------
it becomes essential to see; the body will not be saved
and thus; works done by the body will not be saved either
we all have sinned ; will sin exist in the new heaven ?
will forgiven sin exist in the new heaven ?
a parable in a story
we want to go heaven in the end of time ;
think of it as we want to go shopping ;
we get in our car ( our body) and take off
but when we get to the store ( heaven) what goes in ?
does the car ( body) or do we get out of the car ( body) in
order for us ( new creation / soul-spirit) to go in?
--- Quote from: Amadeus link ---
>
>
>
> There is a salvation for some very beastly creatures as we see
in the ark that carried them though the flood with Noah. What is
the difference between riding through the flood at the top of
the ark and riding through it at the bottom? Everyone gets to
move out of the ark, but what are they to be then?
>
> When we can accurately answer those questions, then we may
have a good idea of how things will be. Who can answer them
accurately without the lead of the Spirit?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
note; the beastly creature that went through the flood ; still
died ( later)
note; that spirit leading ; is that not the Holy Spirit in which
jesus sent to dwell in us ?
putting it all together ;
there are no shoes in heaven;
let us go
back to Moses as he was on-top the mountain ; and GOD told him
to take off his shoes
now let us look at JESUS when he washed the disciples feet.DID
JESUS WASH THE FEET OF THE WHOLE WORLD? WHERE NOT THE DISCIPLES
TOLD THAT IF HE DIDN'T WASH THEIR FEET THEY WOULD NOT BE HIS ?
WERE NOT THE DISCIPLES TOLD THAT a person who is clean need only
wash their feet?
the carnal is body and soul ; and he is unclean
the works that he does ; are also a-pistos ( not of Gods
purpose)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
this does not mean GOD disapproves of them or that they are not
intend by GOD for man to do them ; it means they are not pistos
; GOD'S intended works for bringing salvation to those who seek
to be of family with GOD.
* taking out the garbage
* painting the fence
* eating ice cream
**** none of these things are evil
**** niether are they the way to bring about salvation for the
family of GOD
THESE ARE THINGS THE CARNAL AND SPIRITUAL MAN DOES
IF I DO THE ABOVE FOR SOMEONE ELSE ; are they good works?
answer************** no ; they do not bring about salvation for
the family of GOD
THEY ARE ; things that the body does
both the believer as well as the non believer do these things
`*`* A GOOD WORK MUST BE SOMETHING THAT A UN-BELIEVER CANNOT DO
`*`* A GOOD WORK MUST BE SOMETHING THAT THE BODY CANNOT DO
A BELIEVER IS MADE CLEAN; by accepting what JESUS has done
yet; he still must take off his shoes ; so that he feet can be
washed
THIS IS ; removing the body
THIS IS ; getting out of the car
THIS MUST BE DONE ; before we "go in"
as to the leading of the HOLY SPIRIT
is he ( the Holy Spirit) teaching us what the soon to be gone
heaven is like?
SOUNDS KINDA 'A"-PISTOS TO ME
or is he ......................................................
PISTOS ; bringing to our minds that which is "family" business ?
but i digress ; don't i ?
on this site; it is my hope
that conversations like these can be developed into a more
worked through understandings
please do not be afraid to question ; challenge ;test; or add
more
#Post#: 62--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
DIR By: Amadeus
Date: November 9, 2012, 1:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Our vision, when we have a vision includes in it, heaven or
even heavens.
>
> Heaven as I recently read may be an exalted position, either
for good or for bad. It is not a geographical location at all.
If we exalt ourselves, we ascend (even if only for a dreaming
moment) to a higher place. ?
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> alphaomega: don't get me wronh here ; for i like your post
>
> "but;"
>
> heaven is an exaltd position ?
--- End Quote ---
Look at what the natural man calls "heaven": the sky above. It
is exalted or elevated or above us in a physical sense, even as
our secular leaders are above us. They are exalted, but only
those who are elevated by God have a meanful lasting exalted
place.
--- Quote ---
> from scripture ; i have some doubts about our understanding
this
>
> we all agree ; the earth will pass away
> but; so will the heaven that is now in place
--- End Quote ---
Doesn't the "heaven" which is to pass away consist of the
positions made by men in order to exalt themselves?
--- Quote ---
> the fallen angels would not have fallen if they kept their
place
> and the place for man to meet ("right now") Jesus is here on
earth
--- End Quote ---
To me the "fallen angels" are men who were called by God to
carry a message (preachers, teachers, evangelists, etc.) and
they accepted the call; but then they backslid all the way down.
