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#Post#: 1614--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Gregory Date: February 24, 2023, 10:48 am
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[quote author=Val link=topic=54.msg1604#msg1604 date=1677247693]
I'll fetch back to you later Gregory about why ;D
[/quote]
Val, I'd prefer a straight answer to my earlier question about
whether JW's, including your wife, consider people like Leslie,
Steve and myself as Christians. Please, that's a reasonable
question for a straight response.
In fact, here's that original post quoted:
"A little favour, in fact. Tell your wife, or any JW you know,
that one member of this forum is a Catholic (Leslie), another
(Steve) is an Anglican and a third (myself) a Methodist. We try
to be good with other people, help them when we can, support
causes which help the poor and others, etc. Then ask the person
whether we are Christians or not. I suspect the answer will be
negative (If it's positive, it would contradict the teachings of
the JW society.)"
Thanks in advance.
#Post#: 1615--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Leslie Date: February 24, 2023, 11:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Roses link=topic=54.msg1611#msg1611
date=1677256798]
[quote author=Leslie link=topic=54.msg1606#msg1606
date=1677249946]
As the only Jr.member here, although , I have been here longer
than most, it does show me how I am regarded by Val.
Are you sure that being a 'five star' general, er -
Administrator; hasn't gone to your head, Val.
[/quote]
What unpleasant remarks you have made about Val. >:( You are a
junior member because you have a lot less posts than others.
[/quote]
Talking about your unpleasant remarks about people who have
religious beliefs. You really take the cake Roses. I don't know
how you have got the nerve to do so. Talk about calling the
kettle black, you should be ashamed of yourself. Thank goodness
you are not the Administrator, or I would run a mile to escape.
#Post#: 1616--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Beverly Date: February 24, 2023, 11:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Gregory link=topic=54.msg1614#msg1614
date=1677257290]
Val, I'd prefer a straight answer to my earlier question about
whether JW's, including your wife, consider people like Leslie,
Steve and myself as Christians. Please, that's a reasonable
question for a straight response.[/quote]
Two things regarding this:
First, you mention Leslie but even Leslie would admit that one
cannot be dispatched immediately to heaven if one is not
Catholic. So, I'm not sure what your point is in grouping Leslie
in with you and Steve. (PS you left me out. ;D )
Second, my JW cousin made a point to tell me after my son passed
that he believes my son is in Heaven because of God's grace. I
was surprised at this as my son had turned his back on
Christianity altogether (except for mine, he would say, but he
struggled with not being able to believe in God.) All other
Christian (mainly Evangelical) family members believe he's in
Hell now, and have been uncomfortably distant with me since.
This has been very painful for me, I might add since we're
discussing in part what it is to be a true Christian.) He has
also in the past been adamant that he believes I will be in
heaven with he and his wife because of my love for Jesus and
others. It is possible he was motivated by his love for me, but
a quick peak at a Wiki article on JW's, I found this:
"Regarding whether non-Witnesses will be "saved", they believe
that Jesus has the responsibility of judging such ones, and that
no human can judge for themselves who will be saved. Based on
their interpretation of Acts 24:15, they believe there will be a
resurrection of righteous and unrighteous people. They believe
that non-Witnesses alive now may attain salvation if they "begin
to serve God"."
#Post#: 1617--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: guest8 Date: February 24, 2023, 11:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Leslie link=topic=54.msg1615#msg1615
date=1677258338]
[quote author=Roses link=topic=54.msg1611#msg1611
date=1677256798]
[quote author=Leslie link=topic=54.msg1606#msg1606
date=1677249946]
As the only Jr.member here, although , I have been here longer
than most, it does show me how I am regarded by Val.
Are you sure that being a 'five star' general, er -
Administrator; hasn't gone to your head, Val.
[/quote]
What unpleasant remarks you have made about Val. >:( You are a
junior member because you have a lot less posts than others.
