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#Post#: 1433--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Stephen Horsfall Date: February 21, 2023, 6:39 am
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Another thing about JWs, which I first mentioned years ago on
Thads or Sparrows: unlike every major Christian denomination,
they do not have any practical social programmes to feed the
hungry, house the homeless, care for the sick, etc., in response
to Matthew 25:35-40.
#Post#: 1441--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Beverly Date: February 21, 2023, 9:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I do believe the JW religion is a misguided one with their
beliefs about blood transfusions and the intense focus on end
times (which Evangelicals are doing more and more over here now
too.) But, having said that, I also believe that faith is a very
personal matter of the heart and can be judged only by God. For
example, if someone chooses to die rather than have a blood
transfusion because they truly believe this is God's will, then
I believe God does not judge them for this. I would cite Romans
14:1-3 "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment
on his opinions. For one person has faith to eat all things,
while another, who is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who
eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the
one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does,
for God has accepted him.…"
[quote author=Steve link=topic=54.msg1433#msg1433
date=1676983145]
Another thing about JWs, which I first mentioned years ago on
Thads or Sparrows: unlike every major Christian denomination,
they do not have any practical social programmes to feed the
hungry, house the homeless, care for the sick, etc., in response
to Matthew 25:35-40.
[/quote]
My cousin's wife volunteers with the elderly, but I don't know
if this is sponsored by the JWs. She's known for her caring
spirit, and also rescues animals.
#Post#: 1446--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Gregory Date: February 21, 2023, 12:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Beverly link=topic=54.msg1441#msg1441
date=1676994403]
I also believe that faith is a very personal matter of the
heart and can be judged only by God. For example, if someone
chooses to die rather than have a blood transfusion because they
truly believe this is God's will, then I believe God does not
judge them for this.
[/quote]
I've never believed that they would be judged by God. I just
believe that they have died an unnecessary death due to an
absurd interpretation of an Old Testament text (as I said in a
previous post) when their lives could have been saved by a
normal medical practice accepted by Christians of all
denominations. As for their believing that it is God's will, in
my experience (research, talking to JW's and information from an
ex-JW with ministerial post turned Christian pastor) it is
mainly a question of obedience, accepting the authority of the
leaders of the organisation who were (in the past) and are now
responsible for promulgating such doctrines. Some members may
see that as God's will; ie.obey the authorities.
#Post#: 1450--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Beverly Date: February 21, 2023, 3:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I agree, Greg, but the older I get the more I see pretty much
all Christianity has aspects of this (as well as other
religions.)
Speaking of, my cousins wife once told me that they believe
modern medicine uses blood transfusions too often unnecessarily,
that there are ways to perform surgeries without relying on it,
but most doctors just don't want to. I thought it was
interesting she was justifying their decision on this also based
on science.
#Post#: 1517--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Val Date: February 22, 2023, 5:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
First off I am not trying to defend Russell or the JW’s
organisation but there are many truths about the man and the
organisation that have been falsified
JW’s are possibly one of the most disliked of the modern
Christian religious organisation because of their stance on
Blood/Birthdays/Christmas and so many more.
They do donate to charities but mostly when it is practicable to
do so, they have sent workers to help rebuild after earthquakes
and floods these would be tradesmen and engineers who donate
their time freely to help, not so much sending money as they
know most of that goes into the organisation of the aid before
it gets to the cause, they do not advertise these charitable
works.
Now for anyone really interested to check for themselves there
is ample evidence to show that Russell did not perjure himself
in court – because he never claimed to be a Greek or Hebrew
expert.
That court case was brought by Charles Russell against a
Canadian Baptist minister J. J. Ross for criminal libel. Ross
had written and published a leaflet attacking Russell's
integrity as a religious leader and calling him a liar and
self-appointed pastor when in fact his congregation had elected
him as their pastor, anyways Ross tried to make a fool of
Russell to bolster his claim and show Russell in poor light.