--- Quote ---
> THERE IS NO NEED TO BUILD A TOWER OF BABYLON
> to reach up to see JESUS ; in fact it is not approved of !
>
> when we "go-off" in our minds ;
> it is not asending to a higher place
--- End Quote ---
To men it is a higher place to themselves and to other men of
similar mind. Like the Pharisees of old "they have their
reward". They have their glory. They have their little "heaven"
but it is very temporal corruptible sort of heaven.
--- Quote ---
> we don't reach heaven; nor should that even be our goal
> for even moses was told to take his shoes off
> for while on this earth there are also places of holy ground
--- End Quote ---
Doesn't our goal need to be to please God? If we do, then He
will elevate us. He will sit us properly at a "higher place".
The "higher place" (heaven) is not our goal, but it is a reward
prepared for some, who have pleased God.
The "holy ground" here is, or should be, you and me. We are the
bit of "dirt" to be purified, sanctified so as to be filled with
a completely clean unadulterated Spirit. Jesus washed the
physical feet of this disciples, but that was but a shadow the
real washing that needed to be done, the real removal of
physical shoes. No more dependence on the ways of the flesh!
Later after that day of Pentecost in Acts 2, the very shadow of
Peter was so holy that the mere passage of it over an unclean
person cleansed him. The old shadows are a type of something
better yet to come, but with the Holy Ghost the something better
is already here and working where it is both invited and then
allowed to work.
--- Quote ---
> was Moses in a place lower than heaven as he talked with god
upon the mountain?
> ----------------------------- OR
---------------------------------------------------------
> is where GOD is ; holy enough?
--- End Quote ---
Moses was in a heaven, or, at least, in a shadow of a heaven.
Anyone who really repents is in a heaven at that moment. There
are other heavens to enter. The Ark of Noah presents us with a
type or shadow of three heavens. Can we see the face of God
after we first repent? Moses was not allowed to see the face of
God. Are we?
--- Quote ---
> HEAVEN is a geological place ; in that the fallen angels left
it
> the geological location on earth where the garden of eden
existed still remains ;
> though the garden itself has been removed
> the body of mankind will always be carnal ; ------------- yet;
> we are called to become something new
--- End Quote ---
But... those who are, or are to become, the Body of Christ, are
to become what? Is that not the celestial Body of which Paul
speaks (I Cor 15:40)? It is surely not a physical body held
together by physical connections. Are not the connections to be
spiritual by and the through the Spirit of God? The Head is
already complete. The Body is in process. Jesus can see His
Father's face clearly, but not through physical eyes. God's
people, those who are really God's people, already have a
vision, but the vision is also a shadow. It is like onto
darkened glass.
The vision is unclear, but if we have receive the gift of the
Holy Ghost and we are not quenching that Spirit, as the work in
us progresses, the vision is getting clearer. When we see
perfectly through the eyes of Jesus then we will really see the
Father face to face (I Cor 13:12).
--- Quote ---
> imo; -------------------
> it becomes essential to see; the body will not be saved
> and thus; works done by the body will not be saved either
--- End Quote ---
The works, which count in the eyes of God are those accomplished
through faith (James 2:18). This is never accomplished by moving
in our own carnal ways, even with the best of purposes.
Similarly, by faith we will get the vision we need to really see
clearly.
--- Quote ---
> we all have sinned ; will sin exist in the new heaven ?
> will forgiven sin exist in the new heaven ?
--- End Quote ---
My viewpoint?
When we are with the Father in third heaven (if we make it),
there will be no sin because there can be no sin there. Once
there, we are no longer beasts. We have completley and finally
overcome the lust of eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride
of life (I John 2:16).
In second heaven only clean beasts are allowed. They have
received the Holy Ghost and are allowing themselves to be led by
the Holy Ghost. We as clean beasts have no sin, but we are still
beasts because we still have the ways of men, which when
followed will lead us to sin again. When we sin at this point,
which we can do by quenching the Spirit (I Thess 5:19), we are
thrust completely out of the camp again.
If we are in first heaven we are unclean beasts. We have
repented and have no sins, but without the Holy Ghost in us we
will sin again. When we do we will be put back outside of the
camp. If a person can repent, he can re-enter first heaven and
even second heaven...
