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#Post#: 1352--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: guest6 Date: February 20, 2023, 2:43 am
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[quote author=Leslie link=topic=54.msg1344#msg1344
date=1676847474]
How can you have two opposing truths, as on may be right and the
other wrong, or vice versa. Or both can be wrong , but they
cannot both be right.
[/quote]
Isn't that the problem with religion though?
How do you know which truth is the "right" truth if you are
looking for that?
In the end, a lot of people arrive at religion via a mixture of
their parents/geography/social setting.
I am marginally more impressed by people who adopt a new
religion as they at least are showing a willingness to change
their mindset, this discounts those who have been indoctrinated
by devious means, of course.
One thing is for sure I cannot believe any religious person who
stands in front of me and says mine is the "true, correct path"
when so many others have different true, correct paths.
There is a Bertrand Russell quote that expresses my thoughts
more succinctly:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of
doubts.”
This applies just as much to religion as it does to any other
area of life.
#Post#: 1353--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: guest8 Date: February 20, 2023, 3:01 am
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Where religion is concerned the more right a person thinks they
are the more wrong they are likely to be.
#Post#: 1358--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Stephen Horsfall Date: February 20, 2023, 3:26 am
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[quote author=Roses link=topic=54.msg1353#msg1353
date=1676883672]
Where religion is concerned the more right a person thinks they
are the more wrong they are likely to be.
[/quote]Your own views on religion are very firmly held and
unequivocally stated, so presumably you are probably wrong,
according to your own rule.
#Post#: 1359--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Leslie Date: February 20, 2023, 4:34 am
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The early church believed that their way was the only true path,
and against all the odds stuck to their beliefs. The western
world has been shaped by their beliefs.
They had tremendous faith that they were right and the others
all wrong. And they fought tooth and nail to insist upon it.
Take the Arian heresy for example. They believed that there was
no God Head, but believed everything else about Christ, except
for that. Christ was to Arians an inspired man but not in the
Trinity.
At the Council of Nicea the bishops gathered together to assert
the truth. Athanasius, Patriarch of Alexandria , (Egypt) decided
the issue for the Church. That was in 325 A.D. And I do believe
that Constantine the Emperor was not amused as Athanasius would
not allow Arius to receive Communion.Constantine sent him to
Gaul as punishment. These so called little things determined the
future of mankind.it is by Divine Providence that the Catholic
Church survived these attacks upon its integrity. Today, we have
an attack called Modernism which will be defeated in the
fullness of time.
As Greg pointed out a mid century religious group that claims
the salvation of mankind. The JWs cannot possibly be right.
#Post#: 1360--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: guest8 Date: February 20, 2023, 5:36 am
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[quote author=Steve link=topic=54.msg1358#msg1358
date=1676885170]
[quote author=Roses link=topic=54.msg1353#msg1353
date=1676883672]
Where religion is concerned the more right a person thinks they
are the more wrong they are likely to be.
[/quote]
Your own views on religion are very firmly held and
unequivocally stated, so presumably you are probably wrong,
according to your own rule.
[/quote]
I am agnostic. A deity could exist but if that is so there is no
undisputable data to prove that is so, however much religious
people want to believe it to be true.
#Post#: 1363--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Stephen Horsfall Date: February 20, 2023, 7:14 am
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[quote author=Roses link=topic=54.msg1360#msg1360
date=1676893017]
I am agnostic. A deity could exist but if that is so there is no
undisputable data to prove that is so, however much religious
people want to believe it to be true.
[/quote]That is a completely irrelevant comment.
#Post#: 1383--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Beverly Date: February 20, 2023, 11:27 am
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I have a first cousin who is, with his wife, a JW. I would
describe both the say way Val has described his wife.
Their kindness was particularly evident when my son passed. They
reached out with comfort and prayers for months afterwards and
have only recently settled back into our normal routine of
family contact.
Are they Christian? If God judges based on faith in him, then I
would say they are far better Christians than many who actually
use the term (especially those who justify un-loving behavior
towards others.)
[quote author=Leslie link=topic=54.msg1359#msg1359
date=1676889264]
The early church believed that their way was the only true path,
and against all the odds stuck to their beliefs. The western
world has been shaped by their beliefs.