Russell stated that he had in a small way when he was young
studied and had the ability to recognize Greek words in Strong's
and Young's concordances of the Bible but although he said he
could repeat the Greek letters from memory but might not
recognise them all on text
After the court case Ross wrote a second booklet entitled Some
Facts and More Facts about the
Self-Styled "Pastor" Charles T. Russell, in which he accused
Russell of having committed perjury
Ross gives the following version of what supposedly occurred in
a Hamilton magistrate's
courtroom on March 13, 1913.
Question: (Attorney Staunton) - "Do you know the Greek?"
Answer: (Russell) - "Oh yes."
At this point Russell was handed a copy of Westcott and Hort's
Greek New Testament and
asked to read the letters of the alphabet as they appeared on
the top of page 447. Russell
did not even know the Greek alphabet. Counsellor Staunton
continued -
Question: (Counsellor Staunton) - "Now, are you familiar with
the Greek?"
Answer: (Russell) "No."
Here is conclusive evidence, the "Pastor" under oath perjured
himself beyond
question.
This is what was actually asked in that court room
Question: "Do you know the Greek alphabet?"
Answer: "Oh, Yes."
Question: "Can you tell me the correct letters if you see them?"
Answer: "Some of them, I might make a mistake on some of them."
Question: "Would you tell me the names of the letters of those
on the top of
the page, page 447 I have got here [from Westcott and Hort]?"
Answer: "Well, I don't know that I would be able to."
Question: "You can't tell what those letters are, look at them
and see if you
know."
Answer: "My way ..." [At this point he was interrupted by the
court and
not allowed to explain.]
Enough of Russell
As I said earlier Jehovah’s Witnesses are honest hardworking
Christians and no matter what people might say they are
Christians, to be Christian you must follow and try in as much
as possible to mirror the life and work of Jesus Christ,
Jehovah’s Witnesses try and do this in their daily work and when
they go door to door or, they do not ask for money or that you
convert they just try and get the message across and then leave
it up to the individual to make contact, having only 8 million
adherents is not really important.
I have been happily living with one of JW’s for over 40 years
and in all that time I have never felt that I was under pressure
from the elders of the church to attend meetings or take
literature, but like many religious organisations there are
individuals that try by any means to convert people in the
belief that they are saving them, these have been mostly weeded
out over the years, the church of Jehovah’s Witnesses is
evolving like all religious organisations and as they say bible
messages become clearer, like all entities religion must evolve
or die out.
Greg you mentioned the trinity as one reason why JW’s are not
Christian.
The trinity doctrine put forward by Tertullian early third
century but wasn’t accepted until the late fourth century, so
the followers of Jesus in their lifetime didn’t preach it and it
is not in any of the bible texts, similarly with the devotion to
Jesus mother Mary in the last few hundred years she has become
more venerated than God or Jesus in the eyes of many religions.
Sorry for the mishmash of the above text, but this is late at
night and I haven't had my single malt yet
#Post#: 1528--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Gregory Date: February 23, 2023, 3:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, let's let Russell rest in peace, shall we? Whichever
transcript of the court case is correct, the fact is that he was
not proficient in New Testament Greek (recognising a few letters
is not enough), which is essential for anyone writing 'a Study
in Scriptures' as he did.
You claim that the JW's are Christians as they follow the
teachings of Jesus Christ (which I would dispute, but let's
leave that aside for now), and yet they dismiss the billion
Christians in the world in all the churches as non-Christians.
Moreover, they label them (as I said earlier) 'the daughters of
Babylon' destined for destruction at Armageddon. Are you and the
JW's you know happy with the thought that only the 8 million or
so JW's in the world today will survive while 8 billion human
beings in all will perish because they aren't JW's? And let's be
realistic; that's what the 'organisation' teaches, no matter how
much you and the others would like to ignore the fact. So,
"having only 8 million adherents" is very important if the rest
of humanity is doomed.
"...the church of Jehovah’s Witnesses is evolving like all
religious organisations and as they say bible messages become
clearer, like all entities religion must evolve or die out."
In the first place, they reject the word 'church' so let's get
our terminology right. They're an 'organisation' in their words.