The question to ask perhaps is how many times can we repeat
ourselves moving back and forth between the heavenly places and
the outer darkness?
--- Quote ---
> a parable in a story
> we want to go heaven in the end of time ;
> think of it as we want to go shopping ;
> we get in our car ( our body) and take off
> but when we get to the store ( heaven) what goes in ?
> does the car ( body) or do we get out of the car ( body) in
order for us ( new creation / soul-spirit) to go in?
--- End Quote ---
I see that the "time" to get to heaven should be before the end.
Remember the five virgins who had no oil in their lamps? They
are people who received the gift of Holy Ghost, but failed to
obtain regular proper nourishment for the "new man" within. That
new man needs to consume regularly the flesh (Word) and blood
(Spirit) of Jesus to grow properly. A person cannot receive the
baptism of the Holy Ghost and then simply sit on a pew
(figuratively or actually) at periodic intervals and expect to
be ready when the Bridegroom comes.
The Bridegroom comes to take us to His Father. We must be
properly prepared at all times. If we are not, we may be allowed
to repent, but eventually, we, like the natural children of
Israel in the wilderness will have the door to the promised land
(shadow of heaven) closed to us.
--- Quote ---
> There is a salvation for some very beastly creatures as we see
in the ark that carried them though the flood with Noah. What is
the difference between riding through the flood at the top of
the ark and riding through it at the bottom? Everyone gets to
move out of the ark, but what are they to be then?
>
> When we can accurately answer those questions, then we may
have a good idea of how things will be. Who can answer them
accurately without the lead of the Spirit?
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> note; the beastly creature that went through the flood ; still
died ( later)
> note; that spirit leading ; is that not the Holy Spirit in
which jesus sent to dwell in us ?
>
> putting it all together ;
>
> there are no shoes in heaven;
--- End Quote ---
Yes, eventually when there is no more "time", there will be no
first heaven nor second heaven in which to finally and fully
prepare ourselves. All who remain in the end of the matter will
see the Father face to face, but all of the beasts in man must
be dead. No one with a beastly nature will see the Father face
to face.
"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven
pillars:
She hath killed her beasts..." Prov 9:1-2
--- Quote ---
> let us go back to Moses as he was on-top the mountain ; and
GOD told him to take off his shoes
> now let us look at JESUS when he washed the disciples
feet.DID JESUS WASH THE FEET OF THE WHOLE WORLD? WHERE NOT THE
DISCIPLES TOLD THAT IF HE DIDN'T WASH THEIR FEET THEY WOULD NOT
BE HIS ? WERE NOT THE DISCIPLES TOLD THAT a person who is clean
need only wash their feet?
--- End Quote ---
The clean feet (the Holy Ghost) allow us walk where we must be
walk in order to be completely cleaned and purified. The Holy
Ghost will clean out the garbage (in 1st heaven) and lead us and
teach us, and remove the pathways (second heaven) leading to any
place other than to God (in third heaven).
Not all of those, who are called, pay attention to the call. Of
those who pay attention and come, some will not be willing to
the follow all of the way to the God's end (consider Judas as
one wrong end). More than clean feet are needed, but the
cleansing process is defined by God for each of us as dictated
by the Holy Ghost.
--- Quote ---
> the carnal is body and soul ; and he is unclean
> the works that he does ; are also a-pistos ( not of Gods
purpose)
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
this does not mean GOD disapproves of them or that they are not
intend by GOD for man to do them ; it means they are not pistos
; GOD'S intended works for bringing salvation to those who seek
to be of family with GOD.
> * taking out the garbage
> * painting the fence
> * eating ice cream
> **** none of these things are evil
--- End Quote ---
There are many ways of men that are not evil, but since all men
without God are effectively dead already, it is not only
necessary to avoid evil but to obtain LIFE.
--- Quote ---
> **** niether are they the way to bring about salvation for the
family of GOD
> THESE ARE THINGS THE CARNAL AND SPIRITUAL MAN DOES
> IF I DO THE ABOVE FOR SOMEONE ELSE ; are they good works?
> answer************** no ; they do not bring about salvation
for the family of GOD
> THEY ARE ; things that the body does
--- End Quote ---
A person can lead a "good" natural life, attempting within all
of his natural (God-given) ability to treat others well, but
still not attain salvation.