[/quote]
Talking about your unpleasant remarks about people who have
religious beliefs. You really take the cake Roses. I don't know
how you have got the nerve to do so. Talk about calling the
kettle black, you should be ashamed of yourself. Thank goodness
you are not the Administrator, or I would run a mile to escape.
[/quote]
I don't pretend to be perfect by any means, but I do believe
that religious beliefs should make one a better person, not
worse, which is not always the case.
#Post#: 1622--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Gregory Date: February 24, 2023, 12:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Beverly link=topic=54.msg1616#msg1616
date=1677258835]
[quote author=Gregory link=topic=54.msg1614#msg1614
date=1677257290]
Val, I'd prefer a straight answer to my earlier question about
whether JW's, including your wife, consider people like Leslie,
Steve and myself as Christians. Please, that's a reasonable
question for a straight response.[/quote]
Two things regarding this:
First, you mention Leslie but even Leslie would admit that one
cannot be dispatched immediately to heaven if one is not
Catholic. So, I'm not sure what your point is in grouping Leslie
in with you and Steve. (PS you left me out. ;D )
Second, my JW cousin made a point to tell me after my son passed
that he believes my son is in Heaven because of God's grace. I
was surprised at this as my son had turned his back on
Christianity altogether (except for mine, he would say, but he
struggled with not being able to believe in God.) All other
Christian (mainly Evangelical) family members believe he's in
Hell now, and have been uncomfortably distant with me since.
This has been very painful for me, I might add since we're
discussing in part what it is to be a true Christian.) He has
also in the past been adamant that he believes I will be in
heaven with he and his wife because of my love for Jesus and
others. It is possible he was motivated by his love for me, but
a quick peak at a Wiki article on JW's, I found this:
"Regarding whether non-Witnesses will be "saved", they believe
that Jesus has the responsibility of judging such ones, and that
no human can judge for themselves who will be saved. Based on
their interpretation of Acts 24:15, they believe there will be a
resurrection of righteous and unrighteous people. They believe
that non-Witnesses alive now may attain salvation if they "begin
to serve God"."
[/quote]
In the first place Bev, I'm asking Val for a response to my
question given his direct connection with JW's (ie. his wife and
co-religionists.) I'd prefer to keep my query directly within
those bounds. And your comment about Leslie is not really
pertinent to my query. Again, I'm simply asking Val whether a
Catholic, an Anglican and a Methodist count as Christians for
the JW's based on his own direct experience of them, that's all.
Oh, and I left you out because I'm not sure what denomination
you belong to, if any. ;)
Secondly, your JW cousin's comment is heartening but has no
official backing from the JW authorities (the Governing Body) in
their Brooklyn HQ. Moreover, the JW's don't believe in the
survival of the person after death (there's no innate 'soul' for
them), so there's no question of being in heaven or in some
other afterlife.
Thirdly, on your section beginning "Regarding whether...",
there's a mistake here. They don't believe in the resurrection
of the non-JW's as they don't believe in the existence of hell
so there is nothing to resurrect them for, not that they have a
soul to revive anyway (previous paragraph). They are simply
eternally destroyed.
As for: "They believe that non-Witnesses alive now may attain
salvation if they begin to serve God." That's to say, only if
they become Jehovah's Witnesses.
#Post#: 1623--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Beverly Date: February 24, 2023, 1:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough, Greg. I'll bow out.
Re my cousin, then he is being kind, bless him. I also would not
be surprised if deep down he's a lot like me and believes in the
core of Jesus' teachings but leaves a LOT to God. Honestly, if a
person's salvation in any religion depends entirely on the
person accepting all the religion's requirements for salvation
or heaven, I doubt many would qualify. I think it's human nature
to just set aside the things we can't fully understand or accept
and to grasp onto the simple truths of salvation by God's grace
through the cross of Christ.
#Post#: 1626--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Gregory Date: February 24, 2023, 1:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I always value your thoughtful, intelligent contributions
highly, Bev, so no need to bow out at all. I simply wanted to
pin Val down on certain specifics.