Secondly, if they are the only 'channel of God's word' to the
world since 1870,then you would expect God to have made sure
they had the right teachings from the start and not all the
constant changes and reinterpretations (and different dates for
the end) since then. I know they use Proverbs 4:18 to justify
their 'evolution' "The path of the righteous is like the morning
sun, shining ever brighter till the full light of day" but that
has nothing to do with evolving doctrine. It is about the
spiritual development of those who trust in God, contrasted with
those in verse 19: "But the way of the wicked is like deep
darkness; they do not know what makes them stumble." That's just
typical of the way the JW's distort the meaning of Scripture for
their own ends.
As for your take on the Trinity, it is quite wrong, as if only
one person was responsible for introducing it while the reality
is that it had been developing over the centuries, implicit in
the Old Testament and more explicit in the gospel of John and
the writings of the early church fathers from the 1st century
onwards (see the link below.) The JW's say that Jesus Christ was
originally the archangel Michael and Mary may be venerated,
rightly or wrongly, but she is not worshipped, but those are
other issues. (Let's not overload!)
I'll leave it there for now...
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
#Post#: 1532--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Val Date: February 23, 2023, 5:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Morning Gregory from a very bright really bright but cool Dublin
temp here is 6c but feels like 15 in our sunroom in sunlight.
Ok enough of the JW's let them rest in peace and in their belief
that they have the correct translation of the scriptures
whatever that is.
I have read and reread the bible over these many long years in
search of "I don't know what" but to set my mind at ease
regarding a powerful God who created life the universe and
everything, and from this I am very sure that the scriptures do
not point to a 3 person God, I have to accept that none of the
apostles stated this in any of their writings and neither did
the early followers of Jesus, this idea too over 200 years to
develop after his death.
To my belief the idea of the trinity comes from the triune gods
of Egypt, Sumeria and Babylonia, but if you can provide biblical
evidence to the contrary I would be very interested.
Wikipedia has changed over the last few years and is no longer
taken seriously, it is not the centre of scientific knowledge or
of Biblical truths, I wouldn't use it for serious research
#Post#: 1537--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Gregory Date: February 23, 2023, 7:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Val link=topic=54.msg1532#msg1532 date=1677151932]
I have read and reread the bible over these many long years in
search of "I don't know what" but to set my mind at ease
regarding a powerful God who created life the universe and
everything, and from this I am very sure that the scriptures do
not point to a 3 person God, I have to accept that none of the
apostles stated this in any of their writings and neither did
the early followers of Jesus, this idea too over 200 years to
develop after his death.
To my belief the idea of the trinity comes from the triune gods
of Egypt, Sumeria and Babylonia, but if you can provide biblical
evidence to the contrary I would be very interested.
Wikipedia has changed over the last few years and is no longer
taken seriously, it is not the centre of scientific knowledge or
of Biblical truths, I wouldn't use it for serious research
[/quote]
Ok, Val, I'd say you are being evasive about all this, and why?
Because apart from thinking you haven't read nearly enough about
this in general, your opinion about " I have to accept that none
of the apostles stated this in any of their writings and neither
did the early followers of Jesus, this idea too over 200 years
to develop after his death" is just your uninformed opinion, and
furthermore totally inaccurate. Anyone with an open mind would
at least look at other perspectives, but not you. It's easy to
discredit Wikipedia when it suits you, isn't it, although the
content is actually historically factual, not biased. As for
that nonsense about the triune gods of Egypt, that so evidently
comes from the JW's laughable excuse for theological erudition,
most of them at a level of education in those fields (and in
general) bordering on a joke, that it's hardly worth serious
consideration, sorry.
Still, leaving all that aside, what disturbs me most is that you
have still not addressed the fact that the JW organisation
preaches that all the non-JW's (you know, only 8 billion) will
die at Armageddon. Please give me some response to that
overwhelmingly horrendous fact (and you are obviously a future
victim yourself, Val! Herindoors happy with that?) and the
dialogue may continue. If not let's have a rest (and perhaps a
single malt... ;)
#Post#: 1549--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Beverly Date: February 23, 2023, 8:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Gregory link=topic=54.msg1537#msg1537
date=1677159297]
Ok, Val, I'd say you are being evasive about all this, and why?