--- Quote ---
> both the believer as well as the non believer do these things
> `*`* A GOOD WORK MUST BE SOMETHING THAT A UN-BELIEVER CANNOT
DO
> `*`* A GOOD WORK MUST BE SOMETHING THAT THE BODY CANNOT DO
--- End Quote ---
The "GOOD WORKS" that an un-believer cannot do are those that
are not done by having faith toward God.
--- Quote ---
> A BELIEVER IS MADE CLEAN; by accepting what JESUS has done
> yet; he still must take off his shoes ; so that he feet can be
washed
> THIS IS ; removing the body
> THIS IS ; getting out of the car
> THIS MUST BE DONE ; before we "go in"
--- End Quote ---
To start the ball rolling once a person has been called by God,
he must remove his own shoes in order to walk with God. This
similar to but not the same as the graveclothes of Lazarus.
Jesus called Lazarus forth, but Jesus did not removed the
graveclothes.
--- Quote ---
> as to the leading of the HOLY SPIRIT
> is he ( the Holy Spirit) teaching us what the soon to be gone
heaven is like?
> SOUNDS KINDA 'A"-PISTOS TO ME
> or is he
......................................................
> PISTOS ; bringing to our minds that which is "family" business
?
--- End Quote ---
Once the graveclothes have been removed (by the ministers =other
men) and shoes are taken off (by the individual himself) the
person is prepared to go though the preparation to meet God face
to face.
Without being led by the Holy Ghost, no person will make it.
When our own graveclothes have been removed and we have taken
off our own shoes, while following the Holy Ghost, we will be
available to also help others as there is need and as God calls
on us to apply ourselves to such tasks.
We begin as babes and advance toward maturity to do whatever
jobs God has in mind for us. Eventually, we man be part of the
"mother" who teaches and nourishes. Our minds, must become
eventually the mind of Christ so that we will always know what
to do and when to do it. Jesus always did when he was the
minister. We are to be ministers now.
#Post#: 63--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
DIR By: alphaomega
Date: November 9, 2012, 6:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
hi John
this looks like the start of a very good conversation ;
because i wish to enjoy "every" piece of it i will respond back
"piece at a time"
--- Quote from: Amadeus link ---
>
> [quote]Our vision, when we have a vision includes in it,
heaven or even heavens.
>
> Heaven as I recently read may be an exalted position, either
for good or for bad. It is not a geographical location at all.
If we exalt ourselves, we ascend (even if only for a dreaming
moment) to a higher place. ?
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> alphaomega: don't get me wronh here ; for i like your post
>
> "but;"
>
> heaven is an exaltd position ?
--- End Quote ---
Look at what the natural man calls "heaven": the sky above. It
is exalted or elevated or above us in a physical sense, even as
our secular leaders are above us. They are exalted, but only
those who are elevated by God have a meanful lasting exalted
place.
[/quote]
there is that term again NATURAL MAN
WHEN WE SPEAK OF HEAVEN ; through the eyes of men
*** we should first concider the verse In the beginning God made
the heavens and the earth
AND NOTE; that man came afterwards
THEREFOR ; mankind has no effect as to what heaven is
THE TERM ; natural man
must convey that there is another kind of man
we often hear of this other kind of man spoken of as the
spiritual man
many and few
It should be noted when speaking of "THAT SPIRITUAL MAN " that
we are indeed speaking of very 'FEW"
imo;
the conversation goes to far when it jumps to the point as-if
all mankind has such a spiritual side
DO YOU AGREE? --------DO YOU SEE THE POINT?
#Post#: 64--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
DIR By: Amadeus
Date: November 9, 2012, 8:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> there is that term again NATURAL MAN
> WHEN WE SPEAK OF HEAVEN ; through the eyes of men
> *** we should first concider the verse In the beginning God
made the heavens and the earth
> AND NOTE; that man came afterwards
> THEREFOR ; mankind has no effect as to what heaven is
--- End Quote ---
No, no effect on heaven, but man thinks he has a serious impact
on most everything... much of his impact in his opinion is good.
If this material or natural world were the real world he might
be correct in a measure. In the real world of God this material
world consisting of men must appear to be nothing worth saving
(Sodom comes to mind) similar to a barren wasteland. God will
save those who sincerely submit themselves to Him.