I'm increasingly rethinking much of my own approach to faith and
the set-in-stone structures of established ecclesiastical
formulae and practices. (One of my heroes of the faith is
Kierkegaard, the Danish anti-church lone wolf and one of the
founders of Christian existentialism.) Hamlet says to his friend
Horatio, "There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio,
than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Substitute 'religion'
for 'philosophy' and there will be many such surprises when all
is ultimately revealed.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B8ren_Kierkegaard
#Post#: 1636--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Val Date: February 24, 2023, 4:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Leslie link=topic=54.msg1606#msg1606
date=1677249946]
As the only Jr.member here, although , I have been here longer
than most, it does show me how I am regarded by Val.
Are you sure that being a 'five star' general, er -
Administrator; hasn't gone to your head, Val.
[/quote]
Leslie, the rating of thaddeans is autonatic and will change as
the person replies or creates more topics, it's nothing to do
with me, the administrator handle is given automatically to
whomsoever setup the forum, as I stated at the start of this
forum I won't continue to do this indefinitely someone else here
will take over in the future, everyone here is equal.
#Post#: 1660--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Val Date: February 25, 2023, 6:02 am
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I'm going south west for the weekend, herindoors and I, but for
Gregoria I talked with my wife this morning after her zoom
meeting with other witnesses.
Here is what she said.
Based on her understanding of the scriptures, all humanity have
the same possibility of everlasting life depending on how they
live their lives, it is not for her or anyone to say otherwise
and that all who follow and try to emulate the life of Jesus can
call themselves Christian, and that all JW's are not
automatically saved just because they attend meetings, and thats
about it, I asked about myself and it's the same story according
to JW it will depend on myself and God as we're the only ones
who know my heart.
But they don't believe that everyone goes to heaven just 144,000
and nobody know who will be chosen for that, everyone else
resurrected back on earth
Hopefully that's enough Gregory
#Post#: 1661--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Gregory Date: February 25, 2023, 6:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm afraid it certainly isn't, Val. Having read a lot around the
subject, (and there is evidently a certain confusion amongst
rank and file JW's), those who are not converted to "Jehovah's
organisation" will die at Armageddon. (Later: See the newly
added link at the bottom, it's absolutely vital to this
discussion.) It is all down to what the Governing Body in
Brooklyn decrees and dictates, and their word is final. The
undeniable fact is that all the churches of Christendom
(ie.literally all the churches worldwide) are condemned as
deviant and non-Christian with only "Jehovah's" authentic
followers surviving at the end time.
Again, I simply asked if we non-JW's, but still Christian
believers, are indeed Christians or not, but any well-meaning
responses from ordinary members are simply not in accord with
the official line. And anyway, if (quote) "all humanity have the
same possibility of everlasting life depending on how they live
their lives...and all who follow and try to emulate the life of
Jesus can call themselves Christian", then what's the point in
converting to the JW's? That means anyone can be saved by those
criteria, not just JW's, but - once again - that is certainly
not the official teaching of the Watchtower society
As for the question of the 144,000, that's a totally bizarre
interpretation of Revelation 7:4-8, (not shared by anyone else)
taking that number literally while accepting that the individual
numbers of the twelve tribes are symbolic, which shows
inconsistency and theological confusion, not to mention totally
ignoring the profound richness of biblical exegesis and theology
through the ages. Just to add that out of friendship with some
local JW's (and obviously my desire to convince them of the true
Christian message), I attended one of their 'memorial services',
their version of the mass, but only celebrated once a year near
Easter. It was chilling to see the cup of wine and the bread
passed along and only allowed to be taken by those who felt
themselves one of the chosen 144,000. (Nobody took them during
my visit.)
I don't think there's really much more to say on the subject, is
there? Except perhaps to say that your lovely wife sounds like a
warm, generous person. Lucky man!
Added later:
I've found this link on the question of who is saved (only
JW's?) It's very long but puts the whole question precisely in
JW perspective. Just read the first few sections if it seems too
long, but the evidence is clear.
HTML https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/salvation-only-for-jehovahs-witnesses.php
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