Because apart from thinking you haven't read nearly enough about
this in general, your opinion about " I have to accept that none
of the apostles stated this in any of their writings and neither
did the early followers of Jesus, this idea too over 200 years
to develop after his death" is just your uninformed opinion, and
furthermore totally inaccurate.[/quote]
To be fair to Val, Greg, he did ask for Biblical evidence of the
Trinity. He is correct that there is none. There is a lot to
counter it even like Jesus always referring to God as his father
and calling himself the "Son of God," or the "Son of Man." I did
an extensive research on the Trinity very early in my adult
Christian walk, and I was astounded to have found nothing to
support the Trinity Doctrine. Even more, there is nothing in the
Bible that requires a belief in Jesus as God in order to be
saved. Jesus and Paul make it very clear we are saved by God's
grace provided to us through the Cross of Christ.
To argue that millions of Christians for millennia professing
the Trinity doesn't persuade when the many Christians prior to
the Council of Nicaea who did not accept the Trinity were
slaughtered as heretics!
For me personally, I believe it doesn't matter as the Gospels
and Epistles assure us of our salvation if we repent and follow
Jesus as our Savior.
Ironically, before I did this study--and what prompted it in the
first place--I invited a JW young woman (we were the same age at
the time) into my kitchen so we could discuss our faiths. She
was very sincere and said she could not believe in the Trinity
because it wasn't in the Bible, but she also couldn't even
understand such a concept of God himself dying on a cross. I
told her that my understanding was that the heavenly Trinity is
similar to the triune nature of humans. We are one but comprised
of a body, a mind, and a spirit. She was able to see how this
could explain it, but to her credit she still needed proof from
the Bible.
#Post#: 1552--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Val Date: February 23, 2023, 10:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Gregory link=topic=54.msg1537#msg1537
date=1677159297]
[quote author=Val link=topic=54.msg1532#msg1532 date=1677151932]
I have read and reread the bible over these many long years in
search of "I don't know what" but to set my mind at ease
regarding a powerful God who created life the universe and
everything, and from this I am very sure that the scriptures do
not point to a 3 person God, I have to accept that none of the
apostles stated this in any of their writings and neither did
the early followers of Jesus, this idea too over 200 years to
develop after his death.
To my belief the idea of the trinity comes from the triune gods
of Egypt, Sumeria and Babylonia, but if you can provide biblical
evidence to the contrary I would be very interested.
Wikipedia has changed over the last few years and is no longer
taken seriously, it is not the centre of scientific knowledge or
of Biblical truths, I wouldn't use it for serious research
[/quote]
Ok, Val, I'd say you are being evasive about all this, and why?
Because apart from thinking you haven't read nearly enough about
this in general, your opinion about " I have to accept that none
of the apostles stated this in any of their writings and neither
did the early followers of Jesus, this idea too over 200 years
to develop after his death" is just your uninformed opinion, and
furthermore totally inaccurate. Anyone with an open mind would
at least look at other perspectives, but not you. It's easy to
discredit Wikipedia when it suits you, isn't it, although the
content is actually historically factual, not biased. As for
that nonsense about the triune gods of Egypt, that so evidently
comes from the JW's laughable excuse for theological erudition,
most of them at a level of education in those fields (and in
general) bordering on a joke, that it's hardly worth serious
consideration, sorry.
Still, leaving all that aside, what disturbs me most is that you
have still not addressed the fact that the JW organisation
preaches that all the non-JW's (you know, only 8 billion) will
die at Armageddon. Please give me some response to that
overwhelmingly horrendous fact (and you are obviously a future
victim yourself, Val! Herindoors happy with that?) and the
dialogue may continue. If not let's have a rest (and perhaps a
single malt... ;)
[/quote]
Afternoon Gregory.
What JW's believe or not is not important to me as I am not a
follower of their doctrine, if Jehovah's Witnesses believe that
I'll be destroyed along with the rest of the unbelieving 8
billion then that is their problem not mine, I am not now nor
have I ever been a preacher for them, its just that it irks me
when people accept without research untruths/half-truths or
what ever about them, I'd be the same about the Catholic Church
which is why Leslie and I have some ongoing banter.
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