--- Quote ---
> THE TERM ; natural man
> must convey that there is another kind of man
> we often hear of this other kind of man spoken of as the
spiritual man
> many and few
> It should be noted when speaking of "THAT SPIRITUAL MAN " that
we are indeed speaking of very 'FEW"
--- End Quote ---
Yes, most men we see with the natural eyes, IMHO, are dead to
God, so there would be "FEW". Paul speaks of the "old man" (dead
in sin) and the "new" or "inner man", who is filled with the
Life of which Jesus spoke. How many are really "born again" from
among the multitudes who claim it? How many really have an
"inner man"?
--- Quote ---
> imo;
> the conversation goes to far when it jumps to the point as-if
all mankind has such a spiritual side
>
> DO YOU AGREE? --------DO YOU SEE THE POINT?
--- End Quote ---
If darkness is the absence of Light then it is nothing. If death
is the absence of Life, then it also is nothing. Most of
mankind, IMHO, is dead and dark and nothing. I point no fingers
at anyone by name in this respect. I only observe that mankind,
even in the United States, which supposedly is more than 80%
Christian, bears very little resemblance to what I see as Jesus.
#Post#: 65--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
DIR By: alphaomega
Date: November 9, 2012, 9:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I ALWAYS LOVE OUR CONVERSATIONS
--- Quote from: Amadeus link ---
>
> [quote]there is that term again NATURAL MAN
> WHEN WE SPEAK OF HEAVEN ; through the eyes of men
> *** we should first concider the verse In the beginning God
made the heavens and the earth
> AND NOTE; that man came afterwards
> THEREFOR ; mankind has no effect as to what heaven is
--- End Quote ---
No, no effect on heaven, but man thinks he has a serious impact
on most everything... much of his impact in his opinion is good.
If this material or natural world were the real world he might
be correct in a measure. In the real world of God this material
world consisting of men must appear to be nothing worth saving
(Sodom comes to mind) similar to a barren wasteland. God will
save those who sincerely submit themselves to Him.
YEP
--- Quote ---
> THE TERM ; natural man
> must convey that there is another kind of man
> we often hear of this other kind of man spoken of as the
spiritual man
> many and few
> It should be noted when speaking of "THAT SPIRITUAL MAN " that
we are indeed speaking of very 'FEW"
--- End Quote ---
Yes, most men we see with the natural eyes, IMHO, are dead to
God, so there would be "FEW". Paul speaks of the "old man" (dead
in sin) and the "new" or "inner man", who is filled with the
Life of which Jesus spoke. How many are really "born again" from
among the multitudes who claim it? How many really have an
"inner man"?
MY POINT EXACTLY
--- Quote ---
> imo;
> the conversation goes to far when it jumps to the point as-if
all mankind has such a spiritual side
>
> DO YOU AGREE? --------DO YOU SEE THE POINT?
--- End Quote ---
If darkness is the absence of Light then it is nothing. If death
is the absence of Life, then it also is nothing. Most of
mankind, IMHO, is dead and dark and nothing. I point no fingers
at anyone by name in this respect. I only observe that mankind,
even in the United States, which supposedly is more than 80%
Christian, bears very little resemblance to what I see as Jesus.
[/quote]
If darkness is the absence of Light then it is nothing
LOL; i always challenge this ; when it comes to what the bible
is saying
no where in the bible does it say darkness is the absence of
light
to me; that concept is one of MAN impossing his own 'little bit
of knowledge" into saying what the bible says
heres my view ;
in the beginning was god
now god is spirit and there is no place else
to make 'heavens" he needs to make a space to contain it (
heaven)
THUS;
IN THE BEGINNING WAS GOD
and god created darkness
FOLLOWED BY ; and in the darkness ANGELS where created and dwell
so what makes darkness 'bad'?
it is the moving "out of its realm"
when darkness leaves the heaven it falls to earth
it is this "darkness" that is out of place and bad
for there are other ANGELS who remained in the darkness called
HEAVEN
"LIGHT" AS SEEN IN GENESIS ONE ;
is created for the world of mankind
this idea of moving out of ones assigned place
will be discussed further as i go into the next part of your
previous post
;D; again i so enjoy our talks
#Post#: 66--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
DIR By: Amadeus
Date: November 10, 2012, 3:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> If darkness is the absence of Light then it is nothing
> LOL; i always challenge this ; when it comes to what the bible
is saying
>
> no where in the bible does it say darkness is the absence of
light
--- End Quote ---
You are correct, even it also does not say that there is a
trinity.
The Bible does, however, speak of light (as well as darkness):
"Ye are the light of the world..." Matt 5:14
We are the light while Jesus is in us!