They had tremendous faith that they were right and the others
all wrong. And they fought tooth and nail to insist upon it.
Take the Arian heresy for example. They believed that there was
no God Head, but believed everything else about Christ, except
for that. Christ was to Arians an inspired man but not in the
Trinity.
[/quote]
I'll never believe God ordained the slaughter of people of
differing faiths. They slaughtered an entire people, 20,000
Albigensians because they believed very much the same as the
Arians.
HTML https://www.britannica.com/event/Massacre-at-Beziers
#Post#: 1385--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Gregory Date: February 20, 2023, 12:01 pm
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It's the chicken/egg problem - which comes first? Are such kind,
generous people as described here such because of their
religious beliefs, or are they naturally those kind of warm
people who happen to be drawn to a particular religion? (Think
of the countless numbers of people of such altruistic character
who are not religious, even atheist.) I really doubt whether the
religion comes first and somehow causes an ethical
transformation in its adepts. There are Catholics, Orthodox,
Protestants of many denominations, as well as the other main
religions, who are wonderfully good people (as we understand the
term) and many others of those religions who are plainly not.
The fact remains that the JW's are an exclusivist, 19th century
offshoot of mainstream Christianity with an emphasis on
eschatology and the imminent (date after false date) end of the
world and a total repudiation of all the Christian churches
("the daughters of Babylon" as they call them.) At Armageddon
(always just around the corner) the 8 million or so JW's in the
world today (just 0.1% of the total world population) will
survive and pass into 'the new world' while the rest of humanity
will perish. If the JW's, good people as many of them may well
be, can live with that (and many of those who perish will
obviously be unconverted members of their own families or
friends) then there's something well out of moral kilter there
at very least.
Added later:
Then there's the question of their ban on blood transfusions
(and organ and eye transplants in the 1970's) based on an
obscure Old Testament text about not drinking the blood of an
animal, not that it's animal blood in the case of transfusions
nor, evidently, drinking. Many lives have been unnecessarily
lost due to this prohibition, another negative element in the
moral reckoning.
#Post#: 1399--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Val Date: February 20, 2023, 5:12 pm
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[quote author=Gregory link=topic=54.msg1305#msg1305
date=1676826956]
[quote author=Val link=topic=54.msg1265#msg1265 date=1676815870]
So I started this topic to get Thaddeans views on JW’s and
if they have had any interaction with the organisation, I do
find the members of the organisation to be very genuine
hardworking individuals but some of their beliefs a bit silly
like not celebrating birthdays or other nonspiritual holidays
and not taking full blood products..
Anyway …fire away
[/quote]
The JW's first and foremost are not remotely a Christian church
(they don't even use that word; it's 'the organisation' for them
and 'kingdom hall' for their meeting place) the
pseudo-theologians of what is essentially a bizarre, 19th
century millenarian sect founded by a religious charlatan
calling himself 'Pastor' Russell with a series of false
predictions, date after uncompleted date (1879, 1914, 1925,
1975, etc.) about the end of the world at Armageddon. Their
laughable interpretation of biblical theology would put the most
braindead religious simpleton to shame and yet, there they still
are - what's left of their piddling 8 million members in the
world today (pity about the 8 billion to be destroyed at
Armageddon, whenever that comes) standing in street squares with
their placards and nobody correctly giving them the time of day.
Many members have died because of their refusal of blood
transfusions. Also, according to my research, various organ and
eye transplants were refused in the 1970's only to be accepted
again later (hard luck on those who suffered the original ban.)
Val's take on their beliefs being "a bit silly" is a nice
understatement, but presumably out of kindness to his wife, who
presumably is still a member of the sect, undergoing certainly
its own last days (those of the world let's leave it in its own
due time.) As for them being in his experience nice, decent
folk, so what? There are countless people out there who are
nice, decent folk and have nothing to do with religion.
Let me reiterate. According to my research, there are, as I
said, around 8 million members of the 'organisation' today, a
pitiful growth of only around 2 million in the last three
decades. Let's be real. They're a species in danger of
extinction (and good riddance!)
[/quote]
Evening Gregory
Now I didn’t want to go down this route in defending any
religious organisation but! You have put a few cats amongst the
pigeons.
I only asked if any Thaddeans had any dealings with JW’s
individuals and what they thought of them.
First on Russel, I do know enough to say that he was not a
charlatan, when herindoors was studying back in the 80’s I
looked into this man in some serious study, Russel was born into
a very devout Presbyterian Christian family and spend many years
studying the bible, as a teenager Russell felt that the
Presbyterian church was lacking in something so he left, he
debated with many pastors at the time on the credibility of the
bible translation and on the Christian faith, he couldn’t
accept that a caring God would create hell a place of eternal
damnation for all who sinned would go at death.
At 18 he came into contact with Adventist preaching and
continued bible studies, for the next two years, his time spent
with Adventists led him (like many other of his kind) to believe
that Jesus had returned to the earth in invisible form and that
all who died before this time would be resurrected in 1878 and
that Armageddon would begin in 1914 as he Called the end of the
harvest.
He sold off his businesses and became a very wealthy man and
would be a multi-millionaire by today’s standards, from
here on he wrote and published many religious tracts concerning
the imminent end of times.
1878 came and went so he realised his biblical predictions and
timing for end of times was wrong so he split up with his
Adventists partners and started interpreting the bible and
published his own religious periodicals
Russell founded the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in 1881
soon he had a very big publishing and preaching business with 16
million of his books and booklets in print, he preached and
wrote thousands of sermons these were printed in many thousand
newspapers in many languages around the world, around this time
he became known as Pastor Russell and had become one of the best
known and most famous preacher in the world.
By the time of his death in 1916 his writings had become among
the most widely-distributed works in the world. When he died,
only the Bible and the Chinese almanac were in greater
circulation than his myriad of books and pamphlets.
After his death and when Joseph Rutherford took over the whole
system he created fell apart, Rutherford was accused of being
slightly corrupt in buying votes, anyways it took about 20 years
to recover from this major upheaval, maybe they haven’t
fully recovered yet.
But about Russell he was many things, stubborn, misguided, not
wiling to accept errors in his interpretations, maybe even
downright foolish but he was not a Charlatan, anyway its time
for a nice single malt
#Post#: 1403--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses
By: Gregory Date: February 21, 2023, 3:56 am
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Well, perhaps my choice of the term 'charlatan' was mistaken,
although during a court case he claimed to understand Biblical
Greek (vital for any serious commentary on the Bible), but as it
turned out he didn't even know the letters of the Greek alphabet
(totally different from ours) while his title of 'pastor' was
self-given. In any event, you've put up a stalwart defence of
him! Rutherford was certainly a shady figure (and not even a
legitimate judge) but let's not get bogged down in that can of
worms (or even the Diet of Worms...)
Let me explain my interest in the JW's. Several years ago, a
couple of them called at our flat and rather than close the door
in their faces (as many do) I invited them in for a chat and a
cup of English tea.(I won't turn away anyone who is a seeker
after truth, even if misguided as in their case.) I explained my
own religious background (a Methodist Christian, although
baptised and christened a Catholic) and we had a good
conversation, albeit disagreeing on just about every matter. As
one always interested in eschatology (offshoot of my university
training in history) I started delving into their background and
teachings (there's a wealth of information online) which
resulted in extensive knowledge about them. Moreover, a friend
of mine who is the pastor of an Evangelical church here in
Barcelona is an ex-JW so he was able to fill me in on a lot of
details**. I still see the original pair in the street from time
to time and with a friendly chat, although less since Covid and
they seem to concentrate now on fixed stands in public places
with placards and leaflets. I have also engaged those (different
ones in different places) in conversation, but to no avail.
They've put all their trust in the 'organisation', despite all
the changes in many of their teachings over the years and
they've seemingly stopped their date-setting for the end of the
world.
Well, enough of my story. I raised some serious issues in my
last post which might be worth addressing. Incidentally,I know
they've modified some aspects of their doctrine on blood
transfusions (artificial blood types, plasma, etc.) but the
stark fact remains that many JW's in the past have died because
of this strange doctrine, not shared by any other religious
body, not even other millenarian groups like the Seventh Day
Adventists.
**He, his wife and son, also ex-JW's, were 'disfellowshipped'
and shunned by his former co-religionists, including the
families (still JW's) of himself and his wife.
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