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#Post#: 5497--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catholic News
By: Gregory Date: May 21, 2023, 3:12 pm
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No, Leslie, I don't 'believe what I like'. I believe the facts,
which I outlined in my last post and which you choose to ignore
or to come up with contrary information, if it even exists,
rather than a curt, one-line dismissal. And the established
facts are that over 4000 other people survived the explosion
within the same area as the four priests. If only those four had
survived, it would have been much more convincing, but not over
4000 people. Also, the assertion by someone in your link that
the priests suffered no after effects is untrue. The information
about their subsequent radiation sickness was clearly not made
up. It's based on recorded information at the time with names
and hospital records and eyewitness testimony, including the
priests' own rector.
I have no axe to grind either way and no anti-religious agenda,
just depending on factual information. If you want to simply
deny all of that (which would require proof as I said) then I'm
afraid it's you who wishes to believe what you like.
#Post#: 5498--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catholic News
By: Leslie Date: May 21, 2023, 3:48 pm
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The facts are that the priests and other people who survived the
explosion are certainly in the minority, and at least one of
them did not suffer from radiation sickness. I believe that
based on the facts of the article, which were not contradicted
by the author of that book you quote from,(the book gave
additional facts) is a miracle.
Whether it is a miracle or not is up to you.
Miracles in general are approved only after much testing, as at
Lourdes. This one has not been called a miracle by the church as
far as I know. This one I happen to believe in as one priest was
whirled around by the explosion, dropped on the ground and apart
from some fragments of glass in his neck was uninjured. The
large building is seen to be standing among an area of land
that is mainly flattened by the explosion, and of course many
people will be dead.
#Post#: 5499--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catholic News
By: Lyn Date: May 21, 2023, 4:29 pm
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It was a miracle that any in the vicinity survived and doubly so
for those who suffered minimal or no radiation sickness,
particularly no long term effects. However it was that way for
some. Had it been me I would have considered it to be a miracle
and given great thanks for my good fortune.
Miracles, big and small, happen all the time. They can
sometimes be explained rationally but that does not detract from
them being miraculous to the person concerned.
#Post#: 5514--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catholic News
By: Gregory Date: May 22, 2023, 3:31 am
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Very good post, Lyn; I agree with every word.
I've found two definitions of a miracle, the first being the
most common which attributes it to divine intervention:
"an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by
natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a
divine agency." (Many recorded examples.)
The second has a broader meaning and is, perhaps, more
colloquial:
"a remarkable event or development that brings very welcome
consequences." (eg. It's a miracle we weren't killed.)
I think there are a lot of seemingly anomalous, exceptional
events which seem miraculous in the first sense but may have
other causes, such as sheer contingency, fortuity, location
variables, etc. Each of us must make our own minds up on their
origin but I agree that if we escape unscathed from some
horrendous situation, or at least survive, we should feel
thankful.
#Post#: 5515--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catholic News
By: Leslie Date: May 22, 2023, 3:50 am
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I would define a miracle as a supernatural act of God defying
natural law and done for the good of the person receiving the
benefit. Usually by the prayerful intercession of a Saint , but
not necessarily so. It could be direct from God, or as has been
known to happen, to a person at a religious shrine, such as
Lourdes a miracle not desired by the person receiving it who was
an atheist until this miracle of physical healing occurred.
After that his atheism disappeared.
#Post#: 5516--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catholic News
By: Lyn Date: May 22, 2023, 4:04 am
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That is one definition of a miracle and I know many say it is
the only accurate one. I don't think it matters too much, what
is miraculous to me may not be so to you and vice versa. I
believe miracles happen through the grace of God, have
experienced a couple and know of a few but others may think they
were just good fortune or coincidence, it's not worth splitting
hairs.
Greg quoted one definition: "a remarkable event or development
that brings very welcome consequences." (eg. It's a miracle we
weren't killed.). That seems pretty good to me.
#Post#: 5517--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catholic News
By: Leslie Date: May 22, 2023, 4:16 am
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[quote author=Lyn link=topic=50.msg5499#msg5499 date=1684704581
Miracles, big and small, happen all the time. They can
sometimes be explained rationally but that does not detract from
them being miraculous to the person concerned.
[/quote]
by Lyn
If they can be explained rationally, then by my definition of a
miracle, they are not miracles. Some people as Greg defines it
could be the recipients of what is
called miraculous in a colloquial sense. But, if so they are not
true miracles .
#Post#: 5523--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catholic News
By: Lyn Date: May 22, 2023, 6:15 am
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That's your belief and you're not alone, Leslie.
At the end of the day it really doesn't matter, God knows what
is in our hearts.
#Post#: 5790--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catholic News
By: Leslie Date: May 29, 2023, 1:51 pm
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When I studied some philosophy, many years ago, one professor
said something like this...what we believe today is the result
of what some philosopher's teaching was 100 years ago. And that
was said at St. Michael's College, in class. It is hard to prove
correct. However,the current attitude to religion is shaped in
England today by John William Draper and Andrew Dickson White,
revisionist nineteenth-century historians who portrayed science
and Christianity being at war with one another. Other later
writers do not agree, and neither do I . New Atheists draw on
Draper's History of the Conflict Between Religion and
Science(1874)and A History of the Warfare of Science with
Theology in Christendom (1896) by White for some of their
inspiration.
The misinformation in the effect on the populace of England is
hard to dislodge.
Witness the views of Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens Stephen
Hawkins and physicist Lawrence Krauss, whose views on the
conflict are still believed.
EDIT
Those two writers Draper and White were influenced greatly by
Charles Darwin himself.
#Post#: 5793--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catholic News
By: Lyn Date: May 30, 2023, 2:14 am
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I will have to unpick your post sine die, Leslie. My impression
of the practice of Christian faith in England is that it is
varied and subject to many influences. Like yourself, I see no
contradiction between faith and science but that is one issue
upon which belief varies.
"Witness the views of Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens
Stephen Hawkins and physicist Lawrence Krauss, whose views on
the conflict are still believed."
Yes but they are/were people without belief in God.
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