"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world" John
9:5
As long Jesus is in the world, the world being you, a world; and
me, a world; and someone else, a world!
--- Quote ---
> to me; that concept is one of MAN impossing his own 'little
bit of knowledge" into saying what the bible says
> heres my view ;
> in the beginning was god
> now god is spirit and there is no place else
> to make 'heavens" he needs to make a space to contain it (
heaven)
> THUS;
> IN THE BEGINNING WAS GOD
> and god created darkness
> FOLLOWED BY ; and in the darkness ANGELS where created and
dwell
--- End Quote ---
Where was man created? Was it a place of light or darkness? He
certainly moved into darkness after the fall. Was man able to
see God face to face before the fall? In any case we are not
after the fall and we are in darkness until...
"For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten
my darkness." Ps 18:28
But... David speaks here of his enemies, be they enemies within,
or without, or both:
"Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their
loins continually to shake." Ps 69:23
So then there are seemingly different levels of darkness and no
one should want to go toward darker places.
--- Quote ---
> so what makes darkness 'bad'?
> it is the moving "out of its realm"
>
> when darkness leaves the heaven it falls to earth
--- End Quote ---
I am not following your line of thought completely on this, but
I am answering anyway. God does exist even in the darker
recesses. For Him there is no difference between what we would
call dark or light, but for us there certainly is.
"Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and
judgment are the habitation of his throne." Ps 97:2
Will we, or can we, then as we progress, come to a point where
we are unaffected by light or dark like onto God?
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we
shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2
"And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle,
neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light:
and they shall reign for ever and ever." Rev 22:5
As to darkness "falling to earth", did it fall or was is it man
that fell into darkness when he disobeyed God?
--- Quote ---
> it is this "darkness" that is out of place and bad
--- End Quote ---
Considering that God created everything and all that He created
was "very good" (Gen 1:31), if darkness is indeed a thing rather
than the absence of a thing (light) then it would be evil only
because it was abused or misused. That is to say someone (man?)
put it to a purpose which perverted God's purpose within His
order.
--- Quote ---
> for there are other ANGELS who remained in the darkness
called HEAVEN
--- End Quote ---
Is this a real heaven that is darkness or is it a false or evil
heaven such as I mentioned in a previous post, a heaven made by
man for man's own purposes to please man rather than to please
God?
--- Quote ---
> "LIGHT" AS SEEN IN GENESIS ONE ;
> is created for the world of mankind
--- End Quote ---
Is it created for this purpose? Why do you believe that?
There is the first day:
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the
light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.
And the evening and the morning were the first day." Gen 1:3-5
And then there is the fourth day:
"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the
day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars
also.
And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light
upon the earth,
And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the
light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good." Gen
1:16-18
#Post#: 67--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heaven/Revelation21-22
DIR By: alphaomega
Date: November 10, 2012, 5:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
with such honest conversation ; john you are spoiling me
these are the conversations that this forum is indeeded to bring
out ;D
--- Quote from: Amadeus link ---
>
> [quote]If darkness is the absence of Light then it is nothing
> LOL; i always challenge this ; when it comes to what the bible
is saying
>
> no where in the bible does it say darkness is the absence of
light
--- End Quote ---
You are correct, even it also does not say that there is a
trinity.
The Bible does, however, speak of light (as well as darkness):
"Ye are the light of the world..." Matt 5:14
We are the light while Jesus is in us!
"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world" John
9:5
As long Jesus is in the world, the world being you, a world; and
me, a world; and someone else, a world!
[/quote]
me a world ; you a world; someone else a world BUT ; what makes
us a light?
AS LONG AS I AM THE WORLD ; i am the light
no one else is the light of the world until JESUS LEAVES THIS
WORLD AND .......................
"Ye are the light of the world..." Matt 5:14
THAT LIGHT IS TRANSFERED
we see JESUS talking with "some" not all of the world
it is the ones who are believing and listening to him that will
get that 'LIGHT"
WHAT IS THAT LIGHT IN "US" ?
is it not the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT?
We are the light while Jesus is in us!
HOW CAN WE SAY Jesus in us; without seeing JESUS and the HOLY
SPIRIT are one?
---------- OR DO YOU HAVE other comments on how this is so?
GOOD STUFF JOHN ; I BROKE THIS APART in case we go further with
it
i didn't want to take away from the rest of the good stuff { in
your post